Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

[David Stone]

Been trying to specify text alignment within specific
columns in an html 4 strict page. According to the
w3c specs,


<TABLE border="1">
<COLGROUP>
<COL>
<COL align="char" char=".">
</COLGROUP>
<THEAD>
<TR><TH>Vegetab le <TH>Cost per kilo
<TBODY>
<TR><TD>Lettu ce <TD>$1
<TR><TD>Silve r carrots <TD>$10.50
<TR><TD>Golde n turnips <TD>$100.30
</TABLE>

should cause the numeric values to align themselves
vertically with the decimal point all at the same
horizontal location. Neither Firefox or Safari do this.

Is this a case of the browsers in question simply not
following the standard, or is there some twist in the
documentation that I've missed?

Can't get this to work using stylesheets either - if
I want anything other than default text alignment in a
specific column, I have to apply it separately for each
td element in that column.

The page I'm actually trying to get to work is this
one:

http://www.chem.utoronto.ca/coursenotes/CHM217/outline.html

which validates fine, but stubbornly refuses to centre the
entries in the "Section" column no matter what I do _unless_
if I align each td individually. I was hoping not to do that...

[David Stone]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

In article <no.email-DC9149.14054806 062006@news1.ch em.utoronto.ca> ,
David Stone <no.email@domai n.invalid> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Been trying to specify text alignment within specific
> columns in an html 4 strict page. According to the
> w3c specs,[/color]

Never mind - after poking around the bugzilla pages, it appears
to be the case that NONE of the Mozilla-based browsers implement
COLGROUP and COL as per html 4.01 specs. Given that the problems
I enountered were raised in a bug report several years ago, and are
still not fixed, I'm going to assume that they likely never will be.

This is one of the things where IE follows the standard, and
Mozilla/Firefox/etc don't.

So if you want entries in a column to be centred, and you want
that to be rendered in Mozilla-based browsers, you have to
apply the alignment to each cell individually _regardless_ of
whether you use html/css or just plain html.

The next time someone tells me I should be standards-compliant,
I think I shall just blow a big fat raspberry at them :P

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, David Stone wrote:
[color=blue]
> In article <no.email-DC9149.14054806 062006@news1.ch em.utoronto.ca> ,
> David Stone <no.email@domai n.invalid> wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Been trying to specify text alignment within specific
> > columns in an html 4 strict page. According to the
> > w3c specs,[/color]
>
> Never mind - after poking around the bugzilla pages, it appears
> to be the case that NONE of the Mozilla-based browsers implement
> COLGROUP and COL as per html 4.01 specs.[/color]

Indeed. It was discussed on usenet only a few days ago, and is
reportedly the oldest non-fixed bug in Moz-family browsers. Hmmm, ok,
the discussion was in alt.html
[color=blue]
> This is one of the things where IE follows the standard, and[/color]
/few\[color=blue]
> Mozilla/Firefox/etc don't.[/color]

OK so far...
[color=blue]
> So if you want entries in a column to be centred, and you want
> that to be rendered in Mozilla-based browsers, you have to
> apply the alignment to each cell individually _regardless_ of
> whether you use html/css or just plain html.[/color]

Not quite true. Since Mozilla-based browsers understand enough of
CSS2, you can do this via a stylesheet, as was recently discussed

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.html/browse_thread/thread/e4b2a487ec8e02b4

[color=blue]
> The next time someone tells me I should be standards-compliant,
> I think I shall just blow a big fat raspberry at them :P[/color]

Nevertheless, it doesn't pay off in the long-term to keep relying on
browser bugs. In this case, you just need two sets of
specification-conforming settings, and you'll pretty much cover the
field.

[Henri Sivonen]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

In article <no.email-3D621A.16340706 062006@news1.ch em.utoronto.ca> ,
David Stone <no.email@domai n.invalid> wrote:
[color=blue]
> In article <no.email-DC9149.14054806 062006@news1.ch em.utoronto.ca> ,
> David Stone <no.email@domai n.invalid> wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Been trying to specify text alignment within specific
> > columns in an html 4 strict page. According to the
> > w3c specs,[/color]
>
> Never mind - after poking around the bugzilla pages, it appears
> to be the case that NONE of the Mozilla-based browsers implement
> COLGROUP and COL as per html 4.01 specs. Given that the problems
> I enountered were raised in a bug report several years ago, and are
> still not fixed, I'm going to assume that they likely never will be.[/color]

A reasonable assumption.
[color=blue]
> This is one of the things where IE follows the standard, and
> Mozilla/Firefox/etc don't.[/color]

The spec is unsound at that point.

--
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi

http://hsivonen.iki.fi/

Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html

[David Stone]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

In article <Pine.LNX.4.64. 0606062218420.1 815@ppepc87.ph. gla.ac.uk>,
"Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@physic s.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, David Stone wrote:
>[color=green]
> > In article <no.email-DC9149.14054806 062006@news1.ch em.utoronto.ca> ,
> > David Stone <no.email@domai n.invalid> wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> > > Been trying to specify text alignment within specific
> > > columns in an html 4 strict page. According to the
> > > w3c specs,[/color]
> >
> > Never mind - after poking around the bugzilla pages, it appears
> > to be the case that NONE of the Mozilla-based browsers implement
> > COLGROUP and COL as per html 4.01 specs.[/color]
>
> Indeed. It was discussed on usenet only a few days ago, and is
> reportedly the oldest non-fixed bug in Moz-family browsers. Hmmm, ok,
> the discussion was in alt.html
>[color=green]
> > This is one of the things where IE follows the standard, and[/color]
> /few\[color=green]
> > Mozilla/Firefox/etc don't.[/color][/color]


See my earlier post about applying a border to an object (in my
case, a Flash object). That doesn't work correctly in Moz-family
browsers either.

[color=blue]
> OK so far...
>[color=green]
> > So if you want entries in a column to be centred, and you want
> > that to be rendered in Mozilla-based browsers, you have to
> > apply the alignment to each cell individually _regardless_ of
> > whether you use html/css or just plain html.[/color]
>
> Not quite true. Since Mozilla-based browsers understand enough of
> CSS2, you can do this via a stylesheet, as was recently discussed
> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt...4b2a487ec8e02b
> 4[/color]

I looked at that. It's a bit more work than I care for with my particular
table instance. Curiously enough, the background colour of a COLGROUP
is one of the things that has supposedly been fixed, at least for the
current build. (Well, as near as I can understand what bugzilla seems
to be saying: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4510)

I ended up adding a class declaration to each td that needed
special formatting. One of the articles in the cited thread suggests
selecting the entire column in dreamweaver and then setting the
desired attributes. When I tried this, dreamweaver inserted a styled
div into each td which, IMO, is even worse.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > The next time someone tells me I should be standards-compliant,
> > I think I shall just blow a big fat raspberry at them :P[/color]
>
> Nevertheless, it doesn't pay off in the long-term to keep relying on
> browser bugs. In this case, you just need two sets of
> specification-conforming settings, and you'll pretty much cover the
> field.[/color]

I don't see how I'm "relying on browser bugs"? I found a standards-
compliant solution that works on all the browsers I tested. My biggest
beef is that I wasted over 3 hours trying to figure why FF wouldn't do
what it was supposedly meant to do...

[Andreas Prilop]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, David Stone wrote:
[color=blue]
> <TR><TH>Vegetab le <TH>Cost per kilo[/color]

"Kilo" means 1000. I think you mean "kilogram".

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/

[Chris Sharman]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

David Stone wrote:[color=blue]
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.64. 0606062218420.1 815@ppepc87.ph. gla.ac.uk>,
> "Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@physic s.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, David Stone wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> In article <no.email-DC9149.14054806 062006@news1.ch em.utoronto.ca> ,
>>> David Stone <no.email@domai n.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Been trying to specify text alignment within specific
>>>> columns in an html 4 strict page. According to the
>>>> w3c specs,
>>> Never mind - after poking around the bugzilla pages, it appears
>>> to be the case that NONE of the Mozilla-based browsers implement
>>> COLGROUP and COL as per html 4.01 specs.[/color]
>> Indeed. It was discussed on usenet only a few days ago, and is
>> reportedly the oldest non-fixed bug in Moz-family browsers. Hmmm, ok,
>> the discussion was in alt.html
>>[color=darkred]
>>> This is one of the things where IE follows the standard, and[/color]
>> /few\[color=darkred]
>>> Mozilla/Firefox/etc don't.[/color]
>>
>> Not quite true. Since Mozilla-based browsers understand enough of
>> CSS2, you can do this via a stylesheet, as was recently discussed
>> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt...4b2a487ec8e02b
>> 4[/color]
>
> I looked at that. It's a bit more work than I care for with my particular
> table instance. Curiously enough, the background colour of a COLGROUP
> is one of the things that has supposedly been fixed, at least for the
> current build. (Well, as near as I can understand what bugzilla seems
> to be saying: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4510)[/color]

I agree that col align & valign should be implemented, but now that you
can use, eg, td:first-child+td+td+td+ td to select the 5th column, how is
that too much work ? If you wanted the 95th column it would be a bit
clunky, but doable. Add to that a table id or class, if you need to
distinguish between tables, and you're all set - no need for html td
attributes.

Two standards compliant solutions: one for ie, and one for the gecko
family - each one or two lines of code.

There seems to be some suggestion that the bug is (finally) being worked
on: see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=915
(and if you care, vote for it).

Chris

[David Stone]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

In article
<Pine.GSO.4.44. 0606071423580.1 624-100000@s5b004.r rzn.uni-hannover.de>,
Andreas Prilop <nhtcapri@rrz n-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, David Stone wrote:
>[color=green]
> > <TR><TH>Vegetab le <TH>Cost per kilo[/color]
>
> "Kilo" means 1000. I think you mean "kilogram".
> http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/[/color]

Don't tell me, tell the authors of the W3C HTML 4 spec!

Although "kilo" is a very common abbreviation of kilogram.
If you insist on being pedantic, you will also have to take
up your argument with the Oxford English Dictionary - good
luck!

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, David Stone wrote:
[color=blue]
> "Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@physic s.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Not quite true. Since Mozilla-based browsers understand enough of
> > CSS2, you can do this via a stylesheet, as was recently discussed
> > http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt...4b2a487ec8e02b
> > 4[/color]
>
> I looked at that. It's a bit more work than I care for with my
> particular table instance.[/color]

Seems quite a modest amount of work.
[color=blue]
> Curiously enough, the background colour of a COLGROUP is one of the
> things that has supposedly been fixed, at least for the current
> build. (Well, as near as I can understand what bugzilla seems to be
> saying: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4510)[/color]

But that's easy to fix: it only needs for the background colour to be
established on the col or colgroup element, and then allowed to "shine
through" all the elements (tr, td, whatever) which come later. And
that's their natural inclination, if their b.g colour is not
explicitly styled.

Whereas, getting HTML attributes of col and colgroup to percolate down
to the cells calls for some kind of action at a distance, and the
specification is very much at odds with the concepts of CSS, so you
have two different languages trying to pull in different directions.
It's frankly a mess, and I have some sympathy with the implementers
here.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > The next time someone tells me I should be standards-compliant,
> > > I think I shall just blow a big fat raspberry at them :P[/color]
> >
> > Nevertheless, it doesn't pay off in the long-term to keep relying
> > on browser bugs. In this case, you just need two sets of
> > specification-conforming settings, and you'll pretty much cover
> > the field.[/color]
>
> I don't see how I'm "relying on browser bugs"?[/color]

I don't see how I was suggesting that you *were*. You were talking
about blowing some *future* raspberry at the specifications, and I was
cautioning against the consequences of doing that.

ttfn

[Jack]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

Andreas Prilop wrote:[color=blue]
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, David Stone wrote:
>[color=green]
>> <TR><TH>Vegetab le <TH>Cost per kilo[/color]
>
> "Kilo" means 1000. I think you mean "kilogram".
> http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/
>[/color]
You think wrong. SI Units are for scientists, not grocers. "Kilo" as a
standalone word means "kilogramme ".

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/kilo

--
Jack.

[David Stone]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

In article <Pine.LNX.4.64. 0606071446130.7 218@ppepc20.ph. gla.ac.uk>,
"Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@physic s.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, David Stone wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > > The next time someone tells me I should be standards-compliant,
> > > > I think I shall just blow a big fat raspberry at them :P
> > >
> > > Nevertheless, it doesn't pay off in the long-term to keep relying
> > > on browser bugs. In this case, you just need two sets of
> > > specification-conforming settings, and you'll pretty much cover
> > > the field.[/color]
> >
> > I don't see how I'm "relying on browser bugs"?[/color]
>
> I don't see how I was suggesting that you *were*. You were talking
> about blowing some *future* raspberry at the specifications, and I was
> cautioning against the consequences of doing that.[/color]

Well, that's how I interpreted your first sentence in the paragraph
cited above. Not to worry! And, I fully intend to blow big fat
raspberries, not at the standards, but at those who insist that
$BROWSER_DU_JOU R should be used because it's "fully standards compliant"
- I'll consign that to the same folklore bin as "you should never use
tables"!

[Andreas Prilop]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, Jack wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> "Kilo" means 1000. I think you mean "kilogram".
>> http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/[/color]
>
> You think wrong. SI Units are for scientists, not grocers.[/color]

And grocer's are expert's.
[color=blue]
> "Kilo" as a standalone word means "kilogramme ".[/color]

The legal spelling in the UK has been "kilogram" for some
30 years.

[Els]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

Andreas Prilop wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, Jack wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> "Kilo" means 1000. I think you mean "kilogram".
>>> http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/[/color]
>>
>> You think wrong. SI Units are for scientists, not grocers.[/color]
>
> And grocer's are expert's.[/color]

There are two apostrophes too many in that sentence.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> "Kilo" as a standalone word means "kilogramme ".[/color]
>
> The legal spelling in the UK has been "kilogram" for some
> 30 years.[/color]

Legal is still not what the grocers use.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=43678&dict=CALD

Same as in Dutch really, I don't go to market to buy a kilogram of
anything - just a kilo will do :-)

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
accessible web design: http://locusoptimus.com/

Now playing: - Track 2

[Alan Silver]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

In article
<Pine.GSO.4.44. 0606071607270.1 764-100000@s5b004.r rzn.uni-hannover.de>,
Andreas Prilop <nhtcapri@rrz n-user.uni-hannover.de> writes[color=blue][color=green]
>> You think wrong. SI Units are for scientists, not grocers.[/color]
>
>And grocer's are expert's.[/color]

My fave is the grocer who sold Golden Deliciou's apples!! Yup, true!!

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[Alan Silver]

Re: Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

In article <gciixhwyftkd.9 wk6m20v8d3b$.dl g@40tude.net>, Els
<els.aNOSPAM@ti scali.nl> writes[color=blue][color=green]
>> And grocer's are expert's.[/color]
>
>There are two apostrophes too many in that sentence.[/color]

It was a joke. In the UK, there is a very widespread tendency amongst
greengrocers to add an apostrophe before the "s" on the end of a plural
word. Andreas was being sarcastic ;-)

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)