Which version in LH for?

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  • Eric Jarvis

    #46
    Re: Which version in LH for?

    Tim wrote:[color=blue]
    > On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 05:33:02 GMT,
    > Jane Withnolastname <JaneWithnolast nameNOSPAM@yaho o.com> wrote:
    >[color=green][color=darkred]
    > >> Well, for the number of people here who would be so interested, it's
    > >> called a user survey. I ask people what they use. I know it's not as
    > >> high tech as sneaking a JavaScript in and checking under the hood, but
    > >> it is more honest and, as you will no doubt understand, more
    > >> effective.[/color][/color]
    >
    >
    > On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 06:17:42 GMT,
    > Greg Schmidt <gregs@trawna.c om> wrote:
    >[color=green]
    > > This is what's known in statistical circles as a self-selecting sample.
    > > While they can be useful, they are notoriously unreliable for
    > > determining facts. I'm not sure whether this would be more or less
    > > accurate than looking at user agent strings in your logs. Then again,
    > > if the only fact you're interested in is knowing whether the "majority
    > > of browsers" are using IE, I think any of us could have told you the
    > > answer without resorting to a survey. Last I checked, lawsuits were
    > > still ongoing because of that very fact.[/color]
    >
    > By way of illustrating Greg's (correct) assertion. I've had 15,000 hits
    > notch up on one of my pages in the last year (most of it in the last few
    > months), about 2,000 hits on the linked homepage, and I've received
    > about 56 e-mails from visitors about the site (thank god they all didn't
    > e-mail me). ;-\
    >
    > I have no idea about what the rest of the visitors thought about the
    > site, nor anything else about the site and them. Whether they found the
    > page accidentally, and only loaded enough of it to register as a hit,
    > before going elsewhere. Whether the page was what they wanted. Whether
    > they read it all. Whether they agreed with it. Whether those hit
    > counters are the same people reloading the page, or different people, or
    > even "people" visiting the site. How many visited without loading the
    > hit counter (it's only there for my own curiosity, anyway, as I don't
    > have access to the server logs). And so on.
    >
    > i.e. There's a plethora of "assumption s" that could be made about how
    > people used the site, and that's all that they are.
    >
    > snip[/color]

    actually you can go a little further than
    that...providin g you have access to logs that is

    you can look at trends month on month to see which
    referrers are gaining and losing ground, which can be a
    useful hint as to when different types of site promotion
    are likely to be most effective

    you can look at trends on the usage of individual pages
    to see where there may be pages that lose visitors

    etc

    what you can't look at is how many people are using the
    local caches at the big ISPs, at least not without
    compromising the usability of the site...and you haven't
    a cat in hells chance of deriving ANY usable information
    about browser usage, particularly since a lot of the
    locally cached access is liable to be linked with a
    preponderance of a specific browser (my ISP still ships
    IE5 as standard, then there are AOL and the various Web
    TV providers)

    so site stats are not useless...but there is no way site
    logs can ever provide any useful info on browser
    usage...and even if they could it isn't last month's
    browser usage that is important...it is what people will
    use between now and the next page redesign that matters,
    and experience shows that the two can be very different

    --
    eric

    "Hey Lord don't ask me questions
    There ain't no answer in me"

    Comment

    • Isofarro

      #47
      Re: Re: Which version in LH for?

      Jane Withnolastname wrote:
      [color=blue]
      > I knew I shouldn't have said "upgrade". But you'll also notice, I
      > didn't say "switch". Who's asking you to switch browsers? Just use IE6
      > to view my site.[/color]

      Download a 50Mb+ browser to visit _one_ website? You must be joking!


      --
      Iso.
      FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
      Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
      Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/

      Comment

      • Jane Withnolastname

        #48
        Re: Which version in LH for?

        On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:46:51 +0930, Tim <admin@sheerhel l.lan> wrote:
        [color=blue]
        >On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 17:49:00 GMT,
        >Jane Withnolastname <JaneWithnolast nameNOSPAM@yaho o.com> wrote:
        >[color=green]
        >> I have no interest in other browsers since I know FOR A FACT that the
        >> majority of browsers hitting my site are IE4+, which is compatible
        >> with IE6. The minority is Netscape (no other browsers hit my site).
        >> The purpose of the page in question is to tell people using browsers
        >> other than IE why the site looks wrong to them.[/color]
        >
        >To which I can only say, "fuckwit."[/color]

        Such are the problems of a limited vocabulary.
        [color=blue]
        >I'm beyond being polite to such "morons," nor trying to educate them,
        >who know stuff all about what they're doing with the WWW, spouting
        >"crap" like that. You've got a whole news group full of advice about
        >what's wrong with that attitude, if you can't learn it from them, you're
        >never going to learn.[/color]

        I have no idea what you are talking about. I thought I made it quite
        clear above. I don't see why you are taking this so personally. You
        don't even look at my site.
        [color=blue]
        >If you've got half a brain, research for yourself what the internet is
        >about, and why you DON'T author for specific browsers. I don't know why
        >you're even bothering asking for advice in a "WWW authoring" newsgroup,
        >when you clearly have no intention of doing so.[/color]

        Well, if you'd like to do a little research, you'll see that I did not
        ask for advice. I asked a question and it was answered. All the advice
        and vitriol was offered and foisted upon me.

        Comment

        • Jane Withnolastname

          #49
          Re: Which version in LH for?

          On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 06:12:25 +0000 (UTC), "Jukka K. Korpela"
          <jkorpela@cs.tu t.fi> wrote:
          [color=blue]
          >Jane Withnolastname <JaneWithnolast nameNOSPAM@yaho o.com> wrote:
          >[color=green]
          >> You are the only one claiming that conformance to the standards
          >> implies the page works on all browsers.[/color]
          >
          >No, I am not. Are you trolling, or don't you really remember what you
          >wrote very recently in this thread?[/color]

          Isn't trolling when someone posts a message that goes against
          everything a certain group stands for? I simply asked a question about
          authoring html.
          [color=blue]
          >"The page in question was bragging about how every page in my site
          >validated and if your browser can't read it then your browser does not
          >meet the standards of the W3C."
          >
          >That was your text.[/color]

          OK, I'm lost then. Aren't the W3C standards what are used to dictate
          HTML? I mean, there are certain things that Netscape can do that W3C
          doesn't recognize as standard and therefore is not standard. Isn't
          that it? Seriously, I'm not trying to be an ass, I am really confused
          by this now.
          [color=blue][color=green]
          >> Sorry if this sounds like a slap in your face, but that ain't brief.[/color]
          >
          >It's as brief as possible, i.e. without thoroughly misleading people or
          >misrepresentin g facts. You are invited to try to write a shorter one.[/color]

          Well, it sounds like you are totally against the Validator, and I am
          not, so I have no interest in re-writing it.
          [color=blue][color=green]
          >> And yeah, I do know what Validation is.[/color]
          >
          >Your text that I quoted above proves that you don't. So did your
          >original question, still present in the Subject line - you had picked up
          >some fancy tag from somewhere and were puzzled when the validator
          >rejected it. You even wrote:
          >
          >"I know LH is a valid tag because it is clearly defined by
          >the W3C here: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/bulletlists.htm l"[/color]

          I don't see how that follows. I use the Validator to make sure
          everything is laid out right. When it points out something that I
          expect is a valid tag and tells me it isn't, I get confused. When I
          further find that tag listed on their site and it seems to be saying
          there is nothing wrong with it and I have implemented it in the way
          described, excuse me if I jump to the (obviously illogical) conclusion
          that it is a valid tag.
          I have admitted in previous posts that I was mistaken in thinking the
          tag was valid and, possibly if I had thought about it, I might have
          seen that it was for HTML 3. However, I still would have been
          confused, because I didn't know it was withdrawn or never included or
          whatever the right term is.
          That's right, I don't have every single HTML tag memorized and I don't
          know all the doctypes and charsets. I guess that sets me up for
          crucifixion.
          I thought this was the place to ask an honest question. I didn't
          realize I was going to put through the ringer for it.
          And if the Validator is not for finding mistakes in layout, then what?
          I thought that's what your page said.
          [color=blue][color=green]
          >> I often wish there were a good JavaScript Validator,[/color]
          >
          >Oh, you just have to write a DTD for JavaScript.[/color]

          Heh. Cool. I'll try that.
          [color=blue]
          >(Hint: You once again proved that you have no idea of what validation
          >is.)[/color]

          I think I proved I don't know all the DTDs or what Validator is
          capable of. I still know what it is, otherwise I wouldn't have asked
          for a JavaScript validator....

          How much do you hate me?

          Comment

          • Jane Withnolastname

            #50
            Re: Which version in LH for?

            On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 3:25:49 -0400, Mr. Zucchini
            <do_you_expect@ realmailaddress .com> wrote:
            [color=blue][color=green]
            >> Yeah, I know that's cheating, and probably won't display
            >> right on some browsers, but as long as it looks right on IE6 and
            >> Validates, that's all I really care about :)[/color]
            >
            >Just out of curiosity, why do you care if it validates? IE6 is one of
            >the most forgiving browsers out there and as long as it displays
            >correctly, why do you care if it validates? It works, right? so why
            >validate? Obviously the tag worked and you didn't even know that it was
            >not a valid tag because it worked in IE6, so why bother with validation
            >since the only browser that you care about and you target doesn't care?[/color]

            I think I addressed this in a previous post. I was bragging on the
            page that it validates. I would look pretty stupid if it didn't
            validate. And yeah, I know I look pretty stupid right now, but as I
            mentioned in the other post, none of my visitors are going to see this
            thread :)
            [color=blue]
            >Are you worried that some day M$ will build their browser to be
            >unforgiving (and god forbid -- fully standard compliant) and your page
            >may look wrong in such a hypothetical browser?[/color]

            I don't care what anybody does tomorrow, I'm concerned about what it
            looks like today.
            [color=blue]
            >Thanks to web designers like you, many people think the only choice they
            >have is IE for browsing the web.[/color]

            You're welcome.

            Comment

            • Jane Withnolastname

              #51
              Re: Re: Which version in LH for?

              On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:14:16 +0930, Tim <admin@sheerhel l.lan> wrote:
              [color=blue][color=green]
              >> Thanks to web designers like you, many people think the only choice they
              >> have is IE for browsing the web.[/color]
              >
              >Thanks to twits, like them, that's became a sad reality, for a lot of
              >people. Perhaps not the whole WWW, but a huge slab of it doesn't work
              >in decent web browsers (MSIE is not a "decent" web browser).[/color]

              You're probably right. But it's all I've got and it's what I like and
              I am unwilling to switch my personal browser. However, if I come
              across a site I wanna look at and it tells me I can only get the full
              experience by viewing it in Netscape, I'll pop open my Netscape. No
              big deal.
              [color=blue]
              >I think MSIE truly is the trojan horse.[/color]

              Heh. I like that. That's funny.

              Comment

              • Jane Withnolastname

                #52
                Re: Re: Re: Which version in LH for?

                On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:10:25 +0100, Eric Jarvis <web@ericjarvis .co.uk>
                wrote:
                [color=blue]
                >Jane Withnolastname wrote:[color=green]
                >>
                >> That's my point - I have no intention of putting in any extra effort
                >> for more than one browser.
                >>[/color]
                >
                >point made...and understood
                >
                >you are designing to please your own ego and have no
                >interest in the site actually being useful on any
                >serious basis...I don't think there's much point reading
                >any more[/color]

                Thank you!

                Comment

                • Shawn K. Quinn

                  #53
                  Re: Which version in LH for?

                  Isofarro wrote:
                  [color=blue]
                  > Jane Withnolastname wrote:
                  >[color=green]
                  >> Please replace "a proper browser" in the above sentence
                  >> with "IE6".[/color]
                  >
                  > Where do visitors download IE6 for Linux?[/color]

                  Or for that matter, Mac OS X, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX,
                  IRIX, or OS/2?

                  --
                  Shawn K. Quinn

                  Comment

                  • Shawn K. Quinn

                    #54
                    Re: Re: Which version in LH for?

                    Isofarro wrote:
                    [color=blue]
                    > Jane Withnolastname wrote:
                    >[color=green]
                    >> I knew I shouldn't have said "upgrade". But you'll also notice, I
                    >> didn't say "switch". Who's asking you to switch browsers? Just use IE6
                    >> to view my site.[/color]
                    >
                    > Download a 50Mb+ browser to visit _one_ website? You must be joking![/color]

                    For some of us, this means "buy an overpriced piece of garbage that's only
                    labeled as an 'operating system' and download a 50Mb+ browser." No thanks.

                    --
                    Shawn K. Quinn

                    Comment

                    • Jane Withnolastname

                      #55
                      Re: Re: Re: Which version in LH for?

                      On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:14:38 -0500, "Shawn K. Quinn"
                      <skquinn@xeviou s.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
                      [color=blue][color=green]
                      >> That's my point - I have no intention of putting in any extra effort
                      >> for more than one browser.[/color]
                      >
                      >Right, so why not put in *less* effort to make a site for *all* browsers?[/color]

                      Well, I would still have to learn a whole new way of writing pages,
                      right. That's where the effort lies. As I said in another post
                      somewhere, when the site is all done and I'm bored with nothing to do,
                      maybe I'll take the time to learn how to do this. And maybe then I'll
                      return and thank you for putting me on to a whole new way of life. But
                      until then, it's all IE, all the time.
                      [color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
                      >>>It's also reality on the WWW. Different browsers will display your content
                      >>>differentl y. Even MSIE lets its users ignore document fonts and colors.
                      >>>Better browsers provide the user even more control.[/color]
                      >>
                      >> Yup. Which is why I tell people how to set their IE to get the most
                      >> out of my pages.[/color]
                      >
                      >You completely miss the concept of "World Wide Web" don't you? Hint: the
                      >user has already decided how to set up his/her browser *before* visiting
                      >your site.[/color]

                      Really? I find most people have no idea how their browser is
                      configured. I have seen people with a Google or Yahoo bar on their
                      browser and have *no idea* how it got there! I don't think anybody
                      really knows or cares about their browser settings.
                      Hmm, I guess I shouldn't be so general. OK, a lot of people don't know
                      or care ... etc.
                      [color=blue]
                      >I forget the URL off-hand, but there's an essay which should be locatable
                      >using the search phrase "this site optimized for arguing with customers".[/color]

                      Everybody wants me to read something. I'm sure that one is pretty
                      funny, considering the title, but I just don't have the time. Do you
                      think it would be OK if I could go fix my site instead?

                      Comment

                      • Jane Withnolastname

                        #56
                        Re: Re: Re: Which version in LH for?

                        On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:27:54 +0000, Isofarro
                        <spamblock@spam detector.co.uk> wrote:
                        [color=blue]
                        >Jane Withnolastname wrote:
                        >[color=green]
                        >> I knew I shouldn't have said "upgrade". But you'll also notice, I
                        >> didn't say "switch". Who's asking you to switch browsers? Just use IE6
                        >> to view my site.[/color]
                        >
                        >Download a 50Mb+ browser to visit _one_ website? You must be joking![/color]

                        Are you telling me that my site is the *only* site on the entire www
                        that is optimized for IE? Wow. I should call Microsoft. Get a grant or
                        something. Sponsorship maybe.

                        Comment

                        • Jane Withnolastname

                          #57
                          Re: Re: Which version in LH for?

                          On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:03:21 -0500, "Shawn K. Quinn"
                          <skquinn@xeviou s.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
                          [color=blue]
                          >Isofarro wrote:
                          >[color=green]
                          >> Jane Withnolastname wrote:
                          >>[color=darkred]
                          >>> Please replace "a proper browser" in the above sentence
                          >>> with "IE6".[/color]
                          >>
                          >> Where do visitors download IE6 for Linux?[/color]
                          >
                          >Or for that matter, Mac OS X, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX,
                          >IRIX, or OS/2?[/color]

                          See original response.

                          Comment

                          • Jane Withnolastname

                            #58
                            Re: Re: Re: Which version in LH for?

                            On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:04:20 -0500, "Shawn K. Quinn"
                            <skquinn@xeviou s.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
                            [color=blue]
                            >Isofarro wrote:
                            >[color=green]
                            >> Jane Withnolastname wrote:
                            >>[color=darkred]
                            >>> I knew I shouldn't have said "upgrade". But you'll also notice, I
                            >>> didn't say "switch". Who's asking you to switch browsers? Just use IE6
                            >>> to view my site.[/color]
                            >>
                            >> Download a 50Mb+ browser to visit _one_ website? You must be joking![/color]
                            >
                            >For some of us, this means "buy an overpriced piece of garbage that's only
                            >labeled as an 'operating system' and download a 50Mb+ browser." No thanks.[/color]

                            I think if you buy the overpriced piece of garbage, it comes with the
                            50Mb+ browser, so no download involved. There's your incentive. :)

                            Comment

                            • Shawn K. Quinn

                              #59
                              Re: Re: Re: Which version in LH for?

                              Jane Withnolastname wrote:
                              [color=blue]
                              > On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:27:54 +0000, Isofarro
                              > <spamblock@spam detector.co.uk> wrote:
                              >[color=green]
                              >>Jane Withnolastname wrote:
                              >>[color=darkred]
                              >>> I knew I shouldn't have said "upgrade". But you'll also notice, I
                              >>> didn't say "switch". Who's asking you to switch browsers? Just use IE6
                              >>> to view my site.[/color]
                              >>
                              >>Download a 50Mb+ browser to visit _one_ website? You must be joking![/color]
                              >
                              > Are you telling me that my site is the *only* site on the entire www
                              > that is optimized for IE? Wow. I should call Microsoft. Get a grant or
                              > something. Sponsorship maybe.[/color]

                              No, what he's saying, is he doesn't use IE to browse the World Wide Web.
                              This could be for any one of a whole laundry list full of reasons.

                              --
                              Shawn K. Quinn

                              Comment

                              • Isofarro

                                #60
                                Re: Which version in LH for?

                                Jane Withnolastname wrote:
                                [color=blue]
                                > You don't even look at my site.[/color]

                                You say that as if its a bad thing. Except you are the one ensuring that
                                this is indeed the situation.



                                --
                                Iso.
                                FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
                                Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
                                Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/

                                Comment

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