Is a Login Form "Tabular Data"

[Sanders Kaufman]

I'm converting my table-based layouts to css-positioned divs - but the
ONLY reason I'm doing it is because it's *considered* a best practice.

I don't really see where anything goes hinky when tables are used - but
I'm doing it anyway because the HTML and CSS specs says to reserve
tables for tabular data.

So as I convert my login widgit to a css thing, I'm saying to myself -
hey, this form is most certainly "tabular data" - even if it is
interactive. It has a logical caption, columnar data types, a footer -
the whole package.

So it seems like this is, and of right ought to be, an HTML table. So
my question is - is there anything in the real world that says otherwise?

But wait, it gets better.

It seems like, in a well structured page, you have the same situation.
A page is naturally structured as a table, and by just following a few
logical design rules (caption, columnar data types, a footer), a page
could be considered "tabular data".

How far out in left field is this?
The specs say to not use tables for page layout, but they also say to
use tables for tabular data. Which takes precedence when a page
*happens* to be formatted as tabular data?

[rf]

Re: Is a Login Form "Tabula r Data"


"Sanders Kaufman" <bucky@kaufman. netwrote in message
news:s1Nzi.14$F O2.12@newssvr14 .news.prodigy.n et...

I'm converting my table-based layouts to css-positioned divs - but the
ONLY reason I'm doing it is because it's *considered* a best practice.

Only? Does the new format add to your viewers experience? Ah, I know, you
are "refactorin g" your page :-)

How far out in left field is this?
The specs say to not use tables for page layout, but they also say to use
tables for tabular data. Which takes precedence when a page *happens* to
be formatted as tabular data?

A database is most certainly tabular data. It has columns of data fields,
and rows of collections of those fields.

A form _could_ be considered to be tabular. It has rows, one for each input
field. It has colums, 1) the input field itself and 2)the description of
that field and perhaps 3) a validation error for the data in that field.

However, can you fit a "page" into a database? Where are the rows? Where are
the columns?

--
Richard.

[Sanders Kaufman]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

Scripsit Sanders Kaufman:

>I don't really see where anything goes hinky when tables are used -
>but I'm doing it anyway because the HTML and CSS specs says to reserve
>tables for tabular data.

>
Do they? I've only read a couple of them a few times, and I can't
recollect where they say that. It's a good principle, though. But hardly
a reason to rewrite working code.

Unfortunately, the "if it works don't fix it" principle doesn't apply
here. Standards compliance is a selling feature.

>It seems like, in a well structured page, you have the same situation.
>A page is naturally structured as a table, and by just following a few
>logical design rules (caption, columnar data types, a footer), a page
>could be considered "tabular data".

>
Caption? Footer? In the absence of a URL, I judge that your page as a
whole is not tabular data but you wish to think it is to justify your
use of a table for layout.

That's an interesting analysis of code you have not seen. How do you do
that?

[Rob Waaijenberg]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

Sanders Kaufman schreef:

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

>Scripsit Sanders Kaufman:

>

>>I don't really see where anything goes hinky when tables are used -
>>but I'm doing it anyway because the HTML and CSS specs says to reserve
>>tables for tabular data.

>>
>Do they? I've only read a couple of them a few times, and I can't
>recollect where they say that. It's a good principle, though. But
>hardly a reason to rewrite working code.

>
Unfortunately, the "if it works don't fix it" principle doesn't apply
here. Standards compliance is a selling feature.
>

That's nonsense. In your first post you said:
"...but the ONLY reason I'm doing it is because it's *considered* a best
practice.
I don't really see where anything goes hinky when tables are used..."

Now you say it's a selling feature. Are you saying that your clients
know about web standards and why they are a good thing,
and that you (the specialist) don't know that?

>

>>It seems like, in a well structured page, you have the same situation.
>>A page is naturally structured as a table, and by just following a few
>>logical design rules (caption, columnar data types, a footer), a page
>>could be considered "tabular data".

>>
>Caption? Footer? In the absence of a URL, I judge that your page as a
>whole is not tabular data but you wish to think it is to justify your
>use of a table for layout.

>
That's an interesting analysis of code you have not seen. How do you do
that?

I'm with Jukka. To maintain that a page as a whole is tabular data is
also nonsense. You don't have to see the code of any page, to know this.

The example you gave before is wrong. You can keep content in a database
and later display it in a page,
but the page itself *does not* start with <tableand end with </table>.

--
Rob

[Sanders Kaufman]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

Rob Waaijenberg wrote:

Sanders Kaufman schreef:

>Unfortunatel y, the "if it works don't fix it" principle doesn't apply
>here. Standards compliance is a selling feature.
>>

>
That's nonsense. In your first post you said:
"...but the ONLY reason I'm doing it is because it's *considered* a best
practice.
I don't really see where anything goes hinky when tables are used..."
>
Now you say it's a selling feature. Are you saying that your clients
know about web standards and why they are a good thing,
and that you (the specialist) don't know that?

Yes. This is a tool for use by other developers. Non-developers won't
have much use for it.

And yes - I honestly don't know WHY the standards specifically don't
want us to use tables as page layouts. Personally, I think it was a
philosophical decision, rather than a technical one.

What prompted me to make this change was when I overheard a potential
customer mention the tremendous disrespect he has for developers who use
tables for page layout.

Personally, I think he was just being antagonistic, as so many
developers tend to be, but if that's what he wants, and that's what
he'll pay for - that's what I'll build... cause that's what I do.

>>Caption? Footer? In the absence of a URL, I judge that your page as a
>>whole is not tabular data but you wish to think it is to justify your
>>use of a table for layout.

>>
>That's an interesting analysis of code you have not seen. How do you
>do that?

>
I'm with Jukka. To maintain that a page as a whole is tabular data is
also nonsense. You don't have to see the code of any page, to know this.

That's that antagonism I was talking about.

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

Scripsit Sanders Kaufman:

And yes - I honestly don't know WHY the standards specifically don't
want us to use tables as page layouts.

That explains a lot. Have you considered actually reading the standards or
"standards" , or asking someone who has read them, instead of just presenting
strong opinions about them and asking pseudoquestions with no URL?

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

[Rob Waaijenberg]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

Sanders Kaufman schreef:

Rob Waaijenberg wrote:

>Sanders Kaufman schreef:

>

[snipped]

Yes.
This is a tool for use by other developers. Non-developers won't
have much use for it.

I suppose you are regarding web-standards as a tool used by designers or
bulders to sell their work or sell their services,
but that would imply that customers would recognize why standards are
important, otherwise it's useless.

If you feel that standards are useless, why don't you tell your clients
so. They should feel grateful, you're gonna make them save money
judging by this next quote of yours:

Personally, I think he was just being antagonistic, as so many
developers tend to be, but if that's what he wants, and that's what
he'll pay for - that's what I'll build... cause that's what I do.

--
Rob

[dorayme]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

In article <6wlAi.5493$i75 .1621@newssvr19 .news.prodigy.n et>,
Sanders Kaufman <bucky@kaufman. netwrote:

And yes - I honestly don't know WHY the standards specifically don't
want us to use tables as page layouts. Personally, I think it was a
philosophical decision, rather than a technical one.
>
What prompted me to make this change was when I overheard a potential
customer mention the tremendous disrespect he has for developers who use
tables for page layout.

If your customers share this idea, then don't use tables for
layout. Then the question becomes how to settle what is and what
is not tables for layout.

But be a little careful, this potential customer might be an
unrepresentativ e wanker. This is an Australian term to describe
someone who picks up ill understood fag ends from possibly more
coherent conversations and runs with it as "a strongly held
opinion".

The risk for you is like the danger/boredom that a friend of mine
kept imposing on himself and passengers in his car a while back
after he was caught running a red light via camera. He became so
jumpy that he would slowdown at green lights! He is now dead,
mercifully. I pushed him violently out of the vehicle on the way
to a restaurant and took over with my own brand of robust
driving. I was hungry. (I became even more hungry, depleted by
the frustration, stimulated by the violence).

--
dorayme

[Sanders Kaufman]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

Scripsit Sanders Kaufman:
>

>And yes - I honestly don't know WHY the standards specifically don't
>want us to use tables as page layouts.

>
That explains a lot. Have you considered actually reading the standards
or "standards" , or asking someone who has read them, instead of just
presenting strong opinions about them and asking pseudoquestions with no
URL?

Life's too short to deal with belligerent little trolls such as yourself.

-PLONK_

[Sanders Kaufman]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

Rob Waaijenberg wrote:

Sanders Kaufman schreef:

This is a tool for use by other developers. Non-developers won't
>have much use for it.

>
I suppose you are regarding web-standards as a tool used by designers or
bulders to sell their work or sell their services,
but that would imply that customers would recognize why standards are
important, otherwise it's useless.

I wholly agree that the standard of not using tables to layout pages is
useless - since so many folks (like me) don't understand why it should
be done that way.

But I was dealing with a real-world scenario, in which a potential
customer expressed this as a major factor in his decision-making process.

If he wants it layed out with Tables, I'll do that. If he wants divs, I
can do that too. And if he wants it all in XHTML with XSL stylesheets -
so be it.

I once had a customer, a feminist, who said she didn't like HTML web
forms because she didn't like being told to "submit", so I changed them
to "send".

Whatever the customer wants, right?

If you feel that standards are useless, why don't you tell your clients
so.

Because I'm a contractor, not a consultant.
I NEVER want to do consulting again.
Some people get all into that - but not me.

[Bergamot]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

Sanders Kaufman wrote:

>
Whatever the customer wants, right?

Contrary to popular belief, the customer isn't always right.

--
Berg

[dorayme]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

In article <hPDAi.327$Sd4. 104@nlpi061.nbd c.sbc.com>,
Sanders Kaufman <bucky@kaufman. netwrote:

I once had a customer, a feminist, who said she didn't like HTML web
forms because she didn't like being told to "submit", so I changed them
to "send".
>
Whatever the customer wants, right?

You make a good case! <g>

--
dorayme

[Sanders Kaufman]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

Bergamot wrote:

Sanders Kaufman wrote:

>Whatever the customer wants, right?

>
Contrary to popular belief, the customer isn't always right.

That's not what I said; and that's not what I meant.

Sure, I could *argue* with the potential customer, telling him that he
doesn't want what he wants, but rather what I want him to have.

But that would leave me too much free time to swim, watch TV, spend time
with family and reminisce about the career I once had.

[Bergamot]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

Sanders Kaufman wrote:

Bergamot wrote:

>>
>Contrary to popular belief, the customer isn't always right.

>
Sure, I could *argue* with the potential customer, telling him that he
doesn't want what he wants, but rather what I want him to have.

2 things wrong with that statement:

1. There is no need to be confrontational about it. Be respectful when
you tell them they want bad things. Chances are they'll listen.

2. It's not about what *you* want them to have, but what is best for
*their* (potential) customers, which is ultimately best for them. At the
very least, let them make an informed decision instead of you kowtowing
to every foolish whim.

--
Berg

[Sanders Kaufman]

Re: Is a Login Form &quot;Tabula r Data&quot;

Bergamot wrote:

Sanders Kaufman wrote:

>Bergamot wrote:

>>Contrary to popular belief, the customer isn't always right.

>Sure, I could *argue* with the potential customer, telling him that he
>doesn't want what he wants, but rather what I want him to have.

>
2 things wrong with that statement:
>
1. There is no need to be confrontational about it. Be respectful when
you tell them they want bad things. Chances are they'll listen.

But they don't want a bad thing. They just want the application to
conform to the written standards - standards created by an international
think-tank of the greatest minds, and most successful captains, of the
industry.

When you're an engineering type, that's not just a good thing - that's
downright *holy*.

2. It's not about what *you* want them to have, but what is best for
*their* (potential) customers, which is ultimately best for them. At the
very least, let them make an informed decision instead of you kowtowing
to every foolish whim.

I never really thought as standards compliance as a "foolish whim".