Browser with best CSS paged media support?

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  • Laurens

    Browser with best CSS paged media support?

    Hi,


    Which browser has the best CSS paged media support? [1]

    I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on paper to be
    presented to the bank. Now I cringe at doing this in Word, as I'm far more
    comfortable with hand-coding HTML and CSS(though I've never used the
    print-specific CSS elements).


    Thanks
    -Laurens

    [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/page.html


  • Philipp Lenssen

    #2
    Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

    In article <bhqp93$7b4$1@r eader10.wxs.nl> , spam@block.com says...[color=blue]
    >
    > Which browser has the best CSS paged media support?
    > (...)[/color]

    For CSS media print, I have the best experiences with Opera. It's the
    same as other browsers in most regards, but it respects page-break
    definitions.
    I suppose the latest Mozilla might also be worthwhile checking out.

    Comment

    • DU

      #3
      Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

      Laurens wrote:
      [color=blue]
      > Hi,
      >
      >
      > Which browser has the best CSS paged media support? [1]
      >
      > I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on paper to be
      > presented to the bank. Now I cringe at doing this in Word, as I'm far more
      > comfortable with hand-coding HTML and CSS(though I've never used the
      > print-specific CSS elements).
      >
      >
      > Thanks
      > -Laurens
      >
      > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/page.html
      >
      >[/color]




      but don't expect 100% reliable data from this chart. Browsers always
      have bugs; sometimes normal basic testcases do not identify browser
      bugs. And browsers are continually being improved.

      NS 7.1 support for the page media must be a lot better than the data in
      that chart as 12 months of bug fixes and improvements were added into NS
      7.1 over NS 7.0. It's not clear.

      Bug 24000: CSS page-break-before/after:always Support
      VERIFIED (karnaze) in Core - Printing: Output. Last updated 2014-04-26.


      Bug 115199: @page in CSS2 not implemented
      RESOLVED (bdahl) in Core - Printing: Output. Last updated 2020-02-13.


      Bug 132035: Support all page-break-* CSS2 properties


      DU
      --
      Javascript and Browser bugs:

      - Resources, help and tips for Netscape 7.x users and Composer
      - Interactive demos on Popup windows, music (audio/midi) in Netscape 7.x


      Comment

      • Andy Dingley

        #4
        Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

        On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:01:50 +0100, "PeterMcC" <peter@mccourt. org.uk>
        wrote:
        [color=blue]
        >I know it's not the answer you're wanting but I'd seriously suggest you use
        >a word processor or DTP package.[/color]

        How many UK banks do you know (for that's where we both are) who could
        accept a business plan by email ? My bank (Lloyds) doesn't even
        offer _phone_ access to my local branch.

        Comment

        • PeterMcC

          #5
          Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

          Andy Dingley wrote:[color=blue]
          > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:01:50 +0100, "PeterMcC" <peter@mccourt. org.uk>
          > wrote:
          >[color=green]
          >> I know it's not the answer you're wanting but I'd seriously suggest
          >> you use a word processor or DTP package.[/color]
          >
          > How many UK banks do you know (for that's where we both are) who could
          > accept a business plan by email ? My bank (Lloyds) doesn't even
          > offer _phone_ access to my local branch.[/color]

          I understood that the OP was planning on writing "... a business plan, which
          needs to be printed on paper to be presented to the bank."

          I'm afraid that I can't understand the point of your question; however, the
          answer, since my knowledge of banking procedures is limited to those of the
          one that I use, is 'one'.

          --
          PeterMcC
          If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
          inappropriate or offensive in any way,
          please ignore it and accept my apologies.

          Comment

          • Andy Dingley

            #6
            Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

            On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:52:38 +0100, "PeterMcC" <peter@mccourt. org.uk>
            wrote:
            [color=blue]
            >I understood that the OP was planning on writing "... a business plan, which
            >needs to be printed on paper to be presented to the bank."[/color]

            So printed HTML is perfectly adequate.

            The only time I send word-processed documents out electronically in
            ..doc format is when they're going to the (all too many) muppets who
            sincerely believe that Word is the only editor on the planet and that
            Outhouse is a mail client. I did go through a phase of sending PDF's
            out to recruiters in the IT agency (to stop the devious little slimes
            editing my CV), but found out that very few could print them.

            If you think that the only way to get a decent layout on paper is to
            use Word, then there's a bridge in Seattle you seem to have already
            bought. And that's without dredging up DocBook, *roff, TeX and DEC
            runoff.



            In response to the original question (from politeness more than useful
            information) then IMHE they're all still broken. I know I'm out of
            date here, but the CSS page-break situation still seems sufficiently
            unreliable that I've not yet felt the urge to re-evaluate it.

            Comment

            • news.frontiernet.net

              #7
              Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

              You have NO CONTROL over which browser your banker will use, assuming they
              even know what a browser is. And if they do know what a browser is, they
              might not know how to print a paper copy that will have a physical
              appearance better than crap.

              Use a word processor and submit it on paper or in PDF format. That way yu
              can count on the fonts and font sizes being what YOU want.

              "Laurens" <spam@block.com > wrote in message
              news:bhqp93$7b4 $1@reader10.wxs .nl...[color=blue]
              > Hi,
              >
              >
              > Which browser has the best CSS paged media support? [1]
              >
              > I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on paper to[/color]
              be[color=blue]
              > presented to the bank. Now I cringe at doing this in Word, as I'm far more
              > comfortable with hand-coding HTML and CSS(though I've never used the
              > print-specific CSS elements).
              >
              >
              > Thanks
              > -Laurens
              >
              > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/page.html
              >
              >[/color]


              Comment

              • Jukka K. Korpela

                #8
                Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

                "news.frontiern et.net" <rfrohrer@wgtn. net> wrote:
                [color=blue]
                > You have NO CONTROL over which browser your banker will use,[/color]

                Thank you for the usual bogosity alerts (incorrect From field,
                SHOUTING, upside-down quoting, etc.). Please continue using them until
                you have contribution to make.

                As usual, comprehensive quoting indicates lack of comprehensive
                reading. The question described:
                [color=blue][color=green]
                >> I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on
                >> paper to be presented to the bank.[/color][/color]

                There's no need for any banker to use any browser for that.
                [color=blue]
                > Use a word processor and submit it on paper or in PDF format. That
                > way yu can count on the fonts and font sizes being what YOU want.[/color]

                Word processors normally produce text in their proprietary formats,
                _not_ in PDF format. Anyway, what you describe is an attempt to fight
                against the strengths of the Web and of the HTML format.

                The real issue, which you have completely missed, was how to author in
                HTML _and_ have the document formatted nicely on paper. If the paper
                format is the only one in which the document is really needed, I would
                vote for MS Word. It _is_ a useful program, though partly poorly
                documented and with lots of irritating features. If the document should
                also be available in cross-platform format, maybe for use on the Web or
                in an intranet, then HTML format might be the best master format.

                Unfortunately the method of using CSS is still rather limited in that
                respect, though, depending on the nature of the document, it might work
                reasonably, if the page is printed Opera or Mozilla. The specifically
                page-oriented features of CSS work rather poorly at present, but for a
                business plan, it would probably be sufficient to create an edited copy
                of the page with "forced" page breaks (e.g. with page-break-before:
                always) using CSS. And this might mean that the author needs to work on
                that copy iteratively, using the Print Preview function of the browser
                to decide on the page breaks. It's a bit dull work, but probably
                tolerable. And setting fonts and font sizes in CSS works just fine for
                the purpose.

                --
                Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
                Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

                Comment

                • Toby A Inkster

                  #9
                  Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

                  news.frontierne t.net wrote:
                  [color=blue]
                  > Use a word processor and submit it on paper or in PDF format.[/color]

                  I assumed that Laurens would be submitting in paper format anyway, hence:

                  | I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on paper
                  | to be presented to the bank.

                  And in answer to the original question. Opera is far and away the best
                  browser for this sort of thing. It has one or two minor problems[1], but
                  no show-stoppers.

                  [1] For example, I don't think it yet can handle tables spilling over
                  multiple pages and using the <tfoot> and <thead> on each page.

                  --
                  Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS | mailto:tobyink@ goddamn.co.uk | pgp:0x6A2A7D39
                  aim:inka80 | icq:6622880 | yahoo:tobyink | jabber:tai@jabb er.linux.it
                  http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/ | "You've got spam!"
                  playing://(nothing)

                  Comment

                  • PeterMcC

                    #10
                    Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

                    Andy Dingley wrote:[color=blue]
                    > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:52:38 +0100, "PeterMcC" <peter@mccourt. org.uk>
                    > wrote:
                    >[color=green]
                    >> I understood that the OP was planning on writing "... a business
                    >> plan, which needs to be printed on paper to be presented to the
                    >> bank."[/color]
                    >
                    > So printed HTML is perfectly adequate.
                    >[/color]
                    <snip>[color=blue]
                    >
                    > If you think that the only way to get a decent layout on paper is to
                    > use Word, then there's a bridge in Seattle you seem to have already
                    > bought. And that's without dredging up DocBook, *roff, TeX and DEC
                    > runoff.
                    >[/color]

                    I have, for some years, laboured under the impression that preparing a
                    document for print would be best done using a word processor or DTP
                    package - I shall try marking up my next document in HTML, thanks for the
                    hint which I will pass on to my clients in the publishing industry. As
                    regards Seattle, I'm afraid that I have no idea how that links into my
                    suggestion of a word processor or DTP package - if it's a reference to
                    Microsoft's products, I'm afraid that you've picked up an inference from
                    elsewhere in the thread that wasn't mine.


                    --
                    PeterMcC
                    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
                    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
                    please ignore it and accept my apologies.

                    Comment

                    • Stephen Poley

                      #11
                      Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

                      On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:30:03 +0100, Andy Dingley
                      <dingbat@codesm iths.com> wrote:
                      [color=blue]
                      >On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:52:38 +0100, "PeterMcC" <peter@mccourt. org.uk>
                      >wrote:
                      >[color=green]
                      >>I understood that the OP was planning on writing "... a business plan, which
                      >>needs to be printed on paper to be presented to the bank."[/color]
                      >
                      >So printed HTML is perfectly adequate.[/color]

                      I have to disagree here. There is for example no way to specify page
                      headers and footers in HTML (except to the extent that <TITLE> is used
                      for such).

                      If the aim is to provide universal access to information, use HTML. If
                      you want to produce a printed document, use a word-processor. (Doesn't
                      have to be Word, of course.) A question of appropriate tools for the
                      job.

                      If you want to provide something via HTML, but also give yourself the
                      best option for printing a reasonably presentable copy, then Opera 7
                      seems to provide the best support for the CSS page-break properties at
                      present.

                      --
                      Stephen Poley


                      Comment

                      • Laurens

                        #12
                        Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

                        Thanks everyone for their responses.

                        I'm using an application that helps you set up a business plan(essentiall y
                        it's just a questionnaire). Now the good thing about this program is that it
                        stores its data in an XML file. My initial plan was to write the sections of
                        the business plan not covered by the questionnaire in XHTML, transform the
                        questionnaire XML data using XSLT to XHTML, and finally merge the results in
                        one document. Instead, I went with XSL:FO, which I didn't have any
                        experience with until yesterday. I transform both my XHTML document and the
                        questionnaire data to XSL:FO and run it through Apache FOP to produce a PDF.
                        FOP may have its limitations, but it works well enough for my purposes. The
                        end result is as good as anything I can produce in Word.


                        Thanks
                        -Laurens


                        Comment

                        • Stan Brown

                          #13
                          Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

                          In article <Xns93DC5F113DF EFjkorpelacstut fi@193.229.0.31 > in
                          comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html, Jukka K. Korpela
                          <jkorpela@cs.tu t.fi> wrote:[color=blue]
                          >Unfortunatel y the method of using CSS is still rather limited in that
                          >respect, though, depending on the nature of the document, it might work
                          >reasonably, if the page is printed Opera or Mozilla. The specifically
                          >page-oriented features of CSS work rather poorly at present, but for a
                          >business plan, it would probably be sufficient to create an edited copy
                          >of the page with "forced" page breaks (e.g. with page-break-before:
                          >always) using CSS. And this might mean that the author needs to work on
                          >that copy iteratively, using the Print Preview function of the browser
                          >to decide on the page breaks.[/color]

                          This is pretty much what I do with materials for my class, when
                          there is a particularly bad page break on the uncontrolled first
                          attempt at printing.

                          Be aware that Mozilla will not break pages on paper quite the same
                          as it does in Print Preview -- an annoying bug that is still with us
                          in 1.4 but I hope will be fixed un bel di.

                          --
                          Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA

                          HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
                          validator: http://validator.w3.org/
                          CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
                          validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

                          Comment

                          • Andrew Fedoniouk

                            #14
                            Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?


                            "Laurens" <spam@block.com > wrote in message
                            news:bhqp93$7b4 $1@reader10.wxs .nl...[color=blue]
                            > Hi,
                            >
                            >
                            > Which browser has the best CSS paged media support? [1]
                            >
                            > I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on paper to[/color]
                            be[color=blue]
                            > presented to the bank. Now I cringe at doing this in Word, as I'm far more
                            > comfortable with hand-coding HTML and CSS(though I've never used the
                            > print-specific CSS elements).
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            > -Laurens
                            >
                            > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/page.html
                            >
                            >[/color]


                            Comment

                            • Andrew Fedoniouk

                              #15
                              Re: Browser with best CSS paged media support?

                              Stay with Word.
                              Or with TeX if you prefer to focus on coding rather then on content.

                              Microsoft Word document object model is the best for printing page layout.

                              Forget about page breaks in the HTML document.
                              They will be useful only when something like <PAGEBODY> will appear.
                              Currently they are just nothing.

                              Andrew Fedoniouk.







                              Comment

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