Table height in percents

**brucie** · Jul 20 '05, 03:23 PM

Re: Table height in percents

In post <4c488477.03080 11341.1e5d609d@ posting.google. com>
alex said...
[color=blue]
> It seems like HTML 4.01 Transitional spec. doesn't allow table height
> to be expressed in percents.[/color]

height is not a valid attribute of <table> in any HTML specification
[color=blue]
> I need to make my HTML to be valid 4.01, how can i make a table
> populate the whole page?[/color]

you shouldn't be using tables for layout. having valid html isn't much
use if your document is broken from the start.
[color=blue]
> In other words how can i get the same effect
> as width="100%" and height="100%"[/color]

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<title>blah</title>
<style type="text/css">
html,body{margi n:0;padding:0;h eight:100%;}
table{width:100 %;height:100%;b order:1px solid red;}
</style>
<table><tr><td> blah</td></tr></table>

--
brucie a. blackford. 02/August/2003 07:44:53 am kilo.

http://loser.brucies.com/

**Zac Hester** · Jul 20 '05, 03:23 PM

Re: Table height in percents

"brucie" <brucie01@loser .brucies.com> wrote in message
news:1wn4pla1rj x4r.dlg@alt-html.org...[color=blue]
> In post <4c488477.03080 11341.1e5d609d@ posting.google. com>
> alex said...
>[color=green]
> > I need to make my HTML to be valid 4.01, how can i make a table
> > populate the whole page?[/color]
>
> you shouldn't be using tables for layout. having valid html isn't much
> use if your document is broken from the start.
>[/color]

Out of curiosity (and a lack of finding good info on w3.org), what is the
preferred (standard) method of columnar layout? I never read much about the
table specifications until now, and I can't seem to find where it says using
tables for containing other parts of the layout tree is bad. (I'm sure I'm
not looking quite hard enough.) Do you have a link where I can just start
reading how to layout columns the "proper" way?

I use columns all the time for my layouts' navigation. Until I find out
different, I always use a single-row table to split the page into two or
three columns. I always thought it was kind of clunky, but it got the job
done, and I do feel that it's a bit of a violation of a "good" parse tree to
use a data layout method for page layout.

I looked up COL and COLGROUP, but they are only relative to a table in
context.

Thanks for anyone's advice,
Zac

**brucie** · Jul 20 '05, 03:23 PM

Re: Table height in percents

In post <3f2af0e2$1@new s.enetis.net>
Zac Hester said...
[color=blue][color=green]
>> you shouldn't be using tables for layout. having valid html isn't much
>> use if your document is broken from the start.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> Out of curiosity (and a lack of finding good info on w3.org), what is the
> preferred (standard) method of columnar layout?[/color]

CSS
[color=blue]
> I never read much about the table specifications until now, and I can't seem
> to find where it says using tables for containing other parts of the layout
> tree is bad.[/color]

<quote>
Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content
as this may present problems when rendering to non-visual media.
Additionally, when used with graphics, these tables may force users to
scroll horizontally to view a table designed on a system with a larger
display. To minimize these problems, authors should use style sheets
to control layout rather than tables.
</quote> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.1

also: B.5 Notes on tables

Performance, Implementation, and Design Notes

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/notes.html#notes-tables

[color=blue]
> Do you have a link where I can just start reading how to layout columns the
> "proper" way?[/color]

its very easy to achieve column layouts with CSS

1-3-1 100% available height layout

http://usenet.alt-html.org/1-3-1-css-layout.html

2-1-3-1 content of areas dictates height layout. widths are whatever
you feel like and can be mixed unlike tables:

http://usenet.alt-html.org/2-1-3-1-css-layout.html

but unfortunately IE doesn't support the easiest way to do it so a bit
of playing around or using a different method is needed to support
crappy IE. M$ should be shot.

CSS layout examples:

http://www.glish.com/css/

CSS Zen Garden: The Beauty of CSS Design

http://www.csszengarden.com/

A demonstration of what can be accomplished visually through CSS-based design.

404 Not Found

http://www.wannabegirl.org/css/

CSS Examples

http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/

http://www.saila.com/usage/layouts/

Blue Robot | Messaging, Chat Bots & Social Eperiences

http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/

Page Missing

Web Development – BenMeadowcroft.com

http://www.benmeadowcroft.com/webdev/

404 Not Found

http://www.xs4all.nl/~apple77/columns/

css/edge

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/

http://www.htmler.org/tutorials/3/1.html

http://css.nu/articles/floating-boxes.html

404 - File or directory not found.

http://webhost.bridgew.edu/etribou/layouts/

このAV女優は誰？MGS動画の素人AV女優名検索

http://www.roguelibrarian.com/lj/index.html

MGS動画で販売される素人モノの作品に出演するAV女優の名前をデータベース化しました。

http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts

Internet Styleguide: Privacy

http://ecoculture.com/styleguide/r/rollovers.html

Box Lessons

http://thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/index.html

Workarounds for CSS browser issues.

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

http://www.webreference.com/authoring/style/sheets/layout/advanced/

--
brucie a. blackford. 02/August/2003 09:04:48 am kilo.

http://loser.brucies.com/

**Zac Hester** · Jul 20 '05, 03:23 PM

Re: Table height in percents

"brucie" <brucie01@loser .brucies.com> wrote in message
news:jb65v7ns29 1n$.dlg@alt-html.org...[color=blue]
>
> <snip>A whole lot of useful info...</snip>
>
> brucie a. blackford. 02/August/2003 09:04:48 am kilo.
> http://loser.brucies.com/[/color]

Thanks a ton! This is exactly what I was looking for. It's too bad that we
have to tip-toe around this M$ crap all the time. I did like the
closing-bracket bug, though. I have a lot more uses for that little gem.

Thanks again,
Zac

**Andrew Fedoniouk** · Jul 20 '05, 03:23 PM

One more

<CITE from="http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.1">

The HTML table model has been designed so that, with author assistance, user
agents may render tables incrementally (i.e., as table rows arrive) rather
than having to wait for all the data before beginning to render.

</CITE>

Excellent! <TABLE style="height:1 00%"> How?

<CITE from="http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.1">

In order for a user agent to format a table in one pass, authors *MUST* tell
the user agent:

a.. The number of columns in the table. Please consult the section on
calculating the number of columns in a table for details on how to supply
this information.
b.. The widths of these columns. Please consult the section on calculating
the width of columns for details on how to supply this information.
</CITE>

Is this valid HTML by the standard?
<TABLE>
<TR><TD><TD></TR>
<TR><TD><TD><TD ><TD></TR>
....

<TR><TD><TD><TD ><TD><TD><TD> </TR>
</TABLE>

If yes, could anybody explain me what the hell is this *must* mean?

What renderer should do with the rest?

Is there somewhere LOGICtidy application? Could you give it to authors?

And don't blame on browsers, please. They are trying to render this fuzzy
set.

Andrew.

http://terra-informatica.org

**Steve Pugh** · Jul 20 '05, 03:23 PM

Re: One more

"Andrew Fedoniouk" <andrew@terra-informatica.org > wrote:
[color=blue]
><CITE from="http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.1">
>
>The HTML table model has been designed so that, with author assistance, user
>agents may render tables incrementally (i.e., as table rows arrive) rather
>than having to wait for all the data before beginning to render.
>
></CITE>
>
>Excellent! <TABLE style="height:1 00%"> How?[/color]

Sorry, what's your point? The HTML spec refers to just HTML if you add
CSS on top of that you may end up putting the browser in the position
of having to choose whether to follow the HTML or the CSS...
[color=blue]
><CITE from="http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.1">
>
>In order for a user agent to format a table in one pass, authors *MUST* tell
>the user agent:
>
> a.. The number of columns in the table. Please consult the section on
>calculating the number of columns in a table for details on how to supply
>this information.
> b.. The widths of these columns. Please consult the section on calculating
>the width of columns for details on how to supply this information.
></CITE>
>
>Is this valid HTML by the standard?[/color]
[color=blue]
><TABLE>
><TR><TD><TD> </TR>
><TR><TD><TD><T D><TD></TR>
><TR><TD><TD><T D><TD><TD><TD> </TR>
></TABLE>[/color]

Yes it's valid. But it does not meet the additional criteria that you
quote above.
[color=blue]
>If yes, could anybody explain me what the hell is this *must* mean?[/color]

Look at the <col> element. That's what tells the browser the number of
columns. As you haven't included any <col>s then the browser can not
"format a table in one pass"

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

**Andrew Fedoniouk** · Jul 20 '05, 03:23 PM

Re: One more

> Look at the <col> element. That's what tells the browser the number of[color=blue]
> columns. As you haven't included any <col>s then the browser can not
> "format a table in one pass"[/color]

<TABLE>
<COL>
<TR><TD><TD></TR>
<TR><TD><TD><TD ><TD></TR>
<TR><TD><TD><TD ><TD><TD><TD> </TR>
</TABLE>

And now it can?

"In order for a user agent to format a table in one pass, authors *MUST*
tell
the user agent...."

I did. So what?

Andrew.

http://terra-informatica.org

**Steve Pugh** · Jul 20 '05, 03:23 PM

Re: One more

"Andrew Fedoniouk" <andrew@terra-informatica.org > wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Look at the <col> element. That's what tells the browser the number of
>> columns. As you haven't included any <col>s then the browser can not
>> "format a table in one pass"[/color]
>
><TABLE>
><COL>
><TR><TD><TD> </TR>
><TR><TD><TD><T D><TD></TR>
><TR><TD><TD><T D><TD><TD><TD> </TR>
></TABLE>
>
>And now it can?
>
>"In order for a user agent to format a table in one pass, authors *MUST*
>tell
>the user agent...."
>
>I did. So what?[/color]

So if a browser only displays the first table cell in each row you
only have yourself to blame.

More likely the browser will realise that you have made an error and
will reformat the table, i.e. it will take more than one pass. As you
haven't complied with the requirements given you can't expect anything
else.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

**Jim Dabell** · Jul 20 '05, 03:23 PM

Re: Table height in percents

Andrew Fedoniouk wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> <quote>
>> Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content
>> as this may present problems when rendering to non-visual media.[/color]
>[color=green]
>> To minimize these problems, authors should use style sheets
>> to control layout rather than tables.[/color]
>
> <LI style="margin-left:-100px; position:absolu te:top:-10000px" >Lets full
> the Lynx. It will think that I am list item. But I am not! Some wise
> author (or might be user) applied some weird CSS style to my pure
> body.</LI>[/color]

The <li> element type is to put items into lists. If you don't follow that
part of the specification, then what makes you think the advice given in
other parts of the specification will still hold true?

HTML and CSS are not designed to obviate the need for human intelligence
when marking up documents. Is it a list? No? The don't use any of the
list element types.

[snip][color=blue]
> CSS it just an Eldorado for spammers. They can full any content analyzer.[/color]

CSS isn't content.

--
Jim Dabell

Table height in percents

Table height in percents

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