CSS frames

[Darrell]

I have a client, a musician, who wishes to include a media player in her
site. She wishes it to be present on all pages in the site.

Further, she wishes it to play whichever song has been selected
continuously, even when another page has been loaded.

The only way I can think to accomplish this is to use a frameset and
place the player in a frame.

I have investigated CSS frames. However, as far as I can tell they
merely simulate the appearance of a frame; but I expect that whenever a
new page loads, the player would still reload, and stop playing.

Is this correct? Or is there some CSS magic I could implement to prevent
a section of the page from reloading as though it were an actual frame?

I apologize if this is OT. I really don't know how else to go about
this; I'm not really familiar with using media players in websites and
am learning as I go.

Thanks in advance.

[Ed Mullen]

Re: CSS frames

Darrell wrote:[color=blue]
> I have a client, a musician, who wishes to include a media player in her
> site. She wishes it to be present on all pages in the site.
>
> Further, she wishes it to play whichever song has been selected
> continuously, even when another page has been loaded.
>
> The only way I can think to accomplish this is to use a frameset and
> place the player in a frame.
>
> I have investigated CSS frames. However, as far as I can tell they
> merely simulate the appearance of a frame; but I expect that whenever a
> new page loads, the player would still reload, and stop playing.
>
> Is this correct? Or is there some CSS magic I could implement to prevent
> a section of the page from reloading as though it were an actual frame?
>
> I apologize if this is OT. I really don't know how else to go about
> this; I'm not really familiar with using media players in websites and
> am learning as I go.
>
> Thanks in advance.[/color]

I guess I'll have to be the first to tell you:

1. Dissuade her from this desire:
a. it's pointless: the user can control his/her machine, your client can't
b. it's hugely annoying and, frankly, a rude way to treat
visitors/potential customers

2. Please tell me the site URL so that I make sure I never visit it


--
Ed Mullen

http://edmullen.net

http://mozilla.edmullen.net

http://abington.edmullen.net

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Re: CSS frames

Darrell wrote:
[color=blue]
> I have a client, a musician, who wishes to include a media player in
> her site. She wishes it to be present on all pages in the site.[/color]

1. I'm already listening to some nice mellow jazz.

2. It's dead-quiet in my house and my wife is asleep in the next room.

--
-bts
-Warning: I brake for lawn deer

[Eric B. Bednarz]

Re: CSS frames

Darrell <darrellg@sympa tico.ca> writes:

(Crossposted fullquoted with followup-to c.i.w.a.html)
[color=blue]
> I have a client, a musician, who wishes to include a media player in
> her site. She wishes it to be present on all pages in the site.
>
> Further, she wishes it to play whichever song has been selected
> continuously, even when another page has been loaded.
>
> The only way I can think to accomplish this is to use a frameset and
> place the player in a frame.
>
> I have investigated CSS frames. However, as far as I can tell they
> merely simulate the appearance of a frame; but I expect that whenever
> a new page loads, the player would still reload, and stop playing.
>
> Is this correct? Or is there some CSS magic I could implement to
> prevent a section of the page from reloading as though it were an
> actual frame?
>
> I apologize if this is OT. I really don't know how else to go about
> this; I'm not really familiar with using media players in websites and
> am learning as I go.
>
> Thanks in advance.[/color]

Whatever you can or should do, CSS has nothing to do with it.

The best and easiest solution is to simply link to the media object;
that brings up the configured media player (if any) for the MIME type
in question which then can happily doodle along in the back- or
foreground while the visitor is browsing the rest of the site.

Not only does this solve your initial problem (continuous playing across
stateless requests), if it doesn't work it's neither your fault nor
problem. As soon as you start trying to literally 'embed' a player in a
page, it is bound not to work in various scenarios and it *will* be your
fault (not even speaking about the secondary problems of using frames,
popups or whatnot in order to request a new resource with the
originating UA while the former remains active).


--
||| hexadecimal EBB
o-o decimal 3771
--oOo--( )--oOo-- octal 7273
205 goodbye binary 111010111011

[Eric B. Bednarz]

Re: CSS frames

"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.nony.mous@ex ample.invalid> writes:
[color=blue]
> Darrell wrote:
>[color=green]
>> I have a client, a musician, who wishes to include a media player in
>> her site. She wishes it to be present on all pages in the site.[/color]
>
> 1. I'm already listening to some nice mellow jazz.[/color]

I fail to see where auto- came into (-)play here, but that would be one
of the sparse pro arguments. :)


--
||| hexadecimal EBB
o-o decimal 3771
--oOo--( )--oOo-- octal 7273
205 goodbye binary 111010111011

[Alan J. Flavell]

Re: CSS frames

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Ed Mullen wrote:
[color=blue]
> Darrell wrote:[color=green]
> > I have a client, a musician, who wishes to include a media player
> > in her site. She wishes it to be present on all pages in the site.[/color][/color]

I guess Darrell didn't care for the answers on alt.html

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.html/msg/498e26de5fe099fb

since Saturday.
[color=blue]
> I guess I'll have to be the first to tell you:[/color]

Well, hardly "the first". alt.html had rambled off onto the topic of
bagpipes, but not before one contributor had remarked:

|| Go ahead, use frames. Everything else is wrong, anyway.
|| -Pathetically wrong.

which was maybe a bit strong, but I could sympathise with it.

[Tony]

Re: CSS frames

Darrell wrote:[color=blue]
> I have a client, a musician, who wishes to include a media player in her
> site. She wishes it to be present on all pages in the site.
>
> Further, she wishes it to play whichever song has been selected
> continuously, even when another page has been loaded.
>[/color]

Business rule #1: The client is NOT always right!

[Darrell]

Re: CSS frames

Ed Mullen wrote:
[color=blue]
> I guess I'll have to be the first to tell you:...[/color]

May I respectfully say that you're hardly the first to inform me of the
undesirability of including unsolicited audio in a website. I'm well
aware of it and have explained it to my client.

Nonetheless, it's what she wants, and is paying me, to do. I pray that
the day comes when I can afford to turn down business; until then I have
to take what I can get.

[Darrell]

Re: CSS frames

[color=blue]
> I guess Darrell didn't care for the answers on alt.html
> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt...8e26de5fe099fb
> since Saturday.[/color]

No, I cared for them very much, particularly the lawnmower vs. bagpipes
joke.

I merely thought I'd investigate the possibilities of a CSS-related
solution. I apologize if I've violated your sensibilities in even the
slightest degree.

[Darrell]

Re: CSS frames

Tony wrote:
[color=blue]
> Business rule #1: The client is NOT always right![/color]

I heartily agree, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get what they pay
for. I've explained why I think what she wants is inappropriate and
counterproducti ve, but she still wants it done in this way. And I don't
have to put my name on it. When I'm a big success I can turn down work I
don't want to do.

<petulance class='childish '>If anybody wants to pay me not to do the
site what she's paying me to do it, I accept (it's not very much) -- my
landlord doesn't really give a turd who pays me.</petulance>

[Ed Mullen]

Re: CSS frames

Darrell wrote:[color=blue]
> Ed Mullen wrote:
>[color=green]
>> I guess I'll have to be the first to tell you:...[/color]
>
> May I respectfully say that you're hardly the first to inform me of the
> undesirability of including unsolicited audio in a website. I'm well
> aware of it and have explained it to my client.[/color]

Yeah, too many newsgroups. I just didn't recognize the topic even
though I'd seen it elsewhere. It seemed "fresh."
[color=blue]
>
> Nonetheless, it's what she wants, and is paying me, to do. I pray that
> the day comes when I can afford to turn down business; until then I have
> to take what I can get.[/color]

I'm a musician, among other things. I've been performing in public for
more years than I sometimes care to admit, and a variety of musical
genres. I've also enjoyed a career in marketing and strategic planning
for some multi-national companies. Yeah, it's an eclectic past but it's
relevant here.

I understand the desire of the musician to take advantage of the ability
of a Web site to play music. However, as a musician, I don't want to
/inflict/ my music on anyone. Trying to force site visitors to hear
music is not a good idea. It greatly irritates me when I visit a site,
having, perhaps, forgotten to turn down my speakers, and the blaring
sounds wake up my wife and scare me half to death. Hence, the music on
my site is available, but not forced on any visitor.

A performer must understand the venue and audience where he or she
performs. Relating, connecting, to the audience is key. Alienating
them is counterproducti ve.

I'm not sure how you can convince your client of the realities of the
situation and the ramifications of her choices. I'm happy to talk with
her about it. And, yes, I understand the realities you face as a
contractor who cannot simply walk away from income even if the product
is ill-conceived. Still, your client will be best served by trying to
educate her. Holler if you think I can help. If not, build it and take
her money. Just don't count on the results being successful. It's going
to irritate most visitors and make them click through to something else
very quickly.

--
Ed Mullen

http://edmullen.net

http://mozilla.edmullen.net

http://abington.edmullen.net

[Ed Mullen]

Re: CSS frames

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:[color=blue]
> Darrell wrote:
>[color=green]
>> I have a client, a musician, who wishes to include a media player in
>> her site. She wishes it to be present on all pages in the site.[/color]
>
> 1. I'm already listening to some nice mellow jazz.
>
> 2. It's dead-quiet in my house and my wife is asleep in the next room.
>[/color]

Nice! Exactly what drives me crazy about these enforced sound blasts on
Web sites. I've come near to heart attacks too many times when
"surprised" by hideously loud sounds on some site I've just happened
upon. And my wife is NOT amused at all.

--
Ed Mullen

http://edmullen.net

http://mozilla.edmullen.net

http://abington.edmullen.net

[Ed Mullen]

Re: CSS frames

Darrell wrote:[color=blue]
> Tony wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Business rule #1: The client is NOT always right![/color]
>
> I heartily agree, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get what they pay
> for. I've explained why I think what she wants is inappropriate and
> counterproducti ve, but she still wants it done in this way. And I don't
> have to put my name on it. When I'm a big success I can turn down work I
> don't want to do.
>
> <petulance class='childish '>If anybody wants to pay me not to do the
> site what she's paying me to do it, I accept (it's not very much) -- my
> landlord doesn't really give a turd who pays me.</petulance>[/color]

Understand and agree. But! Maybe you should direct her to this
discussion. If she won't believe you ...

--
Ed Mullen

http://edmullen.net

http://mozilla.edmullen.net

http://abington.edmullen.net

[Schraalhans Keukenmeester]

Re: CSS frames

Darrell wrote:[color=blue]
> Tony wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Business rule #1: The client is NOT always right![/color]
>
>
> I heartily agree, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get what they pay
> for. I've explained why I think what she wants is inappropriate and
> counterproducti ve, but she still wants it done in this way. And I don't
> have to put my name on it. When I'm a big success I can turn down work I
> don't want to do.
>
> <petulance class='childish '>If anybody wants to pay me not to do the
> site what she's paying me to do it, I accept (it's not very much) -- my
> landlord doesn't really give a turd who pays me.</petulance>[/color]

If someone asks me to build something that apart from being not in
his/her best benefit is also highly likely to make ME look like an idiot
who cannot deliver on his promises I refuse. For all we know she may
like the idea of having a website built that does her tax return
automatically, takes care of her potted plants' watering needs and does
the dishes for her.

Or what if your client wanted to have you make a site with some
extremist jihad stuff, do you also say 'customer's always right?'

I think embedding the media player itself is asking for trouble. You
should be able to convince her there is no reliable way to guarantee the
player works on every browser/platform out there. In other words, you
should be able to hide behind "cannot be done!" without hurting truth
too much.

Don't sell out, even when the money is tempting. I will take on a lot,
even if I don believe in the product customer's selling, but I will
never abandon my own principles. It DOES reflect on you, and may hurt
your wallet in the future to boot. If someone wants crap, let them go
try dysfunctional-sites-'r'-us. She should be GLAD she has found a
person who thinks with her, not just keen to empty her pockets.

All above said, I feel for you. I know how easy it is to get caught in a
split, or maybe to even feel partly at fault for manoeuvering the
customer in the wrong direction. Good luck with that, the
salesman/advisory talents, part of your job to have these, will have to
be relied upon! Expectation management is KEY in service-oriented
business! That sometimes includes saying NO WAY!

GOOD LUCK!!!
Sh.

[Tony]

Re: CSS frames

Darrell wrote:[color=blue]
> Ed Mullen wrote:
>[color=green]
>> I guess I'll have to be the first to tell you:...[/color]
>
>
> May I respectfully say that you're hardly the first to inform me of the
> undesirability of including unsolicited audio in a website. I'm well
> aware of it and have explained it to my client.
>
> Nonetheless, it's what she wants, and is paying me, to do. I pray that
> the day comes when I can afford to turn down business; until then I have
> to take what I can get.[/color]

The day will come when you decide that you will turn down business.

I know that's hard to understand, but I found the same thing.

When I was so desperate for business that I would do anything somebody
would pay me to do, I stayed poor. Understand - "I'll do whatever the
client pays me to do" is the mentality of a whore. It may be harsh, but
there is truth to it: As long as you are willing to do whatever someone
will pay you to do, you'll be treated that way.

When I decided that I was going to build sites RIGHT, I got more
business. Even though I turned people away - I had MORE work, and was
making more money for the same amount of work.

When you take a stand on a professional matter, people come to respect
you as a professional in your field. When you do whatever they pay you
to do, you're just a whore, and they'll treat you like one.

I know it's hard to do. I've been there. I'm a lot happier now.