No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible, crossbrowser. Try it.

[brave1979]

Please check out my javascript library that allows you to create any
layout for your web page, nested as deep as you like, adjusting to
width and height of a browser window. You just describe it in
javascript object and that's all. No need to know CSS hacks, no need
to clutter your html with tables.

http://www.bravelayout.scarabeo.biz/Quickstart

[Rik Wasmus]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible, crossbrowser. Try it.

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:42:06 +0100, brave1979 <brave1979@o2.p lwrote:

Please check out my javascript library

Using javascript for layout.... terrible idea. And hardly crossbrowser.

--
Rik Wasmus

[brave1979]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible,crossb rowser. Try it.

On Dec 30, 5:49 pm, "Rik Wasmus" <luiheidsgoe... @hotmail.comwro te:

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:42:06 +0100, brave1979 <brave1...@o2.p lwrote:

Please check out my javascript library

>
Using javascript for layout.... terrible idea. And hardly crossbrowser.

Really? How do you call a thing that works in IE, Firefox, Opera,
Safari and Konqueror then ?

More important is that with my lib you can achieve being crossbrowser
almost effortless and your html files and even css files stay clean
hack-free, table-free.

[Rik Wasmus]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible, crossbrowser. Try it.

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:46:20 +0100, brave1979 <brave1979@o2.p lwrote:

On Dec 30, 5:49 pm, "Rik Wasmus" <luiheidsgoe... @hotmail.comwro te:

>On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:42:06 +0100, brave1979 <brave1...@o2.p lwrote:

Please check out my javascript library

>>
>Using javascript for layout.... terrible idea. And hardly crossbrowser.

Really? How do you call a thing that works in IE, Firefox, Opera,
Safari and Konqueror then ?

A thing that works in certain browsers under certain conditions provided
they have certain settings? It would not work in my Opera, as I myself
have javascript disabled for most sites, save a few exceptions.

More important is that with my lib you can achieve being crossbrowser
almost effortless and your html files and even css files stay clean
hack-free, table-free.

I have no real trouble getting nice layouts in all browsers without any
hacks in CSS or javascript (oh yes, I do use it to provide extended
usability/features for those who have it enabled, those who have it
disabled don't miss anything). No, they are not pixel for pixel alike,
then again, I don't design them to need that.

Really knowing CSS & HTML, and the way to publish on the www is quite
enough.
--
Rik Wasmus

[brave1979]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible,crossb rowser. Try it.

On Dec 31, 1:56 am, "Rik Wasmus" <luiheidsgoe... @hotmail.comwro te:

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:46:20 +0100, brave1979 <brave1...@o2.p lwrote:

On Dec 30, 5:49 pm, "Rik Wasmus" <luiheidsgoe... @hotmail.comwro te:

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:42:06 +0100, brave1979 <brave1...@o2.p lwrote:
Please check out my javascript library

>

Using javascript for layout.... terrible idea. And hardly crossbrowser.

Really? How do you call a thing that works in IE, Firefox, Opera,
Safari and Konqueror then ?

>
A thing that works in certain browsers under certain conditions provided
they have certain settings? It would not work in my Opera, as I myself
have javascript disabled for most sites, save a few exceptions.

A thing that works in all major modern browser with default settings.

Is that really valid argument against my lib that you have found
proper option in your browser and disabled it?
Is a fact that I disabled CSS in my browser a valid argument against
tableless layouts? Should you use tables and 1px gifs because of that
fact?

More important is that with my lib you can achieve being crossbrowser
almost effortless and your html files and even css files stay clean
hack-free, table-free.

>
I have no real trouble getting nice layouts in all browsers without any
hacks in CSS or javascript (oh yes, I do use it to provide extended
usability/features for those who have it enabled, those who have it
disabled don't miss anything). No, they are not pixel for pixel alike,
then again, I don't design them to need that.

You design them. That's the reason why they are easy for you to code.
And you still can get them right in all browsers.
Person who knows photoshop and person who knows html are not always
the same person. You can remove from your design things that you don't
know how to do in html. But when coders get prepared, discussed and
accepted layout in psd they can only do their best.

Really knowing CSS & HTML, and the way to publish on the www is quite
enough.

Internet is living proof for that but assembler is also quite enough
to implement anything at any machine, it's just not the most efficient
way.

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible, crossbrowser.Tr y it.

brave1979 wrote:

Actually I'm pretty old to this game and tired from countless
occasions when I tried to get something look good and do what I want
in different browsers. I joined this game before such thing as
tableless layout was even possible.
>

>And I'll bet the total weight in bytes of a plain HTML/CSS page is quite
>a bit less than your convoluted approach.

It's not weight in bytes that matters. It's weight in hours of
programmer time stolen that matters.

That's what *server*-side programming is good for. You write routines to
automate the generation of HTML on the *server* to save yourself the
effort of coding it all manually. Then the user gets HTML, not script
that may or may not work in his browser.

[Ben C]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible, crossbrowser. Try it.

On 2007-12-31, brave1979 <brave1979@o2.p lwrote:

On Dec 31, 12:31 am, Harlan Messinger
><hmessinger.re movet...@comcas t.netwrote:

>brave1979 wrote:

On Dec 30, 7:02 pm, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.rem ovet...@comcast .netwrote:
>brave1979 wrote:
>>Please check out my javascript library that allows you to create any
>>layout for your web page, nested as deep as you like, adjusting to
>>width and height of a browser window. You just describe it in
>>javascript object and that's all. No need to know CSS hacks, no need
>>to clutter your html with tables.
>>>http://www.bravelayout.scarabeo.biz/Quickstart
>You are using tables, you're just using Javascript to create them:

>>

I'm not using tables in my html, isn't that enough?

>>
>Enough for what? Evidently you're misunderstandin g the intent of the
>guidance to avoid using tables for layout.

I thought tables were avoided for some real benefits like semantic
content, clean html, separating defining visual aspects from defining
content. My lib does all that, and it's easy to use.

Those are some of the reasons given, but there is another one, which is
that many features of table layout aren't defined precisely in any
specification, and many things are deliberately undefined.

That means the best you can do is test in a few browsers, but you don't
know if your page will look how you intended on browsers you didn't test
in or on future versions of the ones you did test in, unless you stick
only to the subset of table layout behaviour that is defined, which is
likely to be too restrictive.

You have a point that floats weren't really intended for doing columns
with either, but at least the behaviour you should get is well-defined.

[brave1979]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible,crossb rowser. Try it.

On Dec 31, 7:01 am, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.rem ovet...@comcast .netwrote:

brave1979 wrote:

Actually I'm pretty old to this game and tired from countless
occasions when I tried to get something look good and do what I want
in different browsers. I joined this game before such thing as
tableless layout was even possible.

>

And I'll bet the total weight in bytes of a plain HTML/CSS page is quite
a bit less than your convoluted approach.

It's not weight in bytes that matters. It's weight in hours of
programmer time stolen that matters.

>
That's what *server*-side programming is good for. You write routines to
automate the generation of HTML on the *server* to save yourself the
effort of coding it all manually. Then the user gets HTML, not script
that may or may not work in his browser.

So you say that programmers who do html and css don't spend any time?
Someone has to code this html and his time I intend to save.

[brave1979]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible,crossb rowser. Try it.

On Dec 31, 9:25 am, Ben C <spams...@spam. eggswrote:

Those are some of the reasons given, but there is another one, which is
that many features of table layout aren't defined precisely in any
specification, and many things are deliberately undefined.
>
That means the best you can do is test in a few browsers, but you don't
know if your page will look how you intended on browsers you didn't test
in or on future versions of the ones you did test in, unless you stick
only to the subset of table layout behaviour that is defined, which is
likely to be too restrictive.
>
You have a point that floats weren't really intended for doing columns
with either, but at least the behaviour you should get is well-defined.

I agree with you. If I could achieve the flexibility I require with
floats I would generate floats not tables with my lib. Just for the
sake of mental health of people who hate for the tables running
through their veins.

But your point is at the moment rather theoretical than practical.
You also don't know how your pure css layout will look on browsers you
have not tested. You know only how it should look if browser was built
according to full specs which rarely happens. So it's more like
placing the blame on someone else than really addressing the problem.

As for future versions of common browsers, they are no problem because
BraveLayout relies on quirks mode which is currently never touched by
browser developers. They improve standards mode, but they keep quirks
mode for backwards compatibility with older pages. It's highly
unlikely that some browser development team decides to remove quirks
mode from their browser as some point in near future. And even then my
lib could probably be improved to support such browser.

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible, crossbrowser. Try it.

Harlan Messinger wrote:

That's what *server*-side programming is good for. You write routines
to automate the generation of HTML on the *server* to save yourself
the effort of coding it all manually. Then the user gets HTML, not
script that may or may not work in his browser.

I've given up trying to reason with him...

I would also love to see a real demo page, with some real content, and
that is still visible when JavaScript is unavailable.

http://k75s.home.att.net/show/brave.jpg

--
-bts
-Friends don't let friends drive Vista

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible, crossbrowser.Tr y it.

brave1979 wrote:

>>I thought tables were avoided for some real benefits like semantic
>>content, clean html, separating defining visual aspects from defining
>>content.

>They're semantically just as incorrect if you have Javascript generating
>them in the browser as they would be if the author had coded them
>directly.

Sorry. Maybe I am misunderstandin g word "semantic". I thought its
something like "meaningful ".

Yes.

And writing semantic html is writing html
that has meaning and structure associated with this meaning not just
html that is the tag soup to force browser to render properly (as with
table layout).

Exactly. And tag soup is tag soup no matter how you generate it, whether
by hand or with Javascript. The contents of your page that aren't
logically a table, don't *become* logically a table just because you let
Javascript generate the table-related tags.

[Ben C]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible, crossbrowser. Try it.

On 2007-12-31, brave1979 <brave1979@o2.p lwrote:
[...]

>I don't see the need to-- why not instead write your preprocessor in
>some reasonably reliable cross-platform programming language (Python,
>Java, etc.) and then people can run it on their own development machines
>or servers and just put the output on the web? I don't see the need to
>run it on the client's JS interpreter at all.

This preprocessor would have to generate css and tables in html
because I have not seen any way of doing things BraveLayout does in
pure css. And there should not be tables cluttering your html source.

I suppose they would be annoying if you used a screen reader or
something.

I think I see your point: nice uncluttered HTML is not just for
authors, but also better for users.

[Ben C]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible, crossbrowser. Try it.

On 2007-12-31, Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.rem ovethis@comcast .netwrote:

brave1979 wrote:

>>>I thought tables were avoided for some real benefits like semantic
>>>content, clean html, separating defining visual aspects from defining
>>>content.
>>They're semantically just as incorrect if you have Javascript generating
>>them in the browser as they would be if the author had coded them
>>directly.

>Sorry. Maybe I am misunderstandin g word "semantic". I thought its
>something like "meaningful ".

>
Yes.
>

>And writing semantic html is writing html
>that has meaning and structure associated with this meaning not just
>html that is the tag soup to force browser to render properly (as with
>table layout).

>
Exactly. And tag soup is tag soup no matter how you generate it, whether
by hand or with Javascript. The contents of your page that aren't
logically a table, don't *become* logically a table just because you let
Javascript generate the table-related tags.

Isn't the idea of his system that the HTML stays as nice clean HTML,
and is only munged into a sea of tables by the JS?

[Bergamot]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible, crossbrowser.Tr y it.

brave1979 wrote:

>
This template does not use my lib.

You don't use your own product? Why would you expect anyone else to?

--
Berg

[while-one]

Re: No TABLES in html. No hacks in CSS. Any layout possible,crossb rowser. Try it.

On Dec 30, 5:42 am, brave1979 <brave1...@o2.p lwrote:

Please check out my javascript library that allows you to create any
layout for your web page, nested as deep as you like, adjusting to
width and height of a browser window. You just describe it in
javascript object and that's all. No need to know CSS hacks, no need
to clutter your html with tables.
>
http://www.bravelayout.scarabeo.biz/Quickstart

There *is* a strong argument for this sort of thing in the
"complex web-app" context. But to fill that niche you
need a system like Google's GWT, that somehow also includes
asynchronous server communication.

I spent 4 months working on a (now defunct) interface
to XML database project that included a drag-and-drop
editor for building complex hierarchical data entry forms (for
describing
experimental data). Those forms, once 'saved,' where
automatically operational--you could fill them out
and save data. Another form allowed dynamic creation
of complex query forms (select all data where creation_date
between xxx and /exp/protocol/ == 'whatever' etc.
And that worked, all built with mouse clicks, with no
intervention by a programmer. It would have been a nightmare
to code without GWT (code in java, compile to javascript).
Mouseover Select Option choices can update the server without re-
drawing the
screen, for instance. But that's just one of many examples.

So, this sort of thing is outside the context of simple "here I am
websites." It's at its best for highly complex, interactive
web-based GUI screens. But you do need the xmlhttpheaderre q
stuff. Else you went to New York but you got off in Chicago.