&ensp in a monospaced font

[Andy Fish]

Hi,

I am trying to output some html in monospaced font, and I want spaces to
take up the same width as any other character. i thought this would be easy
for monospaced fonts - surely   and   would both be the same
width?

unfortunately not -   is narrower than other characters and   is
wider :-(

so how do i generate a sequence of normal width spaces?

I can't use the <pretag because there is HTML markup in the output - it's
not only plain text

Andy

[tech578]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

On Feb 29, 9:38 am, "Andy Fish" <ajf...@blueyon der.co.ukwrote:

Hi,
>
I am trying to output some html in monospaced font, and I want spaces to
take up the same width as any other character. i thought this would be easy
for monospaced fonts - surely &ensp; and &emsp; would both be the same
width?
>
unfortunately not - &ensp; is narrower than other characters and &emsp; is
wider :-(
>
so how do i generate a sequence of normal width spaces?
>
I can't use the <pretag because there is HTML markup in the output - it's
not only plain text
>
Andy

maybe &nbsp;

[Toby A Inkster]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

Andy Fish wrote:

I can't use the <pretag because there is HTML markup in the output -
it's not only plain text

You can use markup within <pre>.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 30 days, 22:37.]

Bottled Water

http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/

[Andreas Prilop]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Andy Fish wrote:

I am trying to output some html in monospaced font, and I want spaces to
take up the same width as any other character. i thought this would be easy
for monospaced fonts - surely &ensp; and &emsp; would both be the same
width?

Some things are meaningless in monospaced fonts. Think of all the
characters that have "zero-width" in their names.

unfortunately not - &ensp; is narrower than other characters and &emsp;
is wider :-(

In *which* font?
It is also possible that the browser takes ensp and emsp
from some other font.

--
In memoriam Alan J. Flavell

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=author:Alan.J.Flavell

[C A Upsdell]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

Andy Fish wrote:

I am trying to output some html in monospaced font, and I want spaces to
take up the same width as any other character. i thought this would be easy
for monospaced fonts - surely &ensp; and &emsp; would both be the same
width?

Why would you think that?

unfortunately not - &ensp; is narrower than other characters and &emsp; is
wider :-(

Of course.

so how do i generate a sequence of normal width spaces?

Something I have done on occasion is user '0' characters where I want
spaces, but with the colour the same as the background, so they look
like spaces.

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

Scripsit Andy Fish:

I am trying to output some html in monospaced font,

Do you mean you wish to present HTML markup visibly or audibly on the
page? Then a monospace font would normally be a good idea. I would
suggest using <codemarkup together with a style sheet like
code { font-family: Consolas, "Courier New"; }
to reduce the risk that some poor default monospace font is used.

and I want spaces
to take up the same width as any other character.

A normal space, as well as a no-break space, has the same width as other
characters, when the font is monospace

i thought this
would be easy for monospaced fonts - surely &ensp; and &emsp; would
both be the same width?

What? Why would you use specific-width space characters (which are
poorly supported in fonts) _and_ ask them to have the same width as
other characters? Why would you use them at all?

so how do i generate a sequence of normal width spaces?

By using the SPACE character U+0020 as everyone else.

I can't use the <pretag because there is HTML markup in the output
- it's not only plain text

You have misunderstood the meaning of <pre>, and what else?

The real problem is probably very different from the picture we've got
so far. To avoid wasting more of everyone's time, post the URL.

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

[Bergamot]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

>
suggest using <codemarkup together with a style sheet like
code { font-family: Consolas, "Courier New"; }
to reduce the risk that some poor default monospace font is used.

I suggest font-family:monospac e; and let the user decide whether their
default is "poor". Mine isn't by a long shot.

--
Berg

[dorayme]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

In article <KoXxj.304103$u Q5.46024@reader 1.news.saunalah ti.fi>,
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tu t.fiwrote:

I would
suggest using <codemarkup together with a style sheet like
code { font-family: Consolas, "Courier New"; }
to reduce the risk that some poor default monospace font is used.

Whenever I have tried this, at least on my Mac, the code looks
too faint (setting a font-weight can fix, but this might make
other alternative fonts for code too bold). It is the 'Courier
New' that is the trouble on my machine at least. The default
'Courier' does not do this. Courier looks fine.

--
dorayme

[Toby A Inkster]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

C A Upsdell wrote:

Something I have done on occasion is user '0' characters where I want
spaces, but with the colour the same as the background, so they look
like spaces.

That must be fun to copy-paste!

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 31 days, 22:46.]

Bottled Water

http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/

[Toby A Inkster]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

dorayme wrote:

Jukka K. Korpela <jkorpela@cs.tu t.fiwrote:
>

>I would
>suggest using <codemarkup together with a style sheet like code {
>font-family: Consolas, "Courier New"; } to reduce the risk that some
>poor default monospace font is used.

>
Whenever I have tried this, at least on my Mac, the code looks too faint
(setting a font-weight can fix, but this might make other alternative
fonts for code too bold). It is the 'Courier New' that is the trouble on
my machine at least. The default 'Courier' does not do this. Courier
looks fine.

Agreed. Courier New is a horrible font -- very lightweight and hard to
read unless there is a lot of contrast between the font colour and
background colour. The serifs are too pronounced and there is very little
visual difference between l/1 and O/0.

Courier is slightly better -- it's a reasonable weight -- but still not
fantastic for reading as it suffers from Courier New's glyph shape
problems.

In my stylesheets, I'm now specifying:

font-family: "Consolas", "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono", "Andale Mono",
"Monaco", "Lucida Console", monospace;

for monospaced fonts. Virtually all Mac OS 9/X machines will have Andale
Mono or Monoco. Windows Vista machines will have Consolas; earlier Windows
will have Andale Mono or Lucida Console. Most Linux machines should have
Bitstream Vera Sans Mono these days.

Each of those fonts are very readable, smart-looking, sans serif mono
fonts. They all have good visual distinction between 0/O and I/l/1 (except
Lucida Console where there is little difference between 0/O) which makes
them very suitable for reading code.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 31 days, 22:48.]

Bottled Water

http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/

[Bergamot]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

C A Upsdell wrote:

>
Something I have done on occasion is user '0' characters where I want
spaces, but with the colour the same as the background, so they look
like spaces.

I bet it sounds great in a screen reader. :-\

--
Berg

[Jonathan N. Little]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

Bergamot wrote:

C A Upsdell wrote:

>Something I have done on occasion is user '0' characters where I want
>spaces, but with the colour the same as the background, so they look
>like spaces.

>
I bet it sounds great in a screen reader. :-\
>

Bad, very bad idea...'zero zero zero zero one two three'...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO

http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

[Bergamot]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

Els wrote:

Bergamot wrote:
>

>Why don't you just let the user decide what's most readable in a
>monospace font?

>
By your logic, we shouldn't add any background or text colour either,

By your logic, we should set absolute font sizes to go with those fonts.

as the user can set that themselves too - what if your webpage is
black on white, while they would have preferred red on blue?

Now we're getting carried away. :)

Don't you get tired of every other web page insisting you use Arial or
Verdana or whatever? Why don't more authors just use the generic
families instead of over specifying everything?

We all make such a big deal about user controlled font sizes, but
default fonts are pretty much totally ignored. :(

--
Berg

[Els]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

Bergamot wrote:

Els wrote:

>Bergamot wrote:
>>

>>Why don't you just let the user decide what's most readable in a
>>monospace font?

>>
>By your logic, we shouldn't add any background or text colour either,

>
By your logic, we should set absolute font sizes to go with those fonts.

Nope, I'd set relative font-sizes that I think go with the rest of the
page and the purpose, and the user can still resize them, *and* force
their own user stylesheet over mine :-)

>as the user can set that themselves too - what if your webpage is
>black on white, while they would have preferred red on blue?

>
Now we're getting carried away. :)

Really :-)

Don't you get tired of every other web page insisting you use Arial or
Verdana or whatever? Why don't more authors just use the generic
families instead of over specifying everything?

No, I don't get tired of that at all.
Have a look at these pages. Each of them please:

http://www.jasonsantamaria.com/

http://mezzoblue.com/

http://molly.com/

http://mappingtheweb.com/

See how each has a different font?
If you have them on your system, you should have seen Georgia, Lucida
Grande, Verdana and Trebuchet MS.

I'd get tired of seeing my own preferred font on every webpage while I
could be looking at diversity in typography.

And I don't get your "insisting we use Arial or Verdana or whatever".
They don't insist, they suggest. If you really want to have your
internet pages all in Verdana, just write your own stylesheet.

We all make such a big deal about user controlled font sizes, but
default fonts are pretty much totally ignored. :(

Which is a good thing :-)

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/

[ajfish@blueyonder.co.uk]

Re: &amp;ensp in a monospaced font

ok maybe I didn't make myself clear

i am using a monospaced font. on one line of the output i have
'abcde'; on the next line I have 'a' followed by 3 spaces followed by
'e'

I want the 'e' in the second line to appear underneath the 'e' in the
first line

if I use a normal space, the 3 spaces are collapsed into one; if I use
an m-width or n-width space, the spaces aren't the same width as
letters; if I use a non-breaking space, this stops the line breaking
(which is not the behaviour I want)

however, you (ant other posters) are right - I didn't realise you can
put other html codes inside a <preblock - so that looks like the
best option to me

Andy


On 29 Feb, 17:36, "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorp...@cs.tu t.fiwrote:

Scripsit Andy Fish:
>

I am trying to output some html in monospaced font,

>
Do you mean you wish to present HTML markup visibly or audibly on the
page? Then a monospace font would normally be a good idea. I would
suggest using <codemarkup together with a style sheet like
code { font-family: Consolas, "Courier New"; }
to reduce the risk that some poor default monospace font is used.
>

and I want spaces
to take up the same width as any other character.

>
A normal space, as well as a no-break space, has the same width as other
characters, when the font is monospace
>

i thought this
would be easy for monospaced fonts - surely &ensp; and &emsp; would
both be the same width?

>
What? Why would you use specific-width space characters (which are
poorly supported in fonts) _and_ ask them to have the same width as
other characters? Why would you use them at all?
>

so how do i generate a sequence of normal width spaces?

>
By using the SPACE character U+0020 as everyone else.
>

I can't use the <pretag because there is HTML markup in the output
- it's not only plain text

>
You have misunderstood the meaning of <pre>, and what else?
>
The real problem is probably very different from the picture we've got
so far. To avoid wasting more of everyone's time, post the URL.
>
--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/