Is the end of HTML as we know it?

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  • dorayme

    #46
    Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

    In article <4uCdnaAAs5pvqL DanZ2dnUVZ_qXin Z2d@comcast.com >,
    Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
    dorayme wrote:
    In article <nIadnR_KOZMCgL DanZ2dnUVZ_v2pn Z2d@comcast.com >,
    Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
    Tables cannot really be
    fluid.
    You have said this twice now but have not indicated what you
    mean. A table of tabular data can be very fluid or it can be not
    very fluid (because of poor design and the use of fixed widths
    etc). So what does it mean to say "cannot be really fluid"?
    >
    Let's see you wrap data in a table around a picture, for instance.
    Data? Around a picture? In a table? What will it prove to show
    text flowing around a pic in a table cell? If I can show you a
    table with a cell that has a pic in it with text flowing around
    it, will you then give up saying that "tables cannot really be
    fluid"? Are you just going to use the word "really" as a licence
    never to revise your statement and just keep hinting at its truth
    instead of enlarging on it so that what *you* mean is clearer?

    Just for the record, I do not think it is a good idea in general
    these days to be using tables for making new pages (using them
    for tabular data is another matter of course).

    --
    dorayme

    Comment

    • Bergamot

      #47
      Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

      1001 Webs wrote:
      On Nov 3, 10:49 pm, Bergamot <berga...@visi. comwrote:
      >>
      >instead of doing some learning on your
      >own to improve your own understanding, you decide to waste people's time
      >with the tired 'tables vs css' drivel.
      >
      The poster just above you would surely disagree
      See http://improve-usenet.org/
      Which speaks a lot of both your ability to screen Newsgroups and to
      understand the needs of today's web authoring.
      LOL. That is indeed funny. The "today's web authoring" you seem to be
      talking about is many years old. Where have you been all this time?
      In that sense I am long way before you.
      You presume much, I think.
      Look around just a little and you'll find out for yourself. It's worth
      the effort, believe me.
      What makes you think I'm as green as you are? Believe me, I'm not.

      --
      Berg

      Comment

      • Jerry Stuckle

        #48
        Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

        dorayme wrote:
        In article <4uCdnaAAs5pvqL DanZ2dnUVZ_qXin Z2d@comcast.com >,
        Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
        >
        >dorayme wrote:
        >>In article <nIadnR_KOZMCgL DanZ2dnUVZ_v2pn Z2d@comcast.com >,
        >> Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
        >>>
        >>>Tables cannot really be
        >>>fluid.
        >>You have said this twice now but have not indicated what you
        >>mean. A table of tabular data can be very fluid or it can be not
        >>very fluid (because of poor design and the use of fixed widths
        >>etc). So what does it mean to say "cannot be really fluid"?
        >>>
        >Let's see you wrap data in a table around a picture, for instance.
        >
        Data? Around a picture? In a table? What will it prove to show
        text flowing around a pic in a table cell? If I can show you a
        table with a cell that has a pic in it with text flowing around
        it, will you then give up saying that "tables cannot really be
        fluid"? Are you just going to use the word "really" as a licence
        never to revise your statement and just keep hinting at its truth
        instead of enlarging on it so that what *you* mean is clearer?
        >
        Just for the record, I do not think it is a good idea in general
        these days to be using tables for making new pages (using them
        for tabular data is another matter of course).
        >
        Just for the record - you asked for an example. I gave you one. There
        are dozens more.

        --
        =============== ===
        Remove the "x" from my email address
        Jerry Stuckle
        JDS Computer Training Corp.
        jstucklex@attgl obal.net
        =============== ===

        Comment

        • dorayme

          #49
          Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

          In article <hf2dnY16g4LT_L PanZ2dnUVZ_jadn Z2d@comcast.com >,
          Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
          dorayme wrote:
          In article <4uCdnaAAs5pvqL DanZ2dnUVZ_qXin Z2d@comcast.com >,
          Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
          dorayme wrote:
          >In article <nIadnR_KOZMCgL DanZ2dnUVZ_v2pn Z2d@comcast.com >,
          > Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
          >>
          >>Tables cannot really be
          >>fluid.
          >You have said this twice now but have not indicated what you
          >mean. A table of tabular data can be very fluid or it can be not
          >very fluid (because of poor design and the use of fixed widths
          >etc). So what does it mean to say "cannot be really fluid"?
          >>
          Let's see you wrap data in a table around a picture, for instance.
          Data? Around a picture? In a table? What will it prove to show
          text flowing around a pic in a table cell? If I can show you a
          table with a cell that has a pic in it with text flowing around
          it, will you then give up saying that "tables cannot really be
          fluid"? Are you just going to use the word "really" as a licence
          never to revise your statement and just keep hinting at its truth
          instead of enlarging on it so that what *you* mean is clearer?

          Just for the record, I do not think it is a good idea in general
          these days to be using tables for making new pages (using them
          for tabular data is another matter of course).
          >
          Just for the record - you asked for an example. I gave you one. There
          are dozens more.
          First, I did not ask 'for an example'. Second, where is the
          example you claim to have given? And what exactly is it an
          example of? And you have not answered the question I asked you
          about what it would prove if *I* gave *you* a table with a cell
          that had a picture with text wrapped around.

          Look, I am not interested if you are merely saying something that
          is somehow supposed to be a placeholder for all the pros of
          semantic markup and good css styling. Even if you could rub a few
          words together and do this, you would be preaching to the
          converted. You made a claim that tables cannot be "really fluid"
          and I was merely asking what *you* meant by this. I can think of
          a few meanings, some of which support your claim and some not.

          --
          dorayme

          Comment

          • Jerry Stuckle

            #50
            Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

            dorayme wrote:
            In article <hf2dnY16g4LT_L PanZ2dnUVZ_jadn Z2d@comcast.com >,
            Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
            >
            >dorayme wrote:
            >>In article <4uCdnaAAs5pvqL DanZ2dnUVZ_qXin Z2d@comcast.com >,
            >> Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
            >>>
            >>>dorayme wrote:
            >>>>In article <nIadnR_KOZMCgL DanZ2dnUVZ_v2pn Z2d@comcast.com >,
            >>>> Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
            >>>>>
            >>>>>Tables cannot really be
            >>>>>fluid.
            >>>>You have said this twice now but have not indicated what you
            >>>>mean. A table of tabular data can be very fluid or it can be not
            >>>>very fluid (because of poor design and the use of fixed widths
            >>>>etc). So what does it mean to say "cannot be really fluid"?
            >>>>>
            >>>Let's see you wrap data in a table around a picture, for instance.
            >>Data? Around a picture? In a table? What will it prove to show
            >>text flowing around a pic in a table cell? If I can show you a
            >>table with a cell that has a pic in it with text flowing around
            >>it, will you then give up saying that "tables cannot really be
            >>fluid"? Are you just going to use the word "really" as a licence
            >>never to revise your statement and just keep hinting at its truth
            >>instead of enlarging on it so that what *you* mean is clearer?
            >>>
            >>Just for the record, I do not think it is a good idea in general
            >>these days to be using tables for making new pages (using them
            >>for tabular data is another matter of course).
            >>>
            >Just for the record - you asked for an example. I gave you one. There
            >are dozens more.
            >
            First, I did not ask 'for an example'. Second, where is the
            example you claim to have given? And what exactly is it an
            example of? And you have not answered the question I asked you
            about what it would prove if *I* gave *you* a table with a cell
            that had a picture with text wrapped around.
            >
            Look, I am not interested if you are merely saying something that
            is somehow supposed to be a placeholder for all the pros of
            semantic markup and good css styling. Even if you could rub a few
            words together and do this, you would be preaching to the
            converted. You made a claim that tables cannot be "really fluid"
            and I was merely asking what *you* meant by this. I can think of
            a few meanings, some of which support your claim and some not.
            >
            You wanted to know what I mean when I say a table can't be fluid. I
            gave you an example.

            Let's see you wrap text around am image using tables and NO CSS. The
            page must adjust to any reasonably sized window and text size (i.e. not
            72 point font as the default, and not a 20x20 px window), flowing as
            necessary to fill the window and continue to wrap around the picture.

            Such is simple in CSS.

            --
            =============== ===
            Remove the "x" from my email address
            Jerry Stuckle
            JDS Computer Training Corp.
            jstucklex@attgl obal.net
            =============== ===

            Comment

            • dorayme

              #51
              Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

              In article <8bGdnRMn5MqA8b PanZ2dnUVZ_jmdn Z2d@comcast.com >,
              Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
              You wanted to know what I mean when I say a table can't be fluid. I
              gave you an example.
              Look, it seems that we are on different wavelengths here. In my
              understanding, an example of something that cannot exist cannot
              be given. So why don't you be a little more precise in your words
              and thoughts. It does no good endlessly repeating your same very
              few words.

              I have in mind that you may have some misconceptions, that you
              are rolling a whole lot of concepts into the idea of fluid and it
              is you who should be sorting all this out, considering it is you
              who is making the big claim. Table based layout can easily be
              user friendly in respect to using the size of the screen. A
              simple example is a 100% wide table that has 2 columns, one that
              is enough to hold a navigation list, the other for all the
              content. That is a table layout. It is plenty fluid in many
              senses of the word. Naturally, if you are meaning that a table
              layout cannot involve css or em based or % dimensioning and has
              to involve tables within tables and whatever then you are putting
              up a straw man. That discussion is long dead.

              --
              dorayme

              Comment

              • Jonathan N. Little

                #52
                Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

                Sherman Pendley wrote:
                1001 Webs <1001webs@gmail .comwrites:
                >
                >And finally, I declare this thread officially closed.
                >
                You declare that, do you? Who died and made you King of Usenet?
                GG attracts all kinds, even the delusional.

                --
                Take care,

                Jonathan
                -------------------
                LITTLE WORKS STUDIO

                Comment

                • Jerry Stuckle

                  #53
                  Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

                  dorayme wrote:
                  In article <8bGdnRMn5MqA8b PanZ2dnUVZ_jmdn Z2d@comcast.com >,
                  Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
                  >
                  >You wanted to know what I mean when I say a table can't be fluid. I
                  >gave you an example.
                  >
                  Look, it seems that we are on different wavelengths here. In my
                  understanding, an example of something that cannot exist cannot
                  be given. So why don't you be a little more precise in your words
                  and thoughts. It does no good endlessly repeating your same very
                  few words.
                  >
                  No, I gave you an example of a fluid design which can be easily
                  accomplished in CSS, but not with tables.
                  I have in mind that you may have some misconceptions, that you
                  are rolling a whole lot of concepts into the idea of fluid and it
                  is you who should be sorting all this out, considering it is you
                  who is making the big claim. Table based layout can easily be
                  user friendly in respect to using the size of the screen. A
                  simple example is a 100% wide table that has 2 columns, one that
                  is enough to hold a navigation list, the other for all the
                  content. That is a table layout. It is plenty fluid in many
                  senses of the word. Naturally, if you are meaning that a table
                  layout cannot involve css or em based or % dimensioning and has
                  to involve tables within tables and whatever then you are putting
                  up a straw man. That discussion is long dead.
                  >
                  No, I'm not. Fluid design is much more than setting a table to 100%
                  width of the window. That concept is from the 90's.

                  Nowadays fluid layouts can adjust to text size, window size. Content
                  isn't limited to just the two columns you mention - in fact, content can
                  wrap around the navigation area. Images in the window can have text
                  wrapped around them. And a whole bunch more that goes into a true fluid
                  design.

                  --
                  =============== ===
                  Remove the "x" from my email address
                  Jerry Stuckle
                  JDS Computer Training Corp.
                  jstucklex@attgl obal.net
                  =============== ===

                  Comment

                  • dorayme

                    #54
                    Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

                    In article <_Nydne-56YkiCbPanZ2dnU VZ_hSdnZ2d@comc ast.com>,
                    Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
                    dorayme wrote:
                    In article <8bGdnRMn5MqA8b PanZ2dnUVZ_jmdn Z2d@comcast.com >,
                    Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
                    You wanted to know what I mean when I say a table can't be fluid. I
                    gave you an example.
                    Look, it seems that we are on different wavelengths here. In my
                    understanding, an example of something that cannot exist cannot
                    be given. So why don't you be a little more precise in your words
                    and thoughts. It does no good endlessly repeating your same very
                    few words.
                    >
                    No, I gave you an example of a fluid design which can be easily
                    accomplished in CSS, but not with tables.
                    >
                    You *gave* no such thing. You asked me to wrap data around a
                    picture (whatever that means and it could mean a whole bunch of
                    things). That is not giving a fluid design.

                    I have in mind that you may have some misconceptions, that you
                    are rolling a whole lot of concepts into the idea of fluid and it
                    is you who should be sorting all this out, considering it is you
                    who is making the big claim. Table based layout can easily be
                    user friendly in respect to using the size of the screen. A
                    simple example is a 100% wide table that has 2 columns, one that
                    is enough to hold a navigation list, the other for all the
                    content. That is a table layout. It is plenty fluid in many
                    senses of the word. Naturally, if you are meaning that a table
                    layout cannot involve css or em based or % dimensioning and has
                    to involve tables within tables and whatever then you are putting
                    up a straw man. That discussion is long dead.
                    >
                    No, I'm not.
                    No you are not what?

                    >Fluid design is much more than setting a table to 100%
                    width of the window. That concept is from the 90's.
                    >
                    And who suggested any such thing? Not me.
                    Nowadays fluid layouts can adjust to text size, window size. Content
                    isn't limited to just the two columns you mention - in fact, content can
                    wrap around the navigation area. Images in the window can have text
                    wrapped around them. And a whole bunch more that goes into a true fluid
                    design.
                    You are now just babbling trendy talk and being totally
                    imprecise.

                    --
                    dorayme

                    Comment

                    • Jerry Stuckle

                      #55
                      Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

                      dorayme wrote:
                      In article <_Nydne-56YkiCbPanZ2dnU VZ_hSdnZ2d@comc ast.com>,
                      Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
                      >
                      >dorayme wrote:
                      >>In article <8bGdnRMn5MqA8b PanZ2dnUVZ_jmdn Z2d@comcast.com >,
                      >> Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attg lobal.netwrote:
                      >>>
                      >>>You wanted to know what I mean when I say a table can't be fluid. I
                      >>>gave you an example.
                      >>Look, it seems that we are on different wavelengths here. In my
                      >>understanding , an example of something that cannot exist cannot
                      >>be given. So why don't you be a little more precise in your words
                      >>and thoughts. It does no good endlessly repeating your same very
                      >>few words.
                      >>>
                      >No, I gave you an example of a fluid design which can be easily
                      >accomplished in CSS, but not with tables.
                      >>
                      >
                      You *gave* no such thing. You asked me to wrap data around a
                      picture (whatever that means and it could mean a whole bunch of
                      things). That is not giving a fluid design.
                      >
                      >
                      >>I have in mind that you may have some misconceptions, that you
                      >>are rolling a whole lot of concepts into the idea of fluid and it
                      >>is you who should be sorting all this out, considering it is you
                      >>who is making the big claim. Table based layout can easily be
                      >>user friendly in respect to using the size of the screen. A
                      >>simple example is a 100% wide table that has 2 columns, one that
                      >>is enough to hold a navigation list, the other for all the
                      >>content. That is a table layout. It is plenty fluid in many
                      >>senses of the word. Naturally, if you are meaning that a table
                      >>layout cannot involve css or em based or % dimensioning and has
                      >>to involve tables within tables and whatever then you are putting
                      >>up a straw man. That discussion is long dead.
                      >>>
                      >No, I'm not.
                      >
                      No you are not what?
                      >
                      >
                      >Fluid design is much more than setting a table to 100%
                      >width of the window. That concept is from the 90's.
                      >>
                      >
                      And who suggested any such thing? Not me.
                      >
                      >Nowadays fluid layouts can adjust to text size, window size. Content
                      >isn't limited to just the two columns you mention - in fact, content can
                      >wrap around the navigation area. Images in the window can have text
                      >wrapped around them. And a whole bunch more that goes into a true fluid
                      >design.
                      >
                      You are now just babbling trendy talk and being totally
                      imprecise.
                      >
                      Nope, you're just trying to change the subject, turning it away from
                      questions you can't answer. You try to evade the challenge rather than
                      admit you can't do it with your precious tables.

                      I've finally come to the conclusion you're just a stoopid troll.

                      <plonk>


                      --
                      =============== ===
                      Remove the "x" from my email address
                      Jerry Stuckle
                      JDS Computer Training Corp.
                      jstucklex@attgl obal.net
                      =============== ===

                      Comment

                      • Travis Newbury

                        #56
                        Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

                        On Nov 3, 8:16 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attg lobal.netwrote:
                        That's not the point. CSS CAN be fluid design. Tables cannot really be
                        fluid.
                        So what, sites do not have to be fluid.
                        Read what I said. Then respond with some intelligence.
                        If it doesn't look "exactly the same on 100% of the visitors", it isn't
                        exactly the same, is it?
                        100% the same is irrelevant in the big picture. That is my point.
                        I'd prefer to have
                        fluid designs which adjust to the size of the user's window.
                        And the key to your statement is "I'd prefer...."
                        Not at all. Any *competent* webmaster would be able to do such.
                        In your opinion.
                        I prefer fixed width. So why is what I prefer wrong, and what you
                        prefer right?
                        So do most graphic designers I know. And that's fine for a piece of
                        paper. But it's shows complete incompetence on the web, which is a
                        fluid layout.
                        In your opinion...
                        It isn't. It is a preference. Neither of us is right or wrong.
                        It is a lack of competence on your part.
                        Funny, I see it the opposite.

                        Comment

                        • Travis Newbury

                          #57
                          Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

                          On Nov 4, 7:17 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attg lobal.netwrote:
                          Just for the record - you asked for an example. I gave you one. There
                          are dozens more.
                          Oh are you going to do that "Look for it your self" thing again?

                          Comment

                          • Jerry Stuckle

                            #58
                            Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

                            Travis Newbury wrote:
                            On Nov 3, 8:16 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attg lobal.netwrote:
                            >That's not the point. CSS CAN be fluid design. Tables cannot really be
                            >fluid.
                            >
                            So what, sites do not have to be fluid.
                            >
                            >Read what I said. Then respond with some intelligence.
                            >If it doesn't look "exactly the same on 100% of the visitors", it isn't
                            >exactly the same, is it?
                            >
                            100% the same is irrelevant in the big picture. That is my point.
                            >
                            >>>I'd prefer to have
                            >>>fluid designs which adjust to the size of the user's window.
                            >>And the key to your statement is "I'd prefer...."
                            >Not at all. Any *competent* webmaster would be able to do such.
                            >
                            In your opinion.
                            >
                            >>I prefer fixed width. So why is what I prefer wrong, and what you
                            >>prefer right?
                            >So do most graphic designers I know. And that's fine for a piece of
                            >paper. But it's shows complete incompetence on the web, which is a
                            >fluid layout.
                            >
                            In your opinion...
                            >
                            >>It isn't. It is a preference. Neither of us is right or wrong.
                            >It is a lack of competence on your part.
                            >
                            Funny, I see it the opposite.
                            >
                            >
                            Yep, and obviously you're completely incompetent. You've already proven
                            that multiple times.

                            No go troll someplace else.

                            --
                            =============== ===
                            Remove the "x" from my email address
                            Jerry Stuckle
                            JDS Computer Training Corp.
                            jstucklex@attgl obal.net
                            =============== ===

                            Comment

                            • Travis Newbury

                              #59
                              Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

                              On Nov 4, 8:51 pm, dorayme <doraymeRidT... @optusnet.com.a uwrote:
                              You wanted to know what I mean when I say a table can't be fluid. I
                              gave you an example.
                              Look, it seems that we are on different wavelengths here.
                              I believe Jerry just likes to pick fights. You are wasting your time
                              here Jerry is a closed minded buffoon. He fears what he does not
                              understand

                              Comment

                              • Travis Newbury

                                #60
                                Re: Is the end of HTML as we know it?

                                On Nov 4, 8:03 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attg lobal.netwrote:
                                You wanted to know what I mean when I say a table can't be fluid. I
                                gave you an example.
                                Let's see you wrap text around am image using tables and NO CSS.

                                Why no CSS? CSS and tables are not mutually exclusive. Only a buffoon
                                would think otherwise...

                                Comment

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