No future for DB2

[rkusenet]

Re: No future for DB2 - slightly off-topic, discusses what people are being taught at uni

"Neil Truby" <neil.truby@ard enta.com> wrote in message
news:3l3kneF10n 87tU1@individua l.net...[color=blue]
> Speaking from my experience in the UK I find an even wider trend: in the
> four years by consultancy has been going we've recruited several graduate
> trainees. In 2001 and 2002 you could be pretty sure that most applicants
> from university would have a pretty decent grounding in UNIX and/or Linux,
> these being the platforms favoured by academia. We'd also find that most
> would have done at least one hands-on course or practical assignment with
> SQL Server or Oracle.
>
> We didn't recruit in 2003 or 2004 and this year has been a real[/color]
eye-opener.[color=blue]
> Perhaps less than one in five applicants has had *any* practical[/color]
experience[color=blue]
> of a non-Windows OS - if they know about UNIX/Linux at all it's because
> they're done a theoeritical course lasting a most a couple of hours.[/color]
Also,[color=blue]
> the level of database theory has dropped too: asked to name a commercial
> database system they name Access, which is the "database" that the[/color]
majority[color=blue]
> of them have hands-on experience of. A few had also used SQL (as they[/color]
call[color=blue]
> SQL Server, using the phrases interchangably) . One or two were able to[/color]
name[color=blue]
> a non-MS database product, which was Oracle. None had heard of DB2,[/color]
Ingres,[color=blue]
> Informix etc.
>
> When we probed into the characteristics of a database, and why it might be
> more effective for retrieving small sets of data from much larger sets,[/color]
most[color=blue]
> struggled, and although one or two had a grasp of the principle of indexes
> (or "keys"), I'm can only remember one correctly identifying, even at a[/color]
high[color=blue]
> level, how an index might help in this regard.
>
> All this change in just 4 years or less. I've no reason to believe that[/color]
the[color=blue]
> academic qualities of applicants is lower than in previous years: indeed[/color]
we[color=blue]
> met some brilliant young people. But I infer from this exercise that UK
> academia at least has quickly gone from a bastion of UNIX to not teaching
> anything non-MS.[/color]

The project I am working on has been developed by UK folks and we are
customizing it for this Canadian customer. I too got a feeling that those
guys are experts only in SQL Server.
Their concept of a RDBMS seems to be weak. For e.g. in SQL Server
one can create a Foreign Key without creating an index. In fact index
creation on the FKY columns is a separate process. Same in Oracle
and DB2. What the UK folks never realized is that almost all the time
a FKY column is joined with PKY column for Query (otherwise why
would it be a separate table). So creating index on the FKY column
should be automatic when creating the FKY constraint.
When I joined the project, one of the first fire I had to fight in the
testing phase was locking. SQL server use to do table scan when it
can't find matching index and that pretty soon escalated into locking
and deadlock problem.
ISOLATION LEVEL - well most of them don't even know what it is,
let alone it is.

I am beginning to wonder whether being a full time DBA is a
dying profession left for old fogies like me.

[DA Morgan]

Re: No future for DB2

Mark A wrote:[color=blue]
> "DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug .org> wrote in message
> news:1122836023 .709609@yasure. ..
>[color=green]
>>Oracle has one ... RMAN ... how many less does DB2 have?
>>
>>Daniel A. Morgan[/color]
>
>
> I think he is talking about the Oracle control files, which are optionally
> backed up. RMAN is a big improvement for backups compared to what was
> previously required in Oracle, but amazingly not everyone uses it.
>
> DB2 just has one command, the backup command. All of the control files
> needed to restore a database are included. If doing an online backup, you
> can also include the log files that were active during the online backup in
> the backup image.[/color]

I think he is talking about dinosaurs that still use command line
scripts to back up Oracle and thus have to concern themselves with
control files, log files, data files, temp files, etc. But lets
acknowledge that these DBAs are dinosaurs using techniques no longer
reflecting best practice in the product.

Sole exception from my comment ... those poor souls precluded from
upgrading to 9i or above by management short-sightedness.
--
Daniel A. Morgan

http://www.psoug.org

damorgan@x.wash ington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)

[Bob Jones]

Re: No future for DB2

> the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning[color=blue]
> that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing
> great technology but may loose the market.
>[/color]
[color=blue]
> If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals
> serious and start doing something about it.
>[/color]

I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software surely
does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more services
and supports are needed.

IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is no
longer a great technology by today's standard.

[Larry]

Re: No future for DB2

Hmmm. You really need to take another look ... or a closer look at DB2
re ease of use.

Larry

Bob Jones wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning
>>that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing
>>great technology but may loose the market.
>>[/color]
>
>[color=green]
>>If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals
>>serious and start doing something about it.
>>[/color]
>
>
> I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software surely
> does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more services
> and supports are needed.
>
> IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is no
> longer a great technology by today's standard.
>
>[/color]

[Data Goob]

Re: No future for DB2

One thing is for sure Noons, you're just a fucking dickhead, the way
you insult people. It really lowered your credibility once you started
hurling your trash at people. Some of the brightest minds are here and
you are the most disrespectful person I've had to put up with in some time.
The way you have resorted to insults tells all of us that you have nothing
substantial to argue your points, instead all you can do are personal
attacks.

Someday you will be in a situation where you will indeed get your arrogant
ass kicked, hopefully a nice clean pop to the face, breaking your nose,
and putting you in your place. Then you won't be so quick to insult
people, and blather on with your insults and disrespect. My prayer is to
be on the bus that you step in front of.

SHAME ON YOU.

[Captain Pedantic]

Re: No future for DB2

"Data Goob" <datagoob@netsc ape.net> wrote in message
news:qa7Je.1625 $s5.1196@fe21.u senetserver.com ...[color=blue]
> "One thing is for sure Noons, you're just a fucking dickhead, the way
> you insult people..."[/color]

.... he said, without apparent irony.

[Bob Jones]

Re: No future for DB2

[color=blue]
> Hmmm. You really need to take another look ... or a closer look at DB2
> re ease of use.
>
> Larry
>
> Bob Jones wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning
>>>that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing
>>>great technology but may loose the market.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals
>>>serious and start doing something about it.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>
>> I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software
>> surely does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more
>> services and supports are needed.
>>
>> IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is
>> no longer a great technology by today's standard.[/color][/color]

I forgot about DB2 for a moment. It ranks #3 out of 3. That's very good.

[Noons]

Re: No future for DB2

Data Goob apparently said,on my timestamp of 7/08/2005 4:19 AM:[color=blue]
> One thing is for sure Noons, you're just a fucking dickhead, the way[/color]

One thing is for sure, arsehole: I don't give a rat's arse
what YOU and your dirty lot think of me.
[color=blue]
> you are the most disrespectful person I've had to put up with in some time.[/color]

Respect is earned, not due. Got it dickhead?
[color=blue]
> Someday you will be in a situation where you will indeed get your arrogant
> ass kicked, hopefully a nice clean pop to the face, breaking your nose,
> and putting you in your place.[/color]

I'm just shaking soooo much already.
It really shows the kind of mob attitude your organisation abides.
Would you like me to copy here the e-mail bounce I received from
IBM? Apparently someone has been copying my messages and sending
them to internal addresses. Which stupidly bounce. Typical mafia:
stupid to the end...
[color=blue]
> Then you won't be so quick to insult
> people, and blather on with your insults and disrespect. My prayer is to
> be on the bus that you step in front of.[/color]

Make sure it's a bloody big bus. You wouldn't be the first
in your little stable of mafiosi to try and harm me. Guess what:
they got nowhere and they're the ones with nothing ahead of them now.
[color=blue]
> SHAME ON YOU.[/color]

SCREW YOU

[bka]

Re: No future for DB2

Serenity now!

http://www.stanthecaddy.com/the-serenity-now.html

[Anton Versteeg]

Re: Excellent future for DB2

Bob Jones wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning
>>that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing
>>great technology but may loose the market.
>>[/color]
>
>[color=green]
>>If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals
>>serious and start doing something about it.
>>[/color]
>
>
> I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software surely
> does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more services
> and supports are needed.
>
> IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is no
> longer a great technology by today's standard.
>
>[/color]
You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
'By todays standard' must be 'by your standard'
DB2 ranks #1 in many places. So where is your #3 coming from?
Which ranking?
Reading your post, I quess one cannot be any more vague than you are.

--
Anton Versteeg
IBM Netherlands

[DA Morgan]

Re: Excellent future for DB2

Anton Versteeg wrote:
[color=blue]
> You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
> 'By todays standard' must be 'by your standard'
> DB2 ranks #1 in many places. So where is your #3 coming from?
> Which ranking?
> Reading your post, I quess one cannot be any more vague than you are.[/color]

A better question would be ... why would anyone who is a technologist
rather than a marketing drone care? I don't make a living off of Oracle
selling more licenses than FireBird much less DB2 or Informix. Doesn't
affect my ability to put food on the table or keep the boat in the
water.

When a software company wants me to care about their marketshare ...
they will write me a check. Until then all I care about is the number
of available jobs and my bill rate.
--
Daniel A. Morgan

http://www.psoug.org

damorgan@x.wash ington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)

[Joel Garry]

Re: No future for DB2


Larry wrote:[color=blue]
> I duuno ... don't see any signs that IBM is losing significant market
> share. Look at other examples in various industries ... for many
> products, there are usually at least 2 or 3 or 4 main survivors who end
> up there for the long-term. You don't even have to be the market share
> leader ... just have a significant presence. Hertz/Avis,
> American/United/Delta, Krups/Braun/Cuisinart, pick your example.[/color]

Man, you know how to pick some bad examples. Hertz/Avis bought by auto
manufacturers to dump unwanted cars, declining market share due to
Enterprise et al,

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_km3609/is_200301/ai_n8624267

in as bad shape as airlines. American/United/Delta - do you not read
the papers? "These days no one can make money on the goddamn airline
business. The economics represent sheer hell." - C. R. Smith,
President of American Airlines. "A recession is when you have to
tighten your belt; depression is when you have no belt to tighten. When
you've lost your trousers - you're in the airline business." - Sir
Adam Thomson "This is a nasty, rotten business." - Robert L.
Crandall, CEO & President of American Airlines. "Today, the situation
is exacerbated with costs exceeding revenues at four times the
pre-September 11 rate. Today, we are literally hemorrhaging money.
Clearly this bleeding has to be stopped - and soon - or United will
perish sometime next year." - James Goodwin, chairman and CEO of
United's parent company UAL. The unions of the (at the time) employee
owned company forced his replacement. 17 October, 2001 "I didn't take
this job to preside over a bankruptcy. I refuse to accept that United
Airlines is collateral damage from Sept. 11." - Jack Creighton, new
chairman and CEO of UAL Corporation, 28 October 2001. UAL entered
bankruptcy on 9 December 2002. "You fucking academic eggheads! You
don't know shit. You can't deregulate this industry. You're going to
wreck it. You don't know a goddamn thing!" - Robert L. Crandall, CEO
American Airlines, addressing a Senate lawyer prior to airline
deregulation, 1977. "Deregulati on will be the greatest thing to happen
to the airlines since the jet engine." - Richard Ferris, CEO United
Airlines, 1976. "If we went into the funeral business, people would
stop dying." - Martin R. Shugrue, Vice-chairman Pan Am. "I can't
imagine a set of circumstances that would produce Chapter 11 for
Eastern." - Frank Lorenzo "As a businessman, Frank Lorenzo gives
capitalism a bad name." - William F. Buckley "If you would look up
bad labor relations in the dictionary, you would have an American
Airlines logo beside it." - U.S. District Judge Joe Kendall, issuing
a restraining order against an American Airlines APA pilot union sick
out, 10 Feb 1999. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8703311/ Delta about to
croak... Don't know anything about the Germans besides
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/1/6/...11662-h.htm#17 and
Braun makes a lot of money with shaver cleaning device refills.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jono/negative-information.html

[Larry]

Re: No future for DB2

I didn't say anything about the economic climate of any industry at all.
They are actually very good examples.

The point (as you seem to have completely missed it) is that when you
purchase a product, you most often don't care that your buying from #1
or #2 or #3 in the industry. And being #1 or #2 or #3 is usually good
enough to maintain survival.

When you make travel plans, you don't ask which carrier leads in market
share and you don't care whether you are flying with #3 as opposed to
#1. As long as there is a good safety record, it is low in cost, and it
gets you there. If you rent a car, you don't care whether you are
renting with the market leader. In fact, Avis has been "#2" for many
years and has survived just fine. And I'd be willing to bet that outside
of business use, you wouldn't rent with Hertz or Avis anyway ... you'd
end up with a lower cost company like Alamo ... as long as the price is
right. What position in the rental market do you think Alamo is? When
was the last time you found out who the market share leader was before
buying a coffeemaker?

Larry E.

Joel Garry wrote:[color=blue]
> Larry wrote:
>[color=green]
>>I duuno ... don't see any signs that IBM is losing significant market
>>share. Look at other examples in various industries ... for many
>>products, there are usually at least 2 or 3 or 4 main survivors who end
>>up there for the long-term. You don't even have to be the market share
>>leader ... just have a significant presence. Hertz/Avis,
>>American/United/Delta, Krups/Braun/Cuisinart, pick your example.[/color]
>
>
> Man, you know how to pick some bad examples. Hertz/Avis bought by auto
> manufacturers to dump unwanted cars, declining market share due to
> Enterprise et al,
> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...01/ai_n8624267
> in as bad shape as airlines. American/United/Delta - do you not read
> the papers? "These days no one can make money on the goddamn airline
> business. The economics represent sheer hell." - C. R. Smith,
> President of American Airlines. "A recession is when you have to
> tighten your belt; depression is when you have no belt to tighten. When
> you've lost your trousers - you're in the airline business." - Sir
> Adam Thomson "This is a nasty, rotten business." - Robert L.
> Crandall, CEO & President of American Airlines. "Today, the situation
> is exacerbated with costs exceeding revenues at four times the
> pre-September 11 rate. Today, we are literally hemorrhaging money.
> Clearly this bleeding has to be stopped - and soon - or United will
> perish sometime next year." - James Goodwin, chairman and CEO of
> United's parent company UAL. The unions of the (at the time) employee
> owned company forced his replacement. 17 October, 2001 "I didn't take
> this job to preside over a bankruptcy. I refuse to accept that United
> Airlines is collateral damage from Sept. 11." - Jack Creighton, new
> chairman and CEO of UAL Corporation, 28 October 2001. UAL entered
> bankruptcy on 9 December 2002. "You fucking academic eggheads! You
> don't know shit. You can't deregulate this industry. You're going to
> wreck it. You don't know a goddamn thing!" - Robert L. Crandall, CEO
> American Airlines, addressing a Senate lawyer prior to airline
> deregulation, 1977. "Deregulati on will be the greatest thing to happen
> to the airlines since the jet engine." - Richard Ferris, CEO United
> Airlines, 1976. "If we went into the funeral business, people would
> stop dying." - Martin R. Shugrue, Vice-chairman Pan Am. "I can't
> imagine a set of circumstances that would produce Chapter 11 for
> Eastern." - Frank Lorenzo "As a businessman, Frank Lorenzo gives
> capitalism a bad name." - William F. Buckley "If you would look up
> bad labor relations in the dictionary, you would have an American
> Airlines logo beside it." - U.S. District Judge Joe Kendall, issuing
> a restraining order against an American Airlines APA pilot union sick
> out, 10 Feb 1999. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8703311/ Delta about to
> croak... Don't know anything about the Germans besides
> http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/1/6/...11662-h.htm#17 and
> Braun makes a lot of money with shaver cleaning device refills.
>
> jg
> --
> @home.com is bogus.
> http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jono...formation.html
>[/color]

[Bob Jones]

Re: Excellent future for DB2

>>>the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing
>>>great technology but may loose the market.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals
>>>serious and start doing something about it.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>
>> I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software
>> surely does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more
>> services and supports are needed.
>>
>> IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is
>> no longer a great technology by today's standard.[/color]
> You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
> 'By todays standard' must be 'by your standard'
> DB2 ranks #1 in many places. So where is your #3 coming from?
> Which ranking?
> Reading your post, I quess one cannot be any more vague than you are.
>[/color]

Let me be more clear, not just by todays standard, even by 90's standard,
Mainframe is dated. This is a well-known fact, not just my opinion.

DB2 is #3 in terms of ease-of-use, behind Oracle and SQL Server. Now that's
just my own experience. If you have read previous comments carefully, it is
really not that vague.

[Anton Versteeg]

Re: Excellent future for DB2

Bob Jones wrote:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning
>>>>that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing
>>>>great technology but may loose the market.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals
>>>>serious and start doing something about it.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software
>>>surely does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more
>>>services and supports are needed.
>>>
>>> IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is
>>>no longer a great technology by today's standard.[/color]
>>
>>You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
>>'By todays standard' must be 'by your standard'
>>DB2 ranks #1 in many places. So where is your #3 coming from?
>>Which ranking?
>>Reading your post, I quess one cannot be any more vague than you are.
>>[/color]
>
>
> Let me be more clear, not just by todays standard, even by 90's standard,
> Mainframe is dated. This is a well-known fact, not just my opinion.[/color]

A well known fact? Based on what? So how come customers are still
investing on this 'dated' platform.[color=blue]
>
> DB2 is #3 in terms of ease-of-use, behind Oracle and SQL Server. Now that's
> just my own experience. If you have read previous comments carefully, it is
> really not that vague.[/color]

Ah, finally *facts* change into *opinions*
I have used both Oracle and DB2 and I find DB2 a lot easier to use.
Ok, I'll be fair , I have used DB2 a lot longer.[color=blue]
>
>[/color]


--
Anton Versteeg
IBM Netherlands