Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

[Brian]

Re: Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

Kris wrote:[color=blue]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Need I round up a dozen acquaintances so I can say "we're users
>>> and we don't care"?[/color]
>>
>> Only if you want someone else to roundup her or his
>> aquaintenances who hate them.[/color]
>
> I figure it is not about what exactly your choice is, but about the
> fact of having one.[/color]

Of course. I was just pointing out the futility of anecdotal evidence.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Brian Jorgenson]

Re: Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

bjorgenson@char ter.net (Brian Jorgenson) wrote in message news:<34ec3ea7. 0308270748.2bea 4413@posting.go ogle.com>...[color=blue]
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MPG.19b5c 19e25b6d6cb98b2 03@news.odyssey .net>...[color=green]
> > In article <34ec3ea7.03082 61017.61836036@ posting.google. com> in
> > comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html, Brian Jorgenson
> > <bjorgenson@cha rter.net> wrote:[color=darkred]
> > >On my web page, I have a few hyperlinks with target frame of _blank.
> > >The hyperlink brings up a second window, but everytime I click on thie
> > >hperlink, it keeps bringing up a new window and not defaulting the the
> > >first active window. How do I make a hyperlink point to the active
> > >window? I don not want the hyperlink to default to the same page. I do
> > >want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.[/color]
> >
> > Fist, be aware that a _lot_ of people will regard opening up even
> > one extra window as an unfriendly act.
> >
> > That said, don't use target="_blank" , which means "new window". Use
> > target="BrianJo rgenson" and then if such a window is already open it
> > will be reused.[/color]
>
>
> This is great target="web page" works but when I click on the
> hyperlink again, it does not make the new page active. It still
> remains minimized and does not become a full screen.[/color]





Allright, let me explain this a little better. Let say you visit a web
page with no frames. On this page, there is a hyperlink that opens a
new window (_blank). Now we have 2 windows open. The orginal page and
now the new page opened from the hyperlink. Now I minimize the new
page and the orginal page is still open. Everybody still with me? On
the orginal page, I click on the hperlink again and it brings up a
second window. Now I have the orginal window, a minimized window , and
now a third new window. You see, I don't want a third window. I want
the hyperlink to restore the minimized window back to an active
window.

[Brian]

Re: Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

John wrote:[color=blue]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> my present choice would be to leave it on "allow" because in 15
>>> years of web surfing[/color]
>>
>> Oh. 15 years of web surfing? Which web are we talking about here?
>> The Berners-Lee thingie called WWW that started around 13 years
>> ago?[/color]
>
> With putting kids through college and a heart attack, the last 10
> years *feel* like 15, but I should have caught that before posting.
> I humbly submit to the lashes.[/color]

Corporal punishment? Geez, ciwa* is getting brutal these days. :-D

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[John]

Re: Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:15:07 +0100 me@privacy.net
a/k/a Headless posted:[color=blue]
> You still fail to get the point, it's not about your preference, and
> it's not about _my_ preference. It's about allowing _all_ users to
> exercise their preference.
>
> You persist in trying to drag this into a "who's right: no new windows
> fans, or new windows fans", what you fail to get is that both are right.[/color]

I never said that people who don't like them are wrong or that authors
who use them are right. I do think there may be cases where a new window
could be an appropriate design choice. But my main objection to your
remarks was that you seemed to be saying that opening new windows
deprived *all* users of choice or forced an unwanted intrusion on *all*
users. Admittedly you just said _users_ but that seemed to imply a
homogeneous group. If that's not what you meant, then I misunderstood.

Additionally, you made it sound like poor Alex in Clockwork Orange
strapped to the chair with his eyelids propped open and forced to watch
gruesome images flashing on the screen. Maybe that's how you feel.

Unlike Alex, browser users can easily close the unwanted window. Some
would say you shouldn't *have* to close the window in the first place.
I'd say it's no worse than having to "back" out after clicking into a
page that's all flash or javascript or tiny fonts or playing sounds or
any of the other things a user might prefer not to happen when he clicks
a link. Sure, you can set preferences so most of those things don't
work, but you still have to click "back" out of the page once you
realize you've stepped in crap.

Maybe some would say that using target="_blank" is like using javascript
to take over the scroll bar or status bar or to resize the window. I'd
agree those are GUI issues, but I'd distinguish using scripts to alter
the GUI from using valid HTML to invoke normal behavior from the
browser. Yes, I know that just because you can doesn't mean you should.

In another post in this thread, Stan Brown told the OP, "First, be aware
that a _lot_ of people will regard opening up even one extra window as
an unfriendly act."

I have no quarrel with that statement.

Stan went on to say, "That said, don't use target="_blank" , which means
"new window". Use target="BrianJo rgenson" and then if such a window is
already open it will be reused."

Which finally answered the OP's HTML question.

You've clarified that users who *do" object to new windows *do" have a
choice and *can* block them, at least in Mozilla. Unfortunately, that
preference setting is something most users don't know about. Who needs
to be educated, authors or users? How about both, along with suggestions
to the browser makers?

In the meantime, I really would be interested in your (or anybody's)
opinion about including a "new window" warning in the link's title
attribute.

John

[John]

Re: Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:02:10 +0200 philipp.lenssen @bb-k.com
a/k/a Philipp Lenssen posted:[color=blue]
> If I had the choice, I'd turn off all open-in-new-window behavior (and a
> lot of other things). It's just annoying. I can open new windows myself.
> I'm not saying most people would know how to do this or care to figure
> out. But I doubt that those users are good at handling multiple windows.
> (And e.g. Nielsen supports that view -- the issue popped up in two of
> his "biggest web mistakes" rants.)[/color]

Is this one of the Nielsen articles you refer to?

<http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~pahautan/demo1harj2.htm>

And, Headless knows where the "turn off open in new window" switch in
Mozilla is. He didn't tell me where, but I think this:

<http://www.mozillafoundation.org/catalog/end-
user/customizing/briefprefs.html >

tells how to use this: <about:config >

I think it's a matter of changing the value for
"browser.block. target_new_wind ow" from "false" to "true" (omitting quote
marks), but this is quite possibly beyond my expertise. Anybody who's
reading this will hopefully correct this if I'm wrong.

John

[John]

Re: Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:52:54 GMT usenet1@mangymu tt.com.invalid-remove-
this-part a/k/a Brian posted:
[color=blue]
> John wrote:[color=green]
> > With putting kids through college and a heart attack, the last 10
> > years *feel* like 15, but I should have caught that before posting.
> > I humbly submit to the lashes.[/color]
>
> Corporal punishment? Geez, ciwa* is getting brutal these days. :-D[/color]

Just virtual punishment, but the pen is mightier than the whip, er,
something like that... I would've just offered to slap myself silly, but
I was already red-faced.

John

[Stan Brown]

Re: Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

In article <34ec3ea7.03082 81845.7ed73122@ posting.google. com> in
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html, Brian Jorgenson
<bjorgenson@cha rter.net> wrote:[color=blue]
>Allright, let me explain this a little better. Let say you visit a web
>page with no frames. On this page, there is a hyperlink that opens a
>new window (_blank). Now we have 2 windows open. The orginal page and
>now the new page opened from the hyperlink. Now I minimize the new
>page and the orginal page is still open. Everybody still with me? On
>the orginal page, I click on the hperlink again and it brings up a
>second window. Now I have the orginal window, a minimized window , and
>now a third new window. You see, I don't want a third window. I want
>the hyperlink to restore the minimized window back to an active
>window.[/color]

Sigh.

I guess you didn't like the answers you got the first time around.
Several of us both told you how to do this (to the extent that it
can be done) and why opening _any_ extra windows is a bad idea.

Do you really think you'll get different advice this time?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA

http://OakRoadSystems.com/

HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

[Steve Pugh]

Re: Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

bjorgenson@char ter.net (Brian Jorgenson) wrote:
[color=blue]
>Allright, let me explain this a little better. Let say you visit a web
>page with no frames. On this page, there is a hyperlink that opens a
>new window (_blank). Now we have 2 windows open. The orginal page and
>now the new page opened from the hyperlink. Now I minimize the new
>page and the orginal page is still open. Everybody still with me? On
>the orginal page, I click on the hperlink again and it brings up a
>second window. Now I have the orginal window, a minimized window , and
>now a third new window. You see, I don't want a third window. I want
>the hyperlink to restore the minimized window back to an active
>window.[/color]

To repeat what has already been said, but which you seem not to have
taken in -

If you use target="_blank" then you open a new window.
So don't use target="_blank" .

If you use target="somenam e" then you reuse the window named somename.
If you want to give focus to that window you will need to use
JavaScript and accept that a portion of your audience does not have
JavaScript enabled.

Now, you said "I don't want a third window". What about those users
who don't want the second window?
If YOU want the second window then you can open the second window
yourself.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[Jim Dabell]

Re: Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

Brian Jorgenson wrote:
[snip][color=blue]
> Allright, let me explain this a little better. Let say you visit a web
> page with no frames. On this page, there is a hyperlink that opens a
> new window (_blank). Now we have 2 windows open. The orginal page and
> now the new page opened from the hyperlink. Now I minimize the new
> page and the orginal page is still open. Everybody still with me? On
> the orginal page, I click on the hperlink again and it brings up a
> second window. Now I have the orginal window, a minimized window , and
> now a third new window. You see, I don't want a third window.[/color]

Why not? At the point at which you minimised the new page, what were you
thinking? If you didn't want that page, then why not close it? If you did
want it, then why would you intentionally replace it with another page?

[color=blue]
> I want the hyperlink to restore the minimized window back to an active
> window.[/color]

If you had closed the new window when you were done with it, then a "new new
window" would have popped up.

--
Jim Dabell

[George Lund]

Re: Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

In message <MPG.19b6c52a25 4f397398b21a@ne ws.odyssey.net> , Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> writes[color=blue]
>Be careful! Some browsers at least use Alt-F4 in the Microsoft
>standard way, to mean "Close program". Of course, as part of its war
>against standards, Microsoft Internet Explorer does not follow
>Microsoft's own published standard in this regard.[/color]

FWIW, in MS Windows Alt+F4 has always been 'Close Window' and has never
meant 'close entire program'. (Good thing too as by that logic the
whole of Windows could close if you pressed alt-f4 in an Internet
Explorer window! Thus you will find that ALt+F4 works in dialog boxes
too. Any browser doing as you suggest is wrong.

But in browsers that have an MDI, like Opera, the correct shortcut is
Ctrl+F4, and Alt+F4 will close the whole application window. MDIs are a
different case.

Not that I have contributed much useful here... sorry! :-)

--
George Lund

[Stan Brown]

Re: Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

In article <DqeHuQbkD8U$Ew Gd@ntlworld.com > in
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html, George Lund <george@lund.co .uk>
wrote:[color=blue]
>In message <MPG.19b6c52a25 4f397398b21a@ne ws.odyssey.net> , Stan Brown
><the_stan_brow n@fastmail.fm> writes[color=green]
>>Be careful! Some browsers at least use Alt-F4 in the Microsoft
>>standard way, to mean "Close program".[/color]
>
>FWIW, in MS Windows Alt+F4 has always been 'Close Window' and has never
>meant 'close entire program'. (Good thing too as by that logic the
>whole of Windows could close if you pressed alt-f4 in an Internet
>Explorer window! Thus you will find that ALt+F4 works in dialog boxes
>too. Any browser doing as you suggest is wrong.[/color]

Actually, we're both partly right and partly wrong. Windows 98 help,
under "Using shortcut keys in Windows" says Alt-F4 means "Close the
current window or quit a program."
[color=blue]
>But in browsers that have an MDI, like Opera, the correct shortcut is
>Ctrl+F4, and Alt+F4 will close the whole application window. MDIs are a
>different case.[/color]

This is how I understand things also. My error was thinking that the
MDI interface applied to all programs.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA

http://OakRoadSystems.com/

HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/