Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

[Trammel]

Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).

My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox but IE
decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no breakable
spaces).

I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text in the
menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead of normal
ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still takes no notice and
wraps it).

Anyone got any idea's on a fix that would work for both browsers (Firefox
already works)?
Thanks in advance for you time & for reading this post.

[Tim]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 06:46:16 GMT,
"Trammel" <Me@Server.co m> posted:
[color=blue]
> Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
> cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).
>
> My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox but IE
> decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no breakable
> spaces).
>
> I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text in the
> menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead of normal
> ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still takes no notice and
> wraps it).[/color]

You have a peculiar array of non-breaking space indented text and nested
tables which I don't really want to even consider advising *much* about,
other than it's not a brilliant thing to do, and that nested lists (which
they are) with suitable CSS rules for indenting and other styling, is
probably better.

However, the wrapping problem that I can see with MSIE is at the hyphens,
not anywhere that you've used &nbsp; between words. MSIE is like that, it
does annoying and/or stupid things.

You can try putting nowrap as an attribute into the table cell [1], though
it's a deprecated technique and mightn't work in all situations. You can
apply a "white-space: pre" CSS style rule [2] in whatever element you don't
want to wrap, and that'll probably work in more situations.

1: e.g. <td nowrap>somethin g that's wrapping</td>
2: e.g. <td style="white-space:pre;">som ething that's wrapping</td>

--
If you insist on e-mailing me, use the reply-to address (it's real but
temporary). But please reply to the group, like you're supposed to.

This message was sent without a virus, please delete some files yourself.

[David Ross]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

Trammel wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
> cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).
>
> My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox but IE
> decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no breakable
> spaces).
>
> I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text in the
> menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead of normal
> ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still takes no notice and
> wraps it).
>
> Anyone got any idea's on a fix that would work for both browsers (Firefox
> already works)?
> Thanks in advance for you time & for reading this post.[/color]

I usually say this in defense of Mozilla and Firefox, but in this
case it will be in defense of IE. Your page is non-standard.

<URL:http://validator.w3.or g/> reports 84 HTML 4.01 errors.
<URL:http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/> reports 2 style-sheer
errors.
<URL:http://webxact.watchfi re.com/ScanForm.aspx> reports 22
instances of violations of WAI WCAG-1 Level A (the least
restrictive level for judging accessibility for the handicapped).

With the detected bugs in the Web page, it is not possible to
determine whether IE or the page itself is at fault.

--

David E. Ross
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/>

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.

[c.thornquist]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)


"Trammel" <Me@Server.co m> wrote in message
news:YiM3e.1658 7$C12.12875@fe1 .news.blueyonde r.co.uk...[color=blue]
> Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
> cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).
>[/color]
<snip>

You have too many unnecessary tables. Plus, IE displays tables better when
they are nested. You shouldn't leave tables floating like you do. Some of
yours are nested, but most are not. And there are much better ways to build
that navigation bar. Here's a free one: http://www.coffeecup.com/free-dhtml/

Have you set all your table borders to "1" just to see what your page
structure looks like? Have you ever used transparent .gifs as spacers? They
work well to control page layout. They, too, should be used sparingly.

Carla

[Trammel]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

Thanks for the links to validators... they helped a little to tidy my pages
code... but I didnt ask for help tidying it up by adding "Alt's" to links
and "px" after the CSS width's :¬/

I modifed the CSS to add "px" after the pixel widths however... so no moew
CSS errors
....and the only HTML errors are things like "Background is not valid in TD"
which is obviously wrong as its working in both IE & Firefox...
....and most of it is "errors" that I didnt bother putting Alt's for 1-pixel
images... OMG! How could I be so careless with my 1x1 pixel images?!?!!!?!

Im guessing from the amount of people complaining about not liking nested
tables & pointing out stupid error-logs from "validators " that I dont use
ALT tags in images (and other unrelated rubbish) that nobody here knows a
fix to stop IE from crushing a table that it shouldn't?

And frankly... there wont be any disabled people visiting my personal
webpage so I dont give a flying f*ck if they cant read the ALT tags for 1x1
pixel images!

If you dont have a fix then PLEASE dont post shite from "validators " that
say my code wont work because of things like no "Alt" tags in images >:¬O

If you hadn't gathered.... ALT tags and all the other rubbish returned as
"errors" are either false (like saying there is no background option in the
TD element.... which DOES work to show images) or aren't even errors and
intentionally left out (like ALT tags)...
....and no... none of that has ANY relevance to the table crushing by itself
in IE!!!!


To anyone reading this: Sorry... irrelevant "errors" being pointed out to
me just because someone is unable to help kinda got me pissed :¬/




"David Ross" <nobody@nowhere .not> wrote in message
news:425030A2.6 69048DF@nowhere .not...[color=blue]
> Trammel wrote:[color=green]
> >
> > Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
> > cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).
> >
> > My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox but[/color][/color]
IE[color=blue][color=green]
> > decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no breakable
> > spaces).
> >
> > I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text in[/color][/color]
the[color=blue][color=green]
> > menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead of normal
> > ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still takes no notice[/color][/color]
and[color=blue][color=green]
> > wraps it).
> >
> > Anyone got any idea's on a fix that would work for both browsers[/color][/color]
(Firefox[color=blue][color=green]
> > already works)?
> > Thanks in advance for you time & for reading this post.[/color]
>
> I usually say this in defense of Mozilla and Firefox, but in this
> case it will be in defense of IE. Your page is non-standard.
>
> <URL:http://validator.w3.or g/> reports 84 HTML 4.01 errors.
> <URL:http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/> reports 2 style-sheer
> errors.
> <URL:http://webxact.watchfi re.com/ScanForm.aspx> reports 22
> instances of violations of WAI WCAG-1 Level A (the least
> restrictive level for judging accessibility for the handicapped).
>
> With the detected bugs in the Web page, it is not possible to
> determine whether IE or the page itself is at fault.
>
> --
>
> David E. Ross
> <URL:http://www.rossde.com/>
>
> I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
> complies with Web standards. See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.[/color]

[Adrienne]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Trammel" <Me@Server.co m> writing
in news:yX44e.2452 4$r47.7586@fe3. news.blueyonder .co.uk:

Top posting fixed. The response is at the bottom.
[color=blue]
>
>
> "David Ross" <nobody@nowhere .not> wrote in message
> news:425030A2.6 69048DF@nowhere .not...[color=green]
>> Trammel wrote:[color=darkred]
>> >
>> > Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
>> > cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).
>> >
>> > My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox
>> > but IE decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no
>> > breakable spaces).
>> >
>> > I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text
>> > in the menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead
>> > of normal ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still
>> > takes no notice and wraps it).
>> >
>> > Anyone got any idea's on a fix that would work for both browsers
>> > (Firefox already works)?
>> > Thanks in advance for you time & for reading this post.[/color]
>>
>> I usually say this in defense of Mozilla and Firefox, but in this
>> case it will be in defense of IE. Your page is non-standard.
>>
>> <URL:http://validator.w3.or g/> reports 84 HTML 4.01 errors.
>> <URL:http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/> reports 2 style-sheer
>> errors. <URL:http://webxact.watchfi re.com/ScanForm.aspx> reports 22
>> instances of violations of WAI WCAG-1 Level A (the least
>> restrictive level for judging accessibility for the handicapped).
>>
>> With the detected bugs in the Web page, it is not possible to
>> determine whether IE or the page itself is at fault.
>>[/color]
> Thanks for the links to validators... they helped a little to tidy my
> pages code... but I didnt ask for help tidying it up by adding "Alt's"
> to links and "px" after the CSS width's :¬/[/color]

You have to have some sort of unit of measurement with CSS. With HTML, if
a unit is not a percentage, then it is a pixel. With CSS, you can have
points, picas, centimeters, inches, millimeters, pixels, ems, exes and
percentages; hence the need to specify the unit.
[color=blue]
>
> I modifed the CSS to add "px" after the pixel widths however... so no
> moew CSS errors
> ...and the only HTML errors are things like "Background is not valid in
> TD" which is obviously wrong as its working in both IE & Firefox...[/color]

It might "work" in both IE and Firefox, but it's still invalid. The reason
it is invalid is because it is deprecated in favor of CSS. Why is CSS
better? If a client decides tomorrow that they want seasonal colors, then
the author has to go into each td and make that change, instead of making
one change in a style sheet.
[color=blue]
> ...and most of it is "errors" that I didnt bother putting Alt's for
> 1-pixel images... OMG! How could I be so careless with my 1x1 pixel
> images?!?!!!?![/color]

If an image is for decoration only and does not convey anything, then leave
the alt attribute blank, alt="".
[color=blue]
>
> Im guessing from the amount of people complaining about not liking
> nested tables & pointing out stupid error-logs from "validators " that I
> dont use ALT tags in images (and other unrelated rubbish) that nobody
> here knows a fix to stop IE from crushing a table that it shouldn't?[/color]

Nested tables are a PITA to debug. They also take longer to load, and are
more prone to errors.
[color=blue]
>
> And frankly... there wont be any disabled people visiting my personal
> webpage so I dont give a flying f*ck if they cant read the ALT tags for
> 1x1 pixel images![/color]

Again, leave the value of the alt attribute blank, alt="". How do you know
that no disabled people are going to visit your personal webpage? If your
personal webpage is on the Internet, then you really don't know who is
going to visit.

Further, because it IS a personal page, you should take pride in it. It is
a reflection of you, and your work. How do you know some potential
employer isn't going to view the page and run it through a validator?
[color=blue]
>
> If you dont have a fix then PLEASE dont post shite from "validators "
> that say my code wont work because of things like no "Alt" tags in
> images >:¬O[/color]

You have more serious validation errors than missing alt attributes. For
example, you have <font>....<tabl e>... In the first place, a font element
can't hold a table element, and second, font is also deprecated in favor of
CSS.

It might work with this markup now, but, it might not work for other
browsers now and in the future. And yes, there are browsers other than FF
and IE.
[color=blue]
>
> If you hadn't gathered.... ALT tags and all the other rubbish returned
> as "errors" are either false (like saying there is no background option
> in the TD element.... which DOES work to show images) or aren't even
> errors and intentionally left out (like ALT tags)...
> ...and no... none of that has ANY relevance to the table crushing by
> itself in IE!!!!
>[/color]

The validator does not return false errors. It is a tool to help you find
out why something is not working the way you want it to. Fix the errors
first, and then see if it might not have cleared up. Fixing the alt error
is very simple, just do a search and replace, eg: replace {<img src} with
{<img alt="" src} (curly brackets added for clarity) and you'll be good to
go.
[color=blue]
>
> To anyone reading this: Sorry... irrelevant "errors" being pointed out
> to me just because someone is unable to help kinda got me pissed :¬/
>
>[/color]

You forget, this is not a 24/7 help desk.



--
Adrienne Boswell

http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info

Please respond to the group so others can share

[Peter1968]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

Adrienne wrote:
[color=blue]
>
> You forget, this is not a 24/7 help desk.[/color]

What's its opening hours then? =)

[Blinky the Shark]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

Peter1968 wrote:
[color=blue]
> Adrienne wrote:[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> You forget, this is not a 24/7 help desk.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> What's its opening hours then? =)[/color]

Opening, hell...when's Happy Hour? :)

--
Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups

[Steve Pugh]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

"Trammel" <Me@Server.co m> wrote:
[color=blue]
>And frankly... there wont be any disabled people visiting my personal
>webpage so I dont give a flying f*ck if they cant read the ALT tags for 1x1
>pixel images![/color]

I know exactly why IE is breaking your tables. I know exactly how to
fix it. But because you're clearly a right little shit, I'm not going
to bother wasting any time on you, and I bet I'm not he only one. Bye.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[Stan Brown]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

"Trammel" wrote in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html:[color=blue]
>To anyone reading this: Sorry... irrelevant "errors" being pointed out to
>me just because someone is unable to help kinda got me pissed :¬/[/color]

Translation: You didn't like the help you got , so you choose to
deny that it _is_ help.

--

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA

http://OakRoadSystems.com/

[Uncle Pirate]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

Steve Pugh wrote:[color=blue]
> "Trammel" <Me@Server.co m> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>And frankly... there wont be any disabled people visiting my personal
>>webpage so I dont give a flying f*ck if they cant read the ALT tags for 1x1
>>pixel images![/color]
>
>
> I know exactly why IE is breaking your tables. I know exactly how to
> fix it. But because you're clearly a right little shit, I'm not going
> to bother wasting any time on you, and I bet I'm not he only one. Bye.
>
> Steve
>[/color]

I care about helping this idiot about as much as he cares about hearing
about me visiting his web page. (I'm disabled, I can see just fine with
one eye, but I can't walk. But, ya gotta give him that he didn't
discriminate; he doesn't seem to give a flying whatever for *any* disabled.)

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
Coordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :( http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

Trammel wrote:[color=blue]
> If you dont have a fix then PLEASE dont post shite from "validators " that
> say my code wont work because of things like no "Alt" tags in images >:¬O
>
> If you hadn't gathered.... ALT tags and all the other rubbish returned as
> "errors" are either false[/color]

No, sorry, they are true. You may not *care* that your code is
incorrect, but it is.

(like saying there is no background option in the[color=blue]
> TD element.... which DOES work to show images)[/color]

Define "work". Yes, some browsers have been designed to accommodate some
bad code as well as good code. But then, you can never predict which bad
code will "work" in any given browser, and if you don't think that
"works" means something other than whether a particular browser happens
to get it right, then you might wind up down the road wondering why the
heck something suddenly *doesn't* work.

Here's an analogy. A correct way to ask someone for something is "May I
please have such-and-such?" An incorrect way is "Give me some of that
such-and-such, you stupid git, or I'll beat you to a bloody pulp." The
latter may get you what you want once or twice, but if you think that
that means it "works" and that it's correct, you're in for a surprise.


or aren't even errors and[color=blue]
> intentionally left out (like ALT tags)...[/color]

If you drive down the wrong side of the road a 3 in the morning and
don't have an accident, does that mean it wasn't "wrong"?

[Stan Brown]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

"Harlan Messinger" wrote in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html:[color=blue]
>Here's an analogy. A correct way to ask someone for something is "May I
>please have such-and-such?" An incorrect way is "Give me some of that
>such-and-such, you stupid git, or I'll beat you to a bloody pulp." The
>latter may get you what you want once or twice, but if you think that
>that means it "works" and that it's correct, you're in for a surprise.[/color]

Good analogy, snce he seems to be taking the second approach toward
this newsgroup. :-)

--

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA

http://OakRoadSystems.com/

[Jan Roland Eriksson]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 06:14:54 GMT, "Trammel" <Me@Server.co m> wrote:
[...][color=blue]
>...and most of it is "errors" that I didnt bother putting Alt's for 1-pixel
>images... OMG! How could I be so careless with my 1x1 pixel images?!?!!!?![/color]

You are missing required "ALT attribute values",
there is no such thing as an "ALT tag".
[color=blue]
>Im guessing from the amount of people complaining about not liking nested
>tables & pointing out stupid error-logs from "validators " that I dont use
>ALT tags...[/color]

"ALT attributes"...
[color=blue]
>...in images (and other unrelated rubbish) that nobody here knows a
>fix to stop IE from crushing a table that it shouldn't?[/color]

Oh; people here knows a lot more than you know but your attitude sort
of prohibits you from seeing it.
[color=blue]
>And frankly... there wont be any disabled people visiting my personal
>webpage...[/color]

Yes there is, the worlds biggest www user with built in disabilities
goes by the name of "Google". It can't see images, it can't do java
script and it can't do Flash or any other "plug in" feature either.

Whatever is left over after you remove that extra noise from your
basic markup is what Google can use to rate your pages.

But Google can, and does, read ALT attribute values so it's a pretty
good idea to tell it what your images are all about by filling in some
realistic values for your ALT attributes.

Note that for "worthless" IMG's an empty string value, as in ALT=""
may be appropriate, or better yet, don't place "worthless" info in
your pages in the first place.
[color=blue]
>so I dont give a flying f*ck if they cant read the ALT tags for 1x1
>pixel images![/color]

"ALT attributes" for crying out loud; is there something wrong with
your ears? or is your disability isolated to the volume of tapioca
pudding that you carry around /between/ your ears?

--
Rex

[Andy Dingley]

Re: Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 09:55:51 +0100, Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net > wrote:
[color=blue]
>I bet I'm not he only one. Bye.[/color]

We differ in one significant point, Steve.

You got as far as line #16, I plonked him at #8 after
"which is obviously wrong as its working in both IE & Firefox..."