Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

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  • Markus G. Klötzer

    #16
    Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

    Jan Steffen <jan.steffen@gm x.net> wrote:
    [color=blue][color=green]
    >> Do you have an URI?[/color]
    >
    > of course:
    > http://www.germanbreastgroup.de/herceptin/
    > http://www.germanbreastgroup.de/pregnancy/
    > are two pages I lately translated. Comments welcome[/color]

    trastuzumab seems to be a proper noun therefore has to be capitalized.

    The part on pregancy seems a very loose translation - iE from bc the
    most common c over the age of 25 it turns to bc being the most common
    c in pregant women over 25 - which could be assumed but you say there
    is not enaugh data, therefore it cannot be proven (taking into account
    the effect of previous pregnancies and breastfeeding on the cancer
    rate)
    [color=blue]
    > (not only on the language)[/color]

    "<" & ">" seem to be way out of proportion to the rest of the text.
    [color=blue]
    > Do yout think this is a sensible approach?[/color]

    Personally I think the concept of language selection is ideal on
    "portal"-pages, after that there should be a possibility to switch to
    another language (see the procedure at www.php.net)

    Especially in the above case althaugh my browser would ask for English
    (And I would not change that) I would like to be able to compare the
    various languages to look for the subtleties (In your case that would
    apply as medical terms in English seem to be a lot looser than in
    German, where they are Latin-based)

    hth

    mgk
    --
    Only borrow money from pessimists,
    they don't expect it back.

    Comment

    • Alan J. Flavell

      #17
      Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

      On Thu, Sep 4, Jan Steffen inscribed on the eternal scroll:
      [color=blue]
      > I just started to write a kind of Help-file[/color]

      dazu auch http://www.netandmore.de/faq/cgi/fom?file=1222 (German)
      [color=blue]
      > http://www.germanbreastgroup.de/help.html#sprachen
      > to educate users about things like that(just in german so far). Do
      > yout think this is a sensible approach?[/color]

      Yes, but how does a reader find their way to this technical-
      information page? And it's generally recommended (and certainly I
      would recommend it) to have an explicit link, somewhere on each page
      (no national flags please! *) to the other available language(s).

      (* http://tech.irt.org/articles/js173/ )

      Comment

      • Jan Steffen

        #18
        Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

        Markus G. Klötzer wrote:[color=blue]
        > Jan Steffen <jan.steffen@gm x.net> wrote:[color=green]
        >>http://www.germanbreastgroup.de/herceptin/
        >>http://www.germanbreastgroup.de/pregnancy/[/color]
        >
        > trastuzumab seems to be a proper noun therefore has to be capitalized.[/color]

        Right, thanks for spotting that.
        [color=blue]
        > The part on pregancy seems a very loose translation - iE from bc the
        > most common c over the age of 25 it turns to bc being the most common
        > c in pregant women over 25 - which could be assumed but you say there
        > is not enaugh data, therefore it cannot be proven (taking into account
        > the effect of previous pregnancies and breastfeeding on the cancer
        > rate)[/color]

        Ok, let me think about that for a day or two...
        [color=blue]
        > "<" & ">" seem to be way out of proportion to the rest of the text.[/color]

        Sorry, I didn't got you there. Please explain.
        (Layout problem? Browser problem? Which page?)
        [color=blue]
        > Personally I think the concept of language selection is ideal on
        > "portal"-pages, after that there should be a possibility to switch to
        > another language (see the procedure at www.php.net)[/color]

        So far only a few of the resurces are bilingual. So I think
        content-negotiation is the way to go.
        But for the users who don't know what they can do about that in
        their browser, I'd like to explain that a little bit.

        [color=blue]
        > Especially in the above case althaugh my browser would ask for English
        > (And I would not change that) I would like to be able to compare the
        > various languages to look for the subtleties (In your case that would
        > apply as medical terms in English seem to be a lot looser than in
        > German, where they are Latin-based)[/color]

        Hard-wired links to the translated version are provided of course.

        Jan

        --
        Axis of Evil! Countries not signing the UN Convention on the Right
        of the Child:
        Somalia, USA

        Comment

        • Jan Steffen

          #19
          Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

          Alan J. Flavell wrote:[color=blue]
          > On Thu, Sep 4, Jan Steffen inscribed on the eternal scroll:
          >
          > dazu auch http://www.netandmore.de/faq/cgi/fom?file=1222 (German)[/color]

          Thanks, content negotiation in principle is working fine.
          The users are the problem ;-)
          I don't think I'll go and reinvent the wheel with a
          cookie-JS-php-etc language-choosing-mechanism.
          Better to educate the users how to use their browser, I think.
          [color=blue][color=green]
          >>http://www.germanbreastgroup.de/help.html#sprachen[/color]
          > Yes, but how does a reader find their way to this technical-
          > information page?[/color]

          They just have to use a decent browser and follow <link rel="help">
          ;-)
          In fact I don't really want them to find it (yet). Still working on
          the file. That's why I ask for comments here.
          (I know you all speak German, don't you?)
          [color=blue]
          > And it's generally recommended (and certainly I
          > would recommend it) to have an explicit link, somewhere on each page
          > (no national flags please! *) to the other available language(s).[/color]

          Full ACK with the explicit link.
          And I'm surely not gonna start that flag-discussion again.

          Cheers,
          Jan

          --
          Enter any 11-digit prime number to continue...

          Comment

          • Markus G. Klötzer

            #20
            Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

            Jan Steffen <jan.steffen@gm x.net> wrote:
            [color=blue]
            > Markus G. Klötzer wrote:[color=green]
            >> Jan Steffen <jan.steffen@gm x.net> wrote:[color=darkred]
            >>> http://www.germanbreastgroup.de/herceptin/[/color][/color][/color]
            [color=blue]
            >[color=green]
            >> "<" & ">" seem to be way out of proportion to the rest of the text.[/color]
            >
            > Sorry, I didn't got you there. Please explain.
            > (Layout problem? Browser problem? Which page?)
            >[/color]



            You use two different "<"s in this section.

            (Using IE 6.0)

            cu

            mgk
            --
            WYTYSYDG - What you thought you saw, you didn't get.

            Comment

            • Tina Holmboe

              #21
              Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

              "Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@mail.c ern.ch> exclaimed in <Pine.LNX.4.53. 0309041117590.1 3628@lxplus013. cern.ch>:
              [color=blue]
              > (* http://tech.irt.org/articles/js173/ )[/color]

              Quote:
              "Probably the most common motivation for using a flag as a language
              symbol is that it is expected to catch the eye better than text does."

              To be frank, I am a little weary of this myth. Yes, if you explicitly ask
              a person:

              "Would the Union Jack [commonly believed to be the English flag -- Ed]
              as a language selection icon feel insulting to you because it is a symbol
              of a former colonial master?"

              then the answer might just be "Yes". Should you ask

              "Would you, as a Finn, feel insulted by having to choose the flag for
              Sweden to read something in swedish ?"

              then another person might, again, answer yes.

              However, if you stand still on a street and ask people you meet whether
              they would *associate* the language English with the Union Jack, the
              answer would *also* be "yes".

              The single most common motivation for using a flag as a language symbol
              is because people readily associate the two. Oddly enough, humans that
              speak Spanish seem to connect "Spanish flag" with "Spanish".

              Most people - most run-of-the-mill human beings - don't spend their time
              reflecting over whether the Union Jack as a symbol for English is insulting
              because England did some horribly stupid things in the past.

              They do, however, when one ask them, seem to readily make the entirely
              appropriate association.

              Did anyone actually *ask* ? Well, during the rather large work with
              accessibility we were involved in this spring, that question WAS asked
              of users.

              The answer - many immigrants to Sweden find that flags as language
              selection tools is a good method. Quote:

              "Flags are easy to identify and see"

              This method is common and known. Using flags as symbols may be
              philosophically "wrong", but it is something that work for users simply
              because it is in common use outside of the web.

              "Flag as a symbol of language - stupidity or insult?"

              Neither. A complex question, yes, but both "stupid" and "insulting" are
              far too harsh words.



              is scanned from a box grabbed from a shelf above my head. If thats not
              real-life enough, I can certainly go out and take a picture of the
              nearest tourist office.

              Of course, a counter argument could be made that a Union Jack outside a
              tourist office means that people from the United Kingdom are welcome
              inside. Or that they have the United Kingdom in there. Or that they aim
              for information only towards people from the United Kingdom ... anything
              but "English Spoken Here".

              To quote a friend:

              "Flags are an intuitive way of labelling a language. It works."

              If making things easier for users grates against someones philosophical
              ideals, so be it.

              --
              - Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies
              tina@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
              [+46] 0708 557 905

              Comment

              • Jan Steffen

                #22
                Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

                Markus G. Klötzer wrote:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
                >>>>http://www.germanbreastgroup.de/herceptin/[/color][/color]
                >[color=green][color=darkred]
                >>>"<" & ">" seem to be way out of proportion to the rest of the text.[/color][/color]
                >
                > http://www.mgk.org.uk/images/breastcancer.jpg
                > You use two different "<"s in this section.
                > (Using IE 6.0)[/color]

                Oops, seems that &ge; and > don't harmonise well on some systems.
                I forgot to change the > to &gt;
                These &ge; on your screenshot are looking awful anyways. Which
                system is that? I can't reproduce that on my IE6.0 on Win2K.

                Cheers, Jan

                --
                Wise men don't need advice. Fools don't take it. [Benjamin Franklin]

                Comment

                • Markus G. Klötzer

                  #23
                  Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

                  tina@greytower. net (Tina Holmboe) wrote:
                  [color=blue]
                  > Most people - most run-of-the-mill human beings - don't spend their time
                  > reflecting over whether the Union Jack as a symbol for English is insulting
                  > because England did some horribly stupid things in the past.[/color]

                  <nitpick>

                  Union Jack is not the English flag.

                  </nitpick>

                  cu

                  mgk
                  --
                  I live in Wales

                  Comment

                  • Tina Holmboe

                    #24
                    Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

                    "Markus G. Klötzer" <DengejaaUveso@ eze-domains.com> exclaimed in <bj7dhs.62s.1@n ews.mgk.org.uk> :
                    [color=blue]
                    > tina@greytower. net (Tina Holmboe) wrote:
                    >[color=green]
                    >> Most people - most run-of-the-mill human beings - don't spend their time
                    >> reflecting over whether the Union Jack as a symbol for English is insulting
                    >> because England did some horribly stupid things in the past.[/color]
                    >
                    > <nitpick>
                    >
                    > Union Jack is not the English flag.
                    >
                    > </nitpick>[/color]

                    I am quite aware of that - I even told you so in my posting. HAND.

                    --
                    - Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies
                    tina@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
                    [+46] 0708 557 905

                    Comment

                    • Markus G. Klötzer

                      #25
                      Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

                      Jan Steffen <jan.steffen@gm x.net> wrote:
                      [color=blue]
                      > Oops, seems that &ge; and > don't harmonise well on some systems.
                      > I forgot to change the > to &gt;[/color]

                      first I hear of &ge; and &le; I always use &lt; and &gt;
                      (=equal, makes sense now)
                      [color=blue]
                      > These &ge; on your screenshot are looking awful anyways. Which
                      > system is that? I can't reproduce that on my IE6.0 on Win2[/color]

                      XP, but it might be a fontsize problem, it looks better in "Largest".

                      cu

                      mgk
                      --
                      There are two rules for success:
                      1) Never tell everything you know.
                      -Roger H. Lincoln-

                      Comment

                      • Andreas Prilop

                        #26
                        Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

                        tina@greytower. net (Tina Holmboe) wrote:
                        [color=blue]
                        > "Alan J. Flavell" exclaimed:[color=green]
                        >> (* http://tech.irt.org/articles/js173/ )[/color][/color]

                        That's an old version of the current

                        [color=blue]
                        > Oddly enough, humans that
                        > speak Spanish seem to connect "Spanish flag" with "Spanish".[/color]

                        Perhaps "Europeans that speak Spanish" do so. But I doubt that the
                        majority of Spanish-speaking humans in the USA and in Latin America
                        will recognize the Spanish flag as a symbol for the language Spanish.
                        [color=blue]
                        > To quote a friend:
                        > "Flags are an intuitive way of labelling a language. It works."[/color]

                        Sounds like: "Why? It works in Internet Explorer."

                        --
                        But thats what FP puts in to the page, so i asume thats correct
                        Harry H. Arends in microsoft.publi c.frontpage.cli ent

                        Comment

                        • Eric Jarvis

                          #27
                          Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

                          Andreas Prilop wrote:[color=blue]
                          > tina@greytower. net (Tina Holmboe) wrote:
                          >[color=green]
                          > > "Alan J. Flavell" exclaimed:[color=darkred]
                          > >> (* http://tech.irt.org/articles/js173/ )[/color][/color]
                          >
                          > That's an old version of the current
                          > http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/flags.html
                          >[color=green]
                          > > Oddly enough, humans that
                          > > speak Spanish seem to connect "Spanish flag" with "Spanish".[/color]
                          >
                          > Perhaps "Europeans that speak Spanish" do so. But I doubt that the
                          > majority of Spanish-speaking humans in the USA and in Latin America
                          > will recognize the Spanish flag as a symbol for the language Spanish.
                          >[color=green]
                          > > To quote a friend:
                          > > "Flags are an intuitive way of labelling a language. It works."[/color]
                          >
                          > Sounds like: "Why? It works in Internet Explorer."
                          >[/color]

                          it also depends on what languages you use...anyone want to suggest the
                          appropriate flags for Arabic, Swahili, Telugu, Malayalam?...th ese are
                          languages spoken by many millions of people and Arabic in particular is
                          one of the most useful to put on the web

                          flags to represent languages don't work and can't work...but one can
                          pretend they do by limiting oneself severely and not worrying about
                          insulting or offending visitors to the site

                          --
                          eric

                          "Hey Lord don't ask me questions
                          There ain't no answer in me"

                          Comment

                          • Tina Holmboe

                            #28
                            Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

                            Eric Jarvis <web@ericjarvis .co.uk> exclaimed in <MPG.19c31b0384 e6c90098b6a4@ne ws.cis.dfn.de>:
                            [color=blue]
                            > flags to represent languages don't work and can't work...but one can[/color]

                            And, yet, people think they do. People who, for instance, are native
                            speakers of the languages you mentioned.

                            Perhaps the insult here is from those that claim this method do not
                            work. The people who look for these languages seem to believe it to
                            be a good method.

                            I confess that I did not expect anything less than such a rebuttal. This
                            does not make me less confused.

                            When I speak to users - e.g. non-Swedish speaking human beings who look
                            for information in their language on Swedish government websites - I
                            hear "Flags are a good method".

                            When I listen to people here, I hear the opposite. Why is this ?


                            [color=blue]
                            > pretend they do by limiting oneself severely and not worrying about
                            > insulting or offending visitors to the site[/color]

                            Visitors think flags work well. You think they do not. Who is being
                            offensive here ?

                            The question "Let me show you something. Tell me which language you
                            think of when you see ... this! [up with some flag]" has become a
                            hobby of mine.

                            So far I have not run across a single person among non-philosopher type
                            people agreeing with the views expressed in the article quoted. This leads
                            me to believe the article has gotten it wrong.

                            This might be worth your while considering, Eric.

                            --
                            - Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies
                            tina@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
                            [+46] 0708 557 905

                            Comment

                            • Tina Holmboe

                              #29
                              Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

                              Andreas Prilop <nhtcapri@rrz n-user.uni-hannover.de> exclaimed in <05092003212855 4412%nhtcapri@r rzn-user.uni-hannover.de>:
                              [color=blue][color=green]
                              >> To quote a friend:
                              >> "Flags are an intuitive way of labelling a language. It works."[/color]
                              >
                              > Sounds like: "Why? It works in Internet Explorer."[/color]

                              No. It sounds like: "Yes, flags is a method I'm used to from non-web
                              things. Good choice."

                              It's that pesky real world intruding again. You may embrace it or not, it
                              is your choice after all.

                              --
                              - Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies
                              tina@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
                              [+46] 0708 557 905

                              Comment

                              • Alan J. Flavell

                                #30
                                Re: Multilingual websites and web-crawlers

                                On Fri, Sep 5, Andreas Prilop inscribed on the eternal scroll:
                                [color=blue][color=green]
                                > > "Alan J. Flavell" exclaimed:[color=darkred]
                                > >> (* http://tech.irt.org/articles/js173/ )[/color][/color]
                                >
                                > That's an old version of the current
                                > http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/flags.html[/color]

                                Sorry, I was away from my usual bookmarks, and that was what Google
                                produced first. The substantive issue seems to be the same, anyway.

                                Tina had unfortunately opined:[color=blue][color=green]
                                > > Oddly enough, humans that
                                > > speak Spanish seem to connect "Spanish flag" with "Spanish".[/color][/color]

                                That seemed to me to be almost, if not quite, the worst possible
                                example to choose (the worst being the Union Flag for English, unless
                                you happen to be British, in which case the Stars and Stripes is
                                probably the worst choice...)
                                [color=blue]
                                > Perhaps "Europeans that speak Spanish" do so. But I doubt that the
                                > majority of Spanish-speaking humans in the USA and in Latin America
                                > will recognize the Spanish flag as a symbol for the language Spanish.[/color]

                                Quite.

                                Comment

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