Simple high-ascii character encoding

[Henri Sivonen]

Re: Simple high-ascii character encoding

In article <rdovg1t2u8umct kgvdejru2b8a71h 0m3e7@4ax.com>,
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:32:54 +0900, Tim <tim@mail.local host.invalid>
> wrote:
>[color=green]
> >Anyone who's been taught to use the English language properly knows full
> >well that opening and closing quotes are two dissimilar symbols.[/color]
>
> Sure they are - in some type faces. In other type faces they're the
> same. In other type faces they don't exist. In handwriting they're
> the same. The point is, they're not part of English, they're part of
> typography.[/color]

Such typographic conventions are typically rather tightly coupled with
the language. When it comes to English, the convention in clueful
typesetting is that you start a quotation with U+201C and end it with
U+201D. In Finnish, you start and end with U+201D (or start and end with
U+00BB).

--
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi

http://hsivonen.iki.fi/

Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Re: Simple high-ascii character encoding

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown @fastmail.fm> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Anyone who's been taught to use the English language properly knows full
>>well that opening and closing quotes are two dissimilar symbols.[/color]
>
> Sure they are - in some type faces. In other type faces they're the
> same.[/color]

Then those typefaces are as erroneous as one that has the same glyph for
"v" and "w". The difference is a character difference.
[color=blue]
> The point is, they're not part of English, they're part of
> typography.[/color]

Unlike most languages of the world, English is a language that is both
spoken and written. Just as sounds and pauses are part of a language,
letters and punctuation are, too. It is highly illogical to claim that the
spoken form is not part of the language - especially in a context like
this, where we discuss HTML authoring for the WWW. As you know, WWW pages
are _mostly_ rendered in written (visual) form.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

[Tim]

Re: Simple high-ascii character encoding

Tim:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Anyone who's been taught to use the English language properly knows
>> full well that opening and closing quotes are two dissimilar symbols.[/color][/color]

Stan Brown sent:
[color=blue]
> Sure they are - in some type faces. In other type faces they're the
> same. In other type faces they don't exist.[/color]

Don't try and use a deficiency or design idea about some fonts as a proof
for your argument, it doesn't wash.
[color=blue]
> In handwriting they're the same.[/color]

They're most certainly not, unless you're a lazy or uneducated writer.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> standard punctuation marks do have *proper* ways of being drawn (dots
>> with tails going in particular directions), even the letters have
>> proper ways of being drawn. Anybody who's *properly* taught children
>> to write knows this.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> Uh-huh. Children are all taught to make commas as dots with tails.
> Suuuuure they are.[/color]

Maybe we have better teachers than you.

Some time ago our education department decided not to bother teaching
correct spelling, and letting things slide. That didn't make bad spelling
correct.

There's a correct way to draw a comma, apostrophes, quote marks, etc.,
just the same as there's a proper way to draw the letter e.

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[Dr John Stockton]

Re: Simple high-ascii character encoding

JRS: In article <hsivonen-D25A62.10293026 082005@news.fv. fi>, dated Fri,
26 Aug 2005 10:29:30, seen in news:comp.infos ystems.www.authoring.html,
Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.f i> posted :[color=blue]
>
>Isn't 'non-English' the definition of 'foreign'? :-) Although nowadays
>it is politically correct to say 'international' instead of 'foreign'.[/color]

Only if under US influence.

The true meaning of international (as in International Standard) is
something that should be understood everywhere, whereas the implication
of foreign is that it should be understood somewhere else.

International rightly includes one's own nation.

As examples, Latin was, 2000 years ago, an approximation to a truly
international language; but Icelandic has only IIRC ever been a foreign
language (except to Icelanders, of course).

To the vast majority of the world population, Finnish is foreign; but it
is not international.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon. co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
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[Dr John Stockton]

Re: Simple high-ascii character encoding

JRS: In article <Pine.LNX.4.62. 0508260901450.2 9483@ppepc56.ph .gla.ac.uk[color=blue]
>, dated Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:06:15, seen in news:comp.infos ystems.www.au[/color]
thoring.html, Alan J. Flavell <flavell@ph.gla .ac.uk> posted :[color=blue]
>
>Well, to be extra pedantic, ASCII is an American Standard. They don't
>have an exclusive hold on English.[/color]

Indeed, it is said that the finest English is to be found in Scotland;
my best dictionary is of Edinburgh origin, though typeset in Cambridge
and printed in Suffolk.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon. co.uk DOS 3.3, 6.20; Win98. ©
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[Henri Sivonen]

Re: Simple high-ascii character encoding

In article <ri6W0IARZLEDFw A$@merlyn.demon .co.uk>,
Dr John Stockton <jrs@merlyn.dem on.co.uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
> JRS: In article <hsivonen-D25A62.10293026 082005@news.fv. fi>, dated Fri,
> 26 Aug 2005 10:29:30, seen in news:comp.infos ystems.www.authoring.html,
> Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.f i> posted :[color=green]
> >
> >Isn't 'non-English' the definition of 'foreign'? :-) Although nowadays
> >it is politically correct to say 'international' instead of 'foreign'.[/color]
>
> Only if under US influence.
>
> The true meaning of international[/color]

"Internatio nal user" is practically just a way to say "foreigner" . A
foreigner is an "internatio nal user" even if she has one nationality and
doesn't particularly interact with other nations.

An "internatio nal keyboard" is any one non-US keyboard even if targeted
at one nation.

--
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi

http://hsivonen.iki.fi/

Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html

[Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz]

Re: Simple high-ascii character encoding

In <1124967122.983 877.55890@o13g2 000cwo.googlegr oups.com>, on
08/25/2005
at 03:52 AM, chandy@totalise .co.uk said:
[color=blue]
>I have an Html document that declares that it uses the utf-8
>character set. As this document is editable via a web interface I
>need to make sure than high-ascii characters that may be accidentally
>entered are properly represented when the document is served.[/color]

ASCII is 0nl 0-127. Any character from 128-255 is not ASCII, and you
can only translate it to Unicode if you k now what code page it is
supposed to be in.
[color=blue]
>My programming language allows me to get the ascii value for any
>individual character[/color]

There is no ASCII value for most characters. Again, you n eed to know
the code page in order to translate properly.
[color=blue]
>I am not very well up on character sets and document encoding
>mechanisms so I would like to know, is this a sensible idea?[/color]

No. You need to be able to control or identify the encoding mechanism
for data that are entered.

--
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Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
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[Dr John Stockton]

Re: Simple high-ascii character encoding

JRS: In article <hsivonen-7B06CE.09083228 082005@news.fv. fi>, dated Sun,
28 Aug 2005 09:08:32, seen in news:comp.infos ystems.www.authoring.html,
Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.f i> posted :[color=blue]
>In article <ri6W0IARZLEDFw A$@merlyn.demon .co.uk>,
> Dr John Stockton <jrs@merlyn.dem on.co.uk> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> JRS: In article <hsivonen-D25A62.10293026 082005@news.fv. fi>, dated Fri,
>> 26 Aug 2005 10:29:30, seen in news:comp.infos ystems.www.authoring.html,
>> Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.f i> posted :[color=darkred]
>> >
>> >Isn't 'non-English' the definition of 'foreign'? :-) Although nowadays
>> >it is politically correct to say 'international' instead of 'foreign'.[/color]
>>
>> Only if under US influence.
>>
>> The true meaning of international[/color]
>
>"Internation al user" is practically just a way to say "foreigner" . A
>foreigner is an "internatio nal user" even if she has one nationality and
>doesn't particularly interact with other nations.
>
>An "internatio nal keyboard" is any one non-US keyboard even if targeted
>at one nation.
>[/color]


As a non-American, you should know better than that.

Readers need to be aware of US terminology, but writers should avoid it;
in this case, it obscures a valuable distinction.

--
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