auto margins in IE

**Els** · Apr 3 '07, 07:55 AM

Re: auto margins in IE

Harris Kosmidhs wrote:

sorry if this has been answered previously. I use a main wrapper div to
put the whole site in it. And I use
margin: 0 auto 0 auto
in order to center the page. But in IE it fails. Is there a workaround
for this?

You are probably not using a complete doctype declaration (which makes
IE render in quirksmode), or you are using IE5.

Solution one: start your page with a doctype such as:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
(which won't help in IE5 btw)

Solution two: http://locusmeus.com/html-css/centeringpage.html

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
accessible web design: http://locusoptimus.com/

**=?UTF-8?B?R8OpcmFyZCBUYWxib3Q=?=** · Apr 3 '07, 11:35 PM

Re: auto margins in IE

Els wrote :

Harris Kosmidhs wrote:
>

>sorry if this has been answered previously. I use a main wrapper div to
>put the whole site in it. And I use
>margin: 0 auto 0 auto
>in order to center the page. But in IE it fails. Is there a workaround
>for this?

>
You are probably not using a complete doctype declaration (which makes
IE render in quirksmode), or you are using IE5.
>
Solution one: start your page with a doctype such as:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
(which won't help in IE5 btw)
>
Solution two: http://locusmeus.com/html-css/centeringpage.html

A unanimity of web browser stats related sites consider that MSIE 5.x
represent now about 1% of world browser usage stats.

404 Not Found

http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2007/March/browser.php

Web analytics

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=6

Web analytics

etc.

I believe it is very much time to stop thinking about how valid markup
code and valid CSS code (triggering standards compliant rendering mode
in browsers supporting doctype switching) are going to be rendered in
buggy, non-compliant browsers like MSIE 5.x and to tell web authors to
use a strict DTD and to use valid markup code and valid CSS code or to
tell users to upgrade or to switch to a better browser (Firefox 2 or
Opera 9 or Safari 2).

Using Web Standards in your Web Pages
Section 2.2.3.2 I use <centeror align="center". How to align with CSS?

🤷🏽‍♀️ Page not found | Page not found | MDN

http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages

The MDN Web Docs site provides information about Open Web technologies including HTML, CSS, and APIs for both Web sites and progressive web apps.

The CSS1 text-align property specifies how text or inline elements (like
an image) are aligned within an element.

CSS "margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;" properties will center a
block-level element within its containing block. Defining margin-left
and margin-right is for block-level elements. When both margin-left and
margin-right are auto, they are set to equal values, thus centering a
block-level element within its parent.

References:
CSS1 horizontal formating

Cascading Style Sheets, level 1

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1#horizontal-formatting

Worth mentioning is the excellent tutorial:
Centring using CSS by D. Dorward

Centring using CSS

http://dorward.me.uk/www/centre/

David Dorward's mostly neglected blog

Also Interactive demo on CSS horizontal alignment and horizontal formating

CSS horizontal alignment

http://www.gtalbot.org/NvuSection/NvuWebDesignTips/HorizontalAlignment.html

GÃ©rard
--
Using Web Standards in your Web Pages (Updated Dec. 2006)

🤷🏽‍♀️ Page not found | Page not found | MDN

http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages

The MDN Web Docs site provides information about Open Web technologies including HTML, CSS, and APIs for both Web sites and progressive web apps.

**Els** · Apr 4 '07, 07:05 AM

Re: auto margins in IE

GÃ©rard Talbot wrote:

A unanimity of web browser stats related sites consider that MSIE 5.x
represent now about 1% of world browser usage stats.
>

404 Not Found

http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2007/March/browser.php

>

Web analytics

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=6

Web analytics

>
etc.
>
I believe it is very much time to stop thinking about how valid markup
code and valid CSS code (triggering standards compliant rendering mode
in browsers supporting doctype switching) are going to be rendered in
buggy, non-compliant browsers like MSIE 5.x and to tell web authors to
use a strict DTD and to use valid markup code and valid CSS code or to
tell users to upgrade or to switch to a better browser (Firefox 2 or
Opera 9 or Safari 2).

I agree completely - but I've seen people say this on Usenet for the
past 4 years now (they probably were doing it before that but I wasn't
on the Internet yet then), and it still doesn't seem to sink in with
'some' people. Any suggestions on how to get through to people on
this? :-)

BTW, I also still have clients who tell me what goes wrong on a page
in IE5 (although mostly MacIE5 admittedly, which has less than 0.1% in
any stats I have access to) - I must assume this is because they have
access to it :-(

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
accessible web design: http://locusoptimus.com/

**dorayme** · Apr 4 '07, 07:55 AM

Re: auto margins in IE

In article <b9gu1aa9czqo$. 16nhkvsagpzm0.d lg@40tude.net>,
Els <els.aNOSPAM@ti scali.nlwrote:

BTW, I also still have clients who tell me what goes wrong on a page
in IE5 (although mostly MacIE5 admittedly, which has less than 0.1% in
any stats I have access to) - I must assume this is because they have
access to it :-(

Mostly MacIE eh? For these cases to show up, it means you are
doing extremely well in your business with lots of clients, Els.
Just btw, How many dwarfs, hermaphrodites and martians for
clients?

<g>

--
dorayme

**Els** · Apr 4 '07, 08:35 AM

Re: auto margins in IE

dorayme wrote:

In article <b9gu1aa9czqo$. 16nhkvsagpzm0.d lg@40tude.net>,
Els <els.aNOSPAM@ti scali.nlwrote:
>

>BTW, I also still have clients who tell me what goes wrong on a page
>in IE5 (although mostly MacIE5 admittedly, which has less than 0.1% in
>any stats I have access to) - I must assume this is because they have
>access to it :-(

>
Mostly MacIE eh? For these cases to show up, it means you are
doing extremely well in your business with lots of clients, Els.

Or it could just mean that my only client uses a Mac :P

No, not most of my clients complain about MacIE, but of the one(s)
that noticed IE5, most mean MacIE5. (where most is a number between
50% and 100% sort of ;-))

Just btw, How many dwarfs, hermaphrodites and martians for
clients?

No idea - never met them. I sort of assume them to be regular sized
earthlings, but to be honest, I never asked! :-)

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
accessible web design: http://locusoptimus.com/

**dorayme** · Apr 4 '07, 09:05 AM

Re: auto margins in IE

In article <1e3dpzbimit8t. rsybms76frmy.dl g@40tude.net>,
Els <els.aNOSPAM@ti scali.nlwrote:

dorayme wrote:
>

In article <b9gu1aa9czqo$. 16nhkvsagpzm0.d lg@40tude.net>,
Els <els.aNOSPAM@ti scali.nlwrote:

BTW, I also still have clients who tell me what goes wrong on a page
in IE5 (although mostly MacIE5 admittedly, which has less than 0.1% in
any stats I have access to) - I must assume this is because they have
access to it :-(

Mostly MacIE eh? For these cases to show up, it means you are
doing extremely well in your business with lots of clients, Els.

>
Or it could just mean that my only client uses a Mac :P
>

True, it could be that your experience does not reflect the
general stats. I have only ever had one client on a Mac (and that
one never used IE, Netscape was the big one for so many old mac
users).

--
dorayme

**Els** · Apr 4 '07, 10:05 AM

Re: auto margins in IE

dorayme wrote:

[I have some clients using a Mac, and MacIE counts for 0.1% of site
visitors]

True, it could be that your experience does not reflect the
general stats.

I'm quite sure of that, yes - I'd have a heard time meeting my
deadlines if it did! :-)

I have only ever had one client on a Mac (and that
one never used IE, Netscape was the big one for so many old mac
users).

I work with designers, and they often enough use Macs. Then there's
the buzz of 'standard compliant sites work in all browsers', and
recently one designer client put one and one together and tested the
site in MacIE (which she wouldn't have used otherwise) <g>

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
accessible web design: http://locusoptimus.com/

**dorayme** · Apr 4 '07, 10:35 AM

Re: auto margins in IE

In article <xe6de05kpcm9$. xmq47gbaww0i$.d lg@40tude.net>,
Els <els.aNOSPAM@ti scali.nlwrote:

I work with designers, and they often enough use Macs. Then there's
the buzz of 'standard compliant sites work in all browsers', and
recently one designer client put one and one together and tested the
site in MacIE (which she wouldn't have used otherwise) <g>

I see. My one Mac client used to now and again say that something
I did for him was not quite right in NS4 (even at a time he was
getting used to Safari).

I know you used to use Macs once, but perhaps you and others
might not know that as a last death throw, MS put out a OS X
version of their MacIE 5 browser. Had they not done so, it is
much less likely that you would be getting even the few calls
about it that you get. To run the old browsers on Mac, one needs
to activate what is called Classic, a complicated and clever
hardware/software function in X. Machines even before the new
Intel based ones were ceasing to allow folk to boot into any pre
X system, and now even Classic is no longer being supported.

Basically I am saying, there would have been even less users of
Mac IE had they left it alone for pre X. It might now go on
living for ever and ever. Think about that!

--
dorayme

**Bergamot** · Apr 4 '07, 12:25 PM

Re: auto margins in IE

Els wrote:

>
the buzz of 'standard compliant sites work in all browsers'

Remind them that "working in all browsers" is not the same thing as
"looking the same (or even similar) in all browsers".

--
Berg

**Els** · Apr 4 '07, 12:35 PM

Re: auto margins in IE

dorayme wrote:

In article <xe6de05kpcm9$. xmq47gbaww0i$.d lg@40tude.net>,
Els <els.aNOSPAM@ti scali.nlwrote:
>

>I work with designers, and they often enough use Macs. Then there's
>the buzz of 'standard compliant sites work in all browsers', and
>recently one designer client put one and one together and tested the
>site in MacIE (which she wouldn't have used otherwise) <g>

>
I see. My one Mac client used to now and again say that something
I did for him was not quite right in NS4 (even at a time he was
getting used to Safari).
>
I know you used to use Macs once,

Maybe you have me confused with someone else? The only time I ever
used a Mac was back in 1988, and not to surf any websites. I believe
that what I was using was called 'FileMaker'? Keeping track of
addresses and stuff. I also recall a layout program (for printed
magazines) in which you could let text continue from one column to
another by making a 'link' between them. I clearly remember the
program not being able to cope with my experiment: linking the last
column to the first one, making a full circle :-)

but perhaps you and others
might not know that as a last death throw, MS put out a OS X
version of their MacIE 5 browser.

Indeed, I didn't know, nor would I have expected it! Is that version
any better the previous one?

[snip]

Basically I am saying, there would have been even less users of
Mac IE had they left it alone for pre X. It might now go on
living for ever and ever. Think about that!

I'd rather not! :-)

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
accessible web design: http://locusoptimus.com/

**Sherm Pendley** · Apr 4 '07, 12:45 PM

Re: auto margins in IE

Els <els.aNOSPAM@ti scali.nlwrites:

dorayme wrote:
>

>but perhaps you and others
>might not know that as a last death throw, MS put out a OS X
>version of their MacIE 5 browser.

>
Indeed, I didn't know, nor would I have expected it! Is that version
any better the previous one?

No, it's exactly the same as far as stylesheet authoring is concerned; the
only difference is that it was recompiled using the Carbon toolkit so as
to run as a native app instead of needing the Classic environment.

sherm--

--
Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

**Dick Gaughan** · Apr 4 '07, 03:05 PM

Re: auto margins in IE

In <b9gu1aa9czqo$. 16nhkvsagpzm0.d lg@40tude.neton Wed, 4 Apr 2007
09:04:20 +0200, Els <els.aNOSPAM@ti scali.nlwrote:

>Gérard Talbot wrote:
>

>I believe it is very much time to stop thinking about how valid markup
>code and valid CSS code (triggering standards compliant rendering mode
>in browsers supporting doctype switching) are going to be rendered in
>buggy, non-compliant browsers like MSIE 5.x and to tell web authors to
>use a strict DTD and to use valid markup code and valid CSS code or to
>tell users to upgrade or to switch to a better browser (Firefox 2 or
>Opera 9 or Safari 2).

>
>I agree completely - but I've seen people say this on Usenet for the
>past 4 years now (they probably were doing it before that but I wasn't
>on the Internet yet then), and it still doesn't seem to sink in with
>'some' people. Any suggestions on how to get through to people on
>this? :-)

Although I'm getting less inclined to do it, for the benefit of
older non-compliant browsers I still use the @import hack :( on
some sites to let them default to a stylesheet which has minimal
styling and displays a short message which explains that their
browser is not standards-compliant and that, while the content
will still be perfectly readable, they're missing out on all my
stunning styling and layout.

If they give a shit and are able to, it might help the ignorant
realise that using a standards-compliant browser might be A Good
Thing. Maybe nobody ever told them. There are still some poor
souls out there who wouldn't know the difference between a
compliant browser and a 47 bus and I believe in assisting them
find a clue whenever possible if it doesn't cause me too much
extra work.

(And yes, I do include skip links for those using speech browsers
:)

--
DG

**Bergamot** · Apr 4 '07, 03:55 PM

Re: auto margins in IE

Dick Gaughan wrote:

>
I still use the @import hack :( on
some sites to let them default to a stylesheet which has minimal
styling and displays a short message

I also use @import with a minimal default stylesheet, but skip the
message. I'm sure anyone still using one of those archaic browsers is
already well aware that they are missing "something" .

I believe in assisting them
find a clue whenever possible if it doesn't cause me too much
extra work.

Then again, it might be considered arrogance on your part, rather than
helpfulness. To me, it comes across the same as the annoying "best
viewed in [some browser I won't use]", regardless of how nicely you may
have worded it.

my 2p

--
Berg

**Dick Gaughan** · Apr 4 '07, 04:55 PM

Re: auto margins in IE

In <57hvjnF2cp16rU 1@mid.individua l.neton Wed, 04 Apr 2007
10:44:15 -0600, Bergamot <bergamot@visi. comwrote:

>Then again, it might be considered arrogance on your part, rather than
>helpfulness. To me, it comes across the same as the annoying "best
>viewed in [some browser I won't use]", regardless of how nicely you may
>have worded it.

Your argument does have some merit, but there is a difference in
that one is still delivering the content in perfectly readable
form in whatever browser you're already using, is merely a
gently-worded hint that, unless they have a reason for doing
otherwise, they might want to consider doing the right thing, is
visible only to the target audience and can be totally ignored
without consequence.

The other is a scattergun instruction that they do the wrong thing
and often denies them content until they do.

On balance I still believe that trying to provide clues for the
clueless is not a bad thing to do, but then I've been on the
planet long enough to know that whatever you do, someone somewhere
is going to tell you that you shouldn't have.

--
DG

auto margins in IE

auto margins in IE

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