<a name=foo> close?

**Leif K-Brooks** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

Mason A. Clark wrote:[color=blue]
> But the W3C site says:
>
> "However, browser support for ID link destinations is very poor, so A NAME will
> be needed for quite awhile. "[/color]

Really? Where does the W3C say that?

**David Ross** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

"Mason A. Clark" wrote:[color=blue]
>
> This seems too simple by I can't find the answer.
>
> Must <a name="foo"> be closed with </a> ?
> Must it have content?
>
> W3C says the content cannot be block so what if :
>
> <a name="foo">
> <h2>Foo Is Good</h2> ( a likely location )
>
> Where does the closer </a> go?
>
> <a name="foo">&nbs p;</a> is ok but uses a line
> <h2>Foo Is Good</h2>
>
> Mason C[/color]

Any <a> tag requires a closing </a>. This is because the anchor
(element using the <a> tag) may indeed have content; thus, a
closing tag is required to end the content whether or not the
anchor has any actual content.

When I use the NAME attribute, I use a blank content:
<a name="foo"> </a>
I put this just before the section of the page to which I want it
to apply. Thus:
<a name="foo"> </a>
<h2>Foo Is Good</h2>
I do it this way because selecting the link
<a href="#foo">Go To Foo</a>
with some browsers positions the window with the anchor at the very
top of the page. With the anchor before the applicable section,
the section is then positioned slightly below the top of the page.

I use the NAME attribute for the anchor instead of ID because NAME
is specifically the attribute for "the destination of another link"
(HTML 4.01 specification). The ID attribute is more general and
thus less mnemonic. Since I manually edit my HTML, mnemonic
markups are very important to me if I am to modify a page I haven't
touched in over a year.

--

David E. Ross
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/>

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.

**Mason A. Clark** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:49:20 +0200, Els <els.aNOSPAM@ti scali.nl> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Mason A. Clark wrote:
>
>(now I have to go stuff content in all my 47 pages)
>
>"find and replace" - shouldn't take you longer than 5 seconds.[/color]

15 seconds actually, lock load and fire, for about 33 pages -- some long.

I use Search and Replace from http://www.funduc.com -- a superb program.

Note that "wild card" is needed to search/replace <a name=*></a> where
there may be other ></a> 's not <a name 's

Mason C

**Mason A. Clark** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:51:35 -0700, David Ross <nobody@nowhere .not> wrote:
[color=blue]
>"Mason A. Clark" wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> This seems too simple by I can't find the answer.
>>
>> Must <a name="foo"> be closed with </a> ?
>> Must it have content?
>>
>> W3C says the content cannot be block so what if :
>>
>> <a name="foo">
>> <h2>Foo Is Good</h2> ( a likely location )
>>
>> Where does the closer </a> go?
>>
>> <a name="foo">&nbs p;</a> is ok but uses a line
>> <h2>Foo Is Good</h2>
>>
>> Mason C[/color]
>
>Any <a> tag requires a closing </a>. This is because the anchor
>(element using the <a> tag) may indeed have content; thus, a
>closing tag is required to end the content whether or not the
>anchor has any actual content.
>
>When I use the NAME attribute, I use a blank content:
> <a name="foo"> </a>[/color]

Opera does *not* recognize this. I tested it just now.
IE6 and Firefox do. Opera requires actual content which
a space is not.

Mason C

[color=blue]
>I put this just before the section of the page to which I want it
>to apply. Thus:
> <a name="foo"> </a>
> <h2>Foo Is Good</h2>
>I do it this way because selecting the link
> <a href="#foo">Go To Foo</a>
>with some browsers positions the window with the anchor at the very
>top of the page. With the anchor before the applicable section,
>the section is then positioned slightly below the top of the page.
>
>I use the NAME attribute for the anchor instead of ID because NAME
>is specifically the attribute for "the destination of another link"
>(HTML 4.01 specification). The ID attribute is more general and
>thus less mnemonic. Since I manually edit my HTML, mnemonic
>markups are very important to me if I am to modify a page I haven't
>touched in over a year.[/color]

I agree and I use "name". However, Opera, IE6, and Firefox do
recognize id *or* name. ( with content, e.g <a name="foo">&nbs p;</a> )

**Darin McGrew** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

David Ross <nobody@nowhere .not> wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> When I use the NAME attribute, I use a blank content:
>> <a name="foo"> </a>[/color][/color]

Mason A. Clark <masoncNOT@THIS ix.netcom.comQQ Q> wrote:[color=blue]
> Opera does *not* recognize this. I tested it just now.[/color]

After reading all this "discussion ", I had to try it myself. Here's the
test setup I used.

In foo.html:



<a name="foo"> </a>
<h2>foo</h2>

<p><a href="bar.html# bar">go to bar</a>
<p><a href="foo.html# baz">go to baz</a>



<a name="baz"> </a>
<h2>baz</h2>

<p><a href="#foo">go to foo</a>



In bar.html:



<a name="bar"> </a>
<h2>bar</h2>

<p><a href="foo.html# foo">go to foo</a>



Opera 8.01 on MS Windows worked just fine with all 3 types of links:
href="#tag", href="thisdoc#t ag", and href="otherdoc# tag", with local files
and with documents from an HTTP server, with no DOCTYPE and with HTML 4.01
Strict, with <a name=...></a> and with <a name=...> </a>.

In what situation did Opera not recognize this type of anchor? And what
version of Opera?
--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanford alumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp. com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Nice is different than good." - Sondheim (LRRH, "Into the Woods")

**Mason A. Clark** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:34:50 +0000 (UTC), Darin McGrew
<mcgrew@stanfor dalumni.org> wrote:
[color=blue]
>David Ross <nobody@nowhere .not> wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> When I use the NAME attribute, I use a blank content:
>>> <a name="foo"> </a>[/color][/color]
>
>Mason A. Clark <masoncNOT@THIS ix.netcom.comQQ Q> wrote:[color=green]
>> Opera does *not* recognize this. I tested it just now.[/color]
>
>After reading all this "discussion ", I had to try it myself. Here's the
>test setup I used.
>
>In foo.html:
>
> 
>
> <a name="foo"> </a>
> <h2>foo</h2>
>
> <p><a href="bar.html# bar">go to bar</a>
> <p><a href="foo.html# baz">go to baz</a>
>
> 
>
> <a name="baz"> </a>
> <h2>baz</h2>
>
> <p><a href="#foo">go to foo</a>
>
> 
>
>In bar.html:
>
> 
>
> <a name="bar"> </a>
> <h2>bar</h2>
>
> <p><a href="foo.html# foo">go to foo</a>
>
> 
>
>Opera 8.01 on MS Windows worked just fine with all 3 types of links:
>href="#tag", href="thisdoc#t ag", and href="otherdoc# tag", with local files
>and with documents from an HTTP server, with no DOCTYPE and with HTML 4.01
>Strict, with <a name=...></a> and with <a name=...> </a>.
>
>In what situation did Opera not recognize this type of anchor? And what
>version of Opera?[/color]

See Els post 7/8/2005 2:43 AM Els found a special situation
in my demo url and opined it was a bug in Opera.

The demo is sitting at:

http://masonc.home.netcom.com/1template-1.html

It has <a name="top"></a> and <a href="#top"> and
does not work. Look for href near the bottom and
<a name right below <body

In view of this experience I would not depend on Opera 8.01 to
find an empty <a name="foo"> </a> (spaces don't count)

I'm using <a name="foo">&nbs p;</a> until I find something better.

Mason C why does no one believe in me?

=========the end===fini====c aput====

**Darin McGrew** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

I wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> Opera 8.01 on MS Windows worked just fine with all 3 types of links:
>> href="#tag", href="thisdoc#t ag", and href="otherdoc# tag", with local files
>> and with documents from an HTTP server, with no DOCTYPE and with HTML 4.01
>> Strict, with <a name=...></a> and with <a name=...> </a>.
>>
>> In what situation did Opera not recognize this type of anchor? And what
>> version of Opera?[/color][/color]

Mason A. Clark <masoncNOT@THIS ix.netcom.comQQ Q> wrote:[color=blue]
> The demo is sitting at:
>
> http://masonc.home.netcom.com/1template-1.html[/color]

It's an interaction between the link to the named anchor and your use of
"POSITION: fixed" in your style sheet. The problem goes away when I comment
out that property.

Actually, even with that property, Opera tries to do something; the page
scrolls up a few pixels each time I click on the "Return to the top of this
page" link.

Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.
--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanford alumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp. com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Good teachers are costly. Bad teachers cost more." - Bob Talbert

**Mason A. Clark** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:19:46 +0000 (UTC), Darin McGrew
<mcgrew@stanfor dalumni.org> wrote:[color=blue]
>
>Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
>pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.[/color]

I've been accused of trolling. Isn't this a troll?

If a page must be scrolled. Surely an easy flip to the top is a
convenience to the viewer.

Mason C but..... enough of this thread it's done !

**Jukka K. Korpela** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

Mason A. Clark <masoncERASETHI S@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:19:46 +0000 (UTC), Darin McGrew
> <mcgrew@stanfor dalumni.org> wrote:[color=green]
>>
>>Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
>>pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.[/color]
>
> I've been accused of trolling. Isn't this a troll?[/color]

Depends on what "this" refers to.
[color=blue]
> If a page must be scrolled. Surely an easy flip to the top is a
> convenience to the viewer.[/color]

Do you mean that you find it more comfortable to scroll down to a
"Return to the top of this page", carefully position the pointer over
it and click on it than to press the keyboard key "Home", for example?

Did you even print a page containing "Return to the top of this page"
links and think how manifestly foolish they look like on paper?
[color=blue]
> Mason C but..... enough of this thread it's done ![/color]

Who died and made you the czar of Usenet?

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

**Darin McGrew** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

I wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
>> pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.[/color][/color]

Mason A. Clark <masoncNOT@THIS ix.netcom.comQQ Q> wrote:[color=blue]
> If a page must be scrolled. Surely an easy flip to the top is a
> convenience to the viewer.[/color]

Absolutely. And every browser I've used has had at least one built-in
mechanism for returning to the top of the current page quickly. There's no
need for such links on web pages.

Of course, browsers also have built-in mechanisms for navigating the
browser history (forward, back, etc.), printing pages, bookmarking pages,
opening links in new windows, closing windows, setting font sizes, etc.
--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanford alumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp. com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Good teachers are costly. Bad teachers cost more." - Bob Talbert

**Steve Pugh** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

Mason A. Clark <masoncERASETHI S@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
[color=blue]
>On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:19:46 +0000 (UTC), Darin McGrew
><mcgrew@stanfo rdalumni.org> wrote:[color=green]
>>
>>Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
>>pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.[/color]
>
>I've been accused of trolling. Isn't this a troll?
>
>If a page must be scrolled. Surely an easy flip to the top is a
>convenience to the viewer.[/color]

Yes, that's why the user has the Home key on their keyboard. It
returns them to the top of the page on every single page. Compare with
links that may or may not have been included on particular pages and
which if they are included will be in different places and styled
differently on every page. So which is easier for the user?

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

**Thomas Dowling** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

Els <els.aNOSPAM@ti scali.nl> wrote in
news:84v54bry5v kh.1nnl8wb24btd b.dlg@40tude.ne t:
[color=blue]
> Mason A. Clark wrote:[color=green]
>> <H2 id="fooname" .. has been suggested.
>>
>> But the W3C site says:
>>
>> "However, browser support for ID link destinations is very poor,
>> so A NAME will be needed for quite awhile. "
>>[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> Can't say I've found a user agent yet that fails to find <a
> id="foo" name="foo"></a>. Anyone know which one would fail that?[/color]

IIRC, Netscape 4. I didn't find the quoted page at W3C, but a similar
page at <http://www.htmlhelp.co m/reference/html40/special/a.html> is
dated from 1998, when NS4's various incompetencies would have merited a
warning like this.

--
Thomas Dowling
Ohio Library and Information Network

**Mason A. Clark** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 08:05:41 GMT, Mason A. Clark <masoncERASETHI S@ix.netcom.com >
wrote:
[color=blue]
>On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:19:46 +0000 (UTC), Darin McGrew
><mcgrew@stanfo rdalumni.org> wrote:[color=green]
>>
>>Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
>>pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.[/color]
>
>I've been accused of trolling. Isn't this a troll?
>
>If a page must be scrolled. Surely an easy flip to the top is a
>convenience to the viewer.
>
> Mason C but..... enough of this thread it's done ![/color]

In the *real world* there are users who do not know their
keys will do something -- home for example.

And users like me whose lazy hand rests on the mouse.

btw, why would one have a css allowing printing of
useless stuff on paper?

Start your own thread. This is mine. End it.

Mason C usenet czar, pompous ass, stuffed shirt

**Dave Anderson** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

Mason A. Clark wrote:[color=blue]
> On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 08:05:41 GMT, Mason A. Clark <masoncERASETHI S@ix.netcom.com >
> wrote:
>
> In the *real world* there are users who do not know their
> keys will do something -- home for example.[/color]

Except in rather unusual circumstances, it's *their* responsibility to
learn how to use their chosen browser.
[color=blue]
> And users like me whose lazy hand rests on the mouse.[/color]

"Improving the experience" for the clueless or lazy at the expense of
degrading it for those who've achieved at least minimal competence is
almost always a bad idea.
[color=blue]
> Start your own thread. This is mine. End it.
>
> Mason C usenet czar, pompous ass, stuffed shirt[/color]

Well, two out of three ain't bad...

Dave

**Darin McGrew** · Jul 24 '05, 12:43 AM

Re: <a name=foo> close?

I wrote:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Of course, I find "Return to the top of this page" links amusingly
>>> pointless anyway, but that's another discussion.[/color][/color][/color]

Mason A. Clark <masoncNOT@THIS ix.netcom.comQQ Q> wrote:[color=blue]
> In the *real world* there are users who do not know their
> keys will do something -- home for example.
>
> And users like me whose lazy hand rests on the mouse.[/color]

The browsers I'm familiar with have mouse-based ways to get to the top of
the page quickly, too.

The built-in mechanisms of the browser work reliably on every page. Web
authors' attempts to replicate browser functionality are less reliable.
And users who don't know how to use basic functions of their browsers will
only be confused when various pages imitate those functions inconsistently.
[color=blue]
> Start your own thread. This is mine. End it.[/color]

What makes you think that the original poster owns the thread? What makes
you think that anyone owns a thread? If you're tired of it, then stop
reading it. Killfiles are your friend.
--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanford alumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp. com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Shin: a device for finding furniture in the dark." - Steven Wright

<a name=foo> close?

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