non-breaking hyphens??

[Brian]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

Dr John Stockton wrote:
[color=blue]
> Looking backwards, <table> should have been something more generic,
> such as <grid>, with optional type=layout / type=data / type=??.[/color]

And what would be the point of <grid type="layout"> for for non-visual
user-agents?

--
Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)

http://www.tsmchughs.com/

[Toby Inkster]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
[color=blue]
> [tel: URLs] would be a different dimension. If it actually worked - and
> maybe some special browsers already support it[/color]

Opera can be configured to launch an external application for tel: URLs. I
would be highly surprised if IE/win and Mozilla (w/ Protozilla) can't.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

[Jim Watt]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

Toby Inkster <usenet200410@t obyinkster.co.u k> wrote in message news:<pan.2004. 10.11.19.56.31. 812670@tobyinks ter.co.uk>...[color=blue]
> Barbara de Zoete wrote:[color=green]
> > Op Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:56:17 +0100, schreef Toby Inkster
> > <usenet200410@t obyinkster.co.u k>:
> >[color=darkred]
> >> Though as I pointed out the UK is not "doing things differently from
> >> everybody else" when it comes to driving on the left. It's doing things
> >> the same as plenty of other contries, including Ireland, Japan, India,
> >> Pakistan, Australia, New Zealand, most of sub-Saharan Africa, most of
> >> South-East Asia and parts of South America.[/color]
> >
> > Except for Japan, remind me of the (former) terratory of the British
> > Colonies, if you please. As far as I can see, you just gave a pretty
> > accurate descrition of the former British Empire.[/color]
>
> Well, Macau has never been under British rule -- it was Portugese until
> 1999 and is now a Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic
> of China. Then drive on the left there. The US Virgin Islands were a
> Dutch territory, which was then sold to the US. They drive on the left
> there. Most of Indonesia has never been under British rule (one or two
> provinces were briefly). They drive on the left there.
>
> Converesly, Canada and the USA have been under British rule. Gibraltar is
> *currently* under British rule. They all drive on the right.[/color]

Interestingly enough we started driving on the left, but it soon became
clear that as Spain was larger, adjacent and land communications OK
that it would cause a problem, so the Governor of the day, being a far
sighted fellow changed the rules.

--
Jim Watt

https://www.gibnet.com

[Dr John Stockton]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

JRS: In article <3YUad.691472$G x4.112117@bgtns c04-news.ops.worldn et.att
..net>, dated Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:59:27, seen in news:comp.infos ystems.ww
w.authoring.htm l, Brian <usenet3@juliet remblay.com.inv alid> posted :[color=blue]
>Dr John Stockton wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Looking backwards, <table> should have been something more generic,
>> such as <grid>, with optional type=layout / type=data / type=??.[/color]
>
>And what would be the point of <grid type="layout"> for for non-visual
>user-agents?[/color]

Exactly the same as <table> used for layout, except that it can be made
clear that it is not a data table.

Exactly the same as using CSS or other means for positioning on a page.

AFAICS, a non-visual system must either ignore layout, describe layout
verbally, or compromise.

The notation does make it clear that the item has a layout, but is not a
data table.

I would make the type attribute formally compulsory, so that it cannot
be totally forgotten by those who use validators; but I would expect
displaying agents either to make an intelligent guess or to have a known
default. Other types might be invented.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ???@merlyn.demo n.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demo n.co.uk/> - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
Dates - miscdate.htm Year 2000 - date2000.htm Critical Dates - critdate.htm
Euro computing - european.htm UK Y2k mini-FAQ: y2k_mfaq.txt Don't Mail News

[Neal]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:35:43 +0100, Dr John Stockton
<spam@merlyn.de mon.co.uk> wrote:
[color=blue]
> JRS: In article <3YUad.691472$G x4.112117@bgtns c04-news.ops.worldn et.att
> .net>, dated Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:59:27, seen in news:comp.infos ystems.ww
> w.authoring.htm l, Brian <usenet3@juliet remblay.com.inv alid> posted :[color=green]
>> Dr John Stockton wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Looking backwards, <table> should have been something more generic,
>>> such as <grid>, with optional type=layout / type=data / type=??.[/color]
>>
>> And what would be the point of <grid type="layout"> for for non-visual
>> user-agents?[/color]
>
> Exactly the same as <table> used for layout, except that it can be made
> clear that it is not a data table.[/color]

You're not really thinking about this.

table tells the user agent, visual or not, that the contents are related
in some fashion. UAs can then allow grouping of a column or row. The
usefulness of this to a non-visual browser is obvious.

What you're proposing is that a similar markup called "grid" be settable
for tabular or presentational interpretation. But it remains that barely
anyone here will grant you that we should be doing presentation in the
HTML.

table used for tabular data is only presentational because of the
relationship of the data. It's not meant to inflict a grid on the user.
[color=blue]
> Exactly the same as using CSS or other means for positioning on a page.[/color]

Except CSS is what is properly used for layout, and HTML is not.
[color=blue]
> AFAICS, a non-visual system must either ignore layout, describe layout
> verbally, or compromise.[/color]

Of course. The aural user relies on linearization of content. Proper use
of table markup makes this not difficult. Abuse of it can. Your grid idea
does nothing to improve upon table, in fact its implementation could only
be as or less effective.
[color=blue]
> The notation does make it clear that the item has a layout, but is not a
> data table.[/color]

Then why not use the tool for the job? You can drive a nail with a monkey
wrench, but why not use a hammer when you have one?
[color=blue]
> I would make the type attribute formally compulsory, so that it cannot
> be totally forgotten by those who use validators; but I would expect
> displaying agents either to make an intelligent guess or to have a known
> default. Other types might be invented.[/color]

I say we "table" this discussion.

[Brian]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

Dr John Stockton wrote:[color=blue]
> Brian posted :[/color]
[attribute novel snipped]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Dr John Stockton wrote:
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Looking backwards, <table> should have been something more
>>> generic, such as <grid>, with optional type=layout / type=data /
>>> type=??.[/color]
>>
>> And what would be the point of <grid type="layout"> for for
>> non-visual user-agents?[/color]
>
>
> Exactly the same as <table> used for layout,[/color]

I see.
[color=blue]
> Exactly the same as using CSS or other means for positioning on a
> page.[/color]

CSS is optional. A non-visual ua should ignore CSS intended for screen
media. What should it do with <grid> markup?
[color=blue]
> AFAICS, a non-visual system must either ignore layout,[/color]

That would make sense. But it would make more sense if the markup
language stuck to the meaning, no?

--
Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)

http://www.tsmchughs.com/

[Brian]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

Dr John Stockton wrote:
[color=blue]
> Looking backwards, <table> should have been something more generic, such
> as <grid>, with optional type=layout / type=data / type=??.[/color]

<indent type="margin">

<indent type="blockquot e">

--
Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)

http://www.tsmchughs.com/

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

Brian <usenet3@juliet remblay.com.inv alid> wrote:
[color=blue]
> <indent type="margin">
>
> <indent type="blockquot e">[/color]

Some Microsoft software generates
<blockquote type="cite">
probably to distinguish a quotation (in some sense) from plain
<blockquote>, which is apparently treated as meaning just 'indent'. So
it's the same idea, just using different names.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

[Brian]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:[color=blue]
> Brian wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>> <indent type="margin">
>>
>> <indent type="blockquot e">[/color]
>
>
> Some Microsoft software generates <blockquote type="cite"> probably
> to distinguish a quotation (in some sense) from plain <blockquote>,
> which is apparently treated as meaning just 'indent'. So it's the
> same idea, just using different names.[/color]


! And I was just making a wiseacre comment. I didn't know there was
something like that out in the wild.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)

[Dr John Stockton]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

JRS: In article <BRfbd.695394$G x4.249221@bgtns c04-news.ops.worldn et.att
..net>, dated Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:02:41, seen in news:comp.infos ystems.ww
w.authoring.htm l, Brian <usenet3@juliet remblay.com.inv alid> posted :[color=blue]
>Dr John Stockton wrote:[color=green]
>> Brian posted :[/color]
>[attribute novel snipped]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Dr John Stockton wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Looking backwards, <table> should have been something more
>>>> generic, such as <grid>, with optional type=layout / type=data /
>>>> type=??.
>>>
>>> And what would be the point of <grid type="layout"> for for
>>> non-visual user-agents?[/color]
>>
>>
>> Exactly the same as <table> used for layout,[/color]
>
>I see.
>[color=green]
>> Exactly the same as using CSS or other means for positioning on a
>> page.[/color]
>
>CSS is optional.[/color]

Actually, it is not; it is not even available. Remember, as quoted
above, this is "looking backwards" to when <table> was new and AIUI CSS
was not dreamt of.

One must distinguish between a feasible proposal, that might possibly be
implemented in the future, and a looking back at previous decisions in
the hope of learning how to make better ones in future.


[color=blue]
> A non-visual ua should ignore CSS intended for screen
>media. What should it do with <grid> markup?
>[color=green]
>> AFAICS, a non-visual system must either ignore layout,[/color]
>
>That would make sense. But it would make more sense if the markup
>language stuck to the meaning, no?[/color]

No, not when there was no alternative means of influencing layout.


However, it is clear from the reports of

http://checker.atrc.utoronto.ca/index.html

that presumably knowledgeable authors consider that tables *are* being
used for layout, and that accessibility checking can allow this.

How should, other than by a table, something like
<table cellspacing=9>
<tr><td>Aaa</td><td>Bb</td><td>Cc</td><td>Ddd</td><td>kjyh</td></tr>
<tr><td>3</td><td>gh</td><td>vdvdv</td><td>h</td><td>pp</td></tr>
<tr><td>...</td><td> </td><td>66</td><td>s</td><td>a</td></tr>
</table>
be done - not tabular data, but a spread arrangement of similar items of
different sizes?

It is a visual effect that might well be wanted; and a speech browser
needs to cope.


--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon. co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demo n.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Proper <= 4-line sig. separator as above, a line exactly "-- " (SonOfRFC1036)
Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (SonOfRFC1036)

[Brian]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

Dr John Stockton wrote:[color=blue]
> Brian posted :
>[color=green]
>> Dr John Stockton wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Brian posted :[/color]
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>> Dr John Stockton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Looking backwards, <table> should have been something more
>>>>> generic, such as <grid>, with optional type=layout /
>>>>> type=data / type=??.
>>>>
>>>> And what would be the point of <grid type="layout"> for for
>>>> non-visual user-agents?
>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly the same as <table> used for layout,[/color]
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Exactly the same as using CSS or other means for positioning on a
>>> page.[/color]
>>
>> CSS is optional.[/color]
>
>
> Actually, it is not; it is not even available. Remember, as quoted
> above, this is "looking backwards" to when <table> was new and AIUI
> CSS was not dreamt of.[/color]

CSS was dreamt of. TBL even had some prototype stylesheet language
working on his browser. But it's true that CSS was not implemented,
mostely because of a lack of interest from those calling the shots at
the time.
[color=blue]
> One must distinguish between a feasible proposal, that might possibly
> be implemented in the future, and a looking back at previous
> decisions in the hope of learning how to make better ones in future.[/color]

In that case, <grid> is even more senseless. If we go back and figure
out how they could have made www authoring better, then introducing a
stylesheet language, and losing all the presentational HTML codified in
3.2 would have been a good choice.
[color=blue]
> However, it is clear from the reports of
> http://checker.atrc.utoronto.ca/index.html that presumably
> knowledgeable authors consider that tables *are* being used for
> layout[/color]

Not exactly earth-shattering news there. We don't need to consult
reports to learn that; View -> page source works as well.
[color=blue]
> How should, other than by a table, something like
> <table cellspacing=9>
> <tr><td>Aaa</td><td>Bb</td><td>Cc</td><td>Ddd</td><td>kjyh</td></tr>
> <tr><td>3</td><td>gh</td><td>vdvdv</td><td>h</td><td>pp</td></tr>
> <tr><td>...</td><td> </td><td>66</td><td>s</td><td>a</td></tr>
> </table>
> be done - not tabular data, but a spread arrangement of similar items of
> different sizes?[/color]

With a stylesheet, of course. Was this a trick question?
[color=blue]
> It is a visual effect that might well be wanted; and a speech browser
> needs to cope.[/color]

And download all that code, needlessly. And decide that it is not data,
via heuristics, possibly getting it wrong. Your solution is to provide
an attribute that essentially says, "this is for real" or "ignore this
markup". Strange solution. The more obvious one is, if it's not a table,
don't use <table>.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)

[Shawn K. Quinn]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

begin quote from Dr John Stockton in <Oiuf09A6x7aBFw 8L@merlyn.demon .co.uk>:
[color=blue]
> JRS: In article <1u5mm01hsiis1u l7q5jq6u69ihfte 8foqs@4ax.com>, dated
> Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:32:41, seen in news:comp.infos ystems.www.authoring.h
> tml, Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.rem ovethis@comcast .net> posted :
>[color=green]
>>Semantics are exactly what's significant for HTML. Therefore, to mark
>>something up as a number that isn't a number would be incorrect.[/color]
>
> Indeed. But to treat as a number something that needs to be treated as
> a number but happens not to be a number is perfectly in order.[/color]

Apparently you missed the entire point of what Harlan was saying.
[color=blue]
> something like <nobr>, which can be used wherever it fits,[/color]

<nobr> isn't in HTML. And for good reason, too, as this kind of thing
belongs in CSS.
[color=blue]
> Looking backwards, <table> should have been something more generic, such
> as <grid>, with optional type=layout / type=data / type=??.[/color]

No, this kind of thing doesn't belong in HTML, as that is a strictly
presentational element. <table> implies structure (tabular data), <grid>
does not.

--
Shawn K. Quinn

[Harlan Messinger]

Re: non-breaking hyphens??

Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.rem ovethis@comcast .net> wrote:
[color=blue]
>We've been recognizing phone numbers here without difficulty for the
>past century or more, without kibbitzing by international standards
>organization s, so in what sense are there no "familiar conventions"?
>
>I have a confession: I think that uniformity has fallen by the wayside
>here. I have a recollection that phone numbers always appeared as
>(xxxx) xxx-xxxx, but nowadays I see xxx-xxx-xxxx a lot too.[/color]

(There should have been three x's between the parentheses above.)

I was just mulling all this over. I edit a newsletter in which I had
standardized phone numbers on the older parenthetical model. I've just
been giving an article listing a collection of area businesses and
organizations with their phone numbers, written in the newer form. On
the verge of changing them to the older form, this thread came to
mind, and it occurred to me that the new form now makes sense and the
old form really is obsolete. So I'm switching to the fully hyphenated
version as my standard form.

Explanation: In the earlier days of direct long-distance dialing in
the US, an area code really was a parenthetical. It wasn't used for
routine calls, only for calls out of the area. When one listed one's
phone number, it made sense to write it as (xxx) xxx-xxxx because
local people didn't use the first three digits..

Now, with smaller and often overlapping area code zones, we have to
use the area code for every call. It's no longer a parenthetical but
an inseparable part of the number. So maybe that's why people have
begun using the format xxx-xxx-xxxx. It makes more sense.

[ObHTML: Do any mobile phone-based browsers include the ability to
directly dial a phone number on a Web page?]


--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.