new programmer

[Markus Pitha]

Re: new programmer

Hello,

Richard G. Riley schrieb:[color=blue]
> I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
> essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
> not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
> "advice".[/color]

I'm no native speaker too, but I think the try of writing half-decent
English is the least one can do, if one wants to get satisfactory
answers from the poeple in here or in other newsgroups.


Markus.

[Richard G. Riley]

Re: new programmer

On 2006-02-20, Markus Pitha <markus@pithax. net> wrote:[color=blue]
> Hello,
>
> Richard G. Riley schrieb:[color=green]
>> I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
>> essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
>> not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
>> "advice".[/color]
>
> I'm no native speaker too, but I think the try of writing half-decent
> English is the least one can do, if one wants to get satisfactory
> answers from the poeple in here or in other newsgroups.
>
>
> Markus.[/color]

No one said anything else.

I was merely pointing out that decent English is not the raison-detre
for this group or the people who are supposedly here to help.

If someones grammar and writing style is not your style then fine :
maybe others can, and do, put up with it and help.

This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
of common abbreviations in a C Language group.

BTW, it's "trying to write" not "the try of writing" .. :)



--
Remove evomer to reply

[Al Balmer]

Re: new programmer

On 20 Feb 2006 16:22:18 GMT, "Richard G. Riley"
<rgrileyevomer@ gmail.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
>anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
>of common abbreviations in a C Language group.[/color]

The practices in question are not "common abbreviations", unless you
are one of the group of prepubescents who live and breathe IM and chat
rooms. Are you?

--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ

[Keith Thompson]

Re: new programmer

"Richard G. Riley" <rgrileyevomer@ gmail.com> writes:[color=blue]
> On 2006-02-20, Markus Pitha <markus@pithax. net> wrote:[color=green]
>> Richard G. Riley schrieb:[color=darkred]
>>> I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
>>> essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
>>> not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
>>> "advice".[/color]
>>
>> I'm no native speaker too, but I think the try of writing half-decent
>> English is the least one can do, if one wants to get satisfactory
>> answers from the poeple in here or in other newsgroups.[/color]
>
> No one said anything else.
>
> I was merely pointing out that decent English is not the raison-detre
> for this group or the people who are supposedly here to help.
>
> If someones grammar and writing style is not your style then fine :
> maybe others can, and do, put up with it and help.
>
> This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
> anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
> of common abbreviations in a C Language group.
>
> BTW, it's "trying to write" not "the try of writing" .. :)[/color]

Writing "the try of writing" vs. "trying to write" is exactly the kind
of minor error we usually ignore (or at most gently point out) as long
as the meaning is clear enough. The kind of thing we complain about
is specifically the silly little abbreviations that seem to be common
for SMS (short text messages), like "u" and "ur" for "you" and "your",
respectively, along with failure to use capital letters, long strings
of exclamation points, lack of spaces after '.', etc.

I don't believe people use these abbreviations out of ignorance of the
correct words. I think they're perfectly aware that the correct words
are "you" and "your" (or maybe "you're", another minor error that's
generally ignored); they just carry over what might be useful
abbreviations in some contexts and use them here, where they're
insignificantly easier to write and much more difficult to read.

Nobody here insists on perfect English (though it's nice for those who
can manage it). We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
write clearly.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.

[Richard G. Riley]

Re: new programmer

On 2006-02-20, Al Balmer <albalmer@att.n et> wrote:[color=blue]
> On 20 Feb 2006 16:22:18 GMT, "Richard G. Riley"
><rgrileyevomer @gmail.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
>>anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
>>of common abbreviations in a C Language group.[/color]
>
> The practices in question are not "common abbreviations", unless you
> are one of the group of prepubescents who live and breathe IM and chat
> rooms. Are you?
>[/color]

I would assume from my "fully compliant" writing style that you could
guess I am not.

Others are. You dont like it? Ignore. I, however, will reply to who I
please when I please and will make my own judgements on what I deem
suitable communications style from international posters.

Now run along and go bully someone else please.

--
Remove evomer to reply

[Richard G. Riley]

Re: new programmer

On 2006-02-20, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:[color=blue]
> "Richard G. Riley" <rgrileyevomer@ gmail.com> writes:[color=green]
>> On 2006-02-20, Markus Pitha <markus@pithax. net> wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> Richard G. Riley schrieb:
>>>> I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
>>>> essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
>>>> not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
>>>> "advice".
>>>
>>> I'm no native speaker too, but I think the try of writing half-decent
>>> English is the least one can do, if one wants to get satisfactory
>>> answers from the poeple in here or in other newsgroups.[/color]
>>
>> No one said anything else.
>>
>> I was merely pointing out that decent English is not the raison-detre
>> for this group or the people who are supposedly here to help.
>>
>> If someones grammar and writing style is not your style then fine :
>> maybe others can, and do, put up with it and help.
>>
>> This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
>> anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
>> of common abbreviations in a C Language group.
>>
>> BTW, it's "trying to write" not "the try of writing" .. :)[/color]
>
> Writing "the try of writing" vs. "trying to write" is exactly the kind
> of minor error we usually ignore (or at most gently point out) as long
> as the meaning is clear enough. The kind of thing we complain about
> is specifically the silly little abbreviations that seem to be common
> for SMS (short text messages), like "u" and "ur" for "you" and "your",
> respectively, along with failure to use capital letters, long strings
> of exclamation points, lack of spaces after '.', etc.
>
> I don't believe people use these abbreviations out of ignorance of the
> correct words. I think they're perfectly aware that the correct words
> are "you" and "your" (or maybe "you're", another minor error that's
> generally ignored); they just carry over what might be useful
> abbreviations in some contexts and use them here, where they're
> insignificantly easier to write and much more difficult to read.
>
> Nobody here insists on perfect English (though it's nice for those who
> can manage it). We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
> write clearly.
>[/color]

Keith, you appear to be missing a vital point here. I simply dont care
: if someone has a question and I can answer it I will. It is not my
style or need to lecture them on their posting "English".

And in no way do I disagree with gently asking someone who posts
gibberish to try to make themselves a little clearer.

I do support your requests for clear, contextual
content. Abbreviations and capitalizatins are not, however, top of my
hit lists in a programming newsgroup.

We will have to agree to disagree I guess.



--
Remove evomer to reply

[Al Balmer]

Re: new programmer

On 21 Feb 2006 15:06:14 GMT, "Richard G. Riley"
<rgrileyevomer@ gmail.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>On 2006-02-20, Al Balmer <albalmer@att.n et> wrote:[color=green]
>> On 20 Feb 2006 16:22:18 GMT, "Richard G. Riley"
>><rgrileyevome r@gmail.com> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
>>>anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
>>>of common abbreviations in a C Language group.[/color]
>>
>> The practices in question are not "common abbreviations", unless you
>> are one of the group of prepubescents who live and breathe IM and chat
>> rooms. Are you?
>>[/color]
>
>I would assume from my "fully compliant" writing style that you could
>guess I am not.
>
>Others are. You dont like it? Ignore. I, however, will reply to who I
>please when I please and will make my own judgements on what I deem
>suitable communications style from international posters.
>
>Now run along and go bully someone else please.[/color]

Bye, now.

--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ

[pete]

Re: new programmer

Richard G. Riley wrote:[color=blue]
>
> On 2006-02-20, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:[color=green]
> >
> > We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
> > write clearly.
> >[/color]
>
> Keith, you appear to be missing a vital point here. I simply dont care
> : if someone has a question and I can answer it I will. It is not my
> style or need to lecture them on their posting "English".
>
> And in no way do I disagree with gently asking someone who posts
> gibberish to try to make themselves a little clearer.
>
> I do support your requests for clear, contextual
> content. Abbreviations and capitalizatins are not, however, top of my
> hit lists in a programming newsgroup.[/color]

Most of us make a sincere effort
to express ourselves as clearly as possible, so,
anyone not making a sincere effort to be clear,
is somewhat insulting.

--
pete

[Richard G. Riley]

Re: new programmer

On 2006-02-21, pete <pfiland@mindsp ring.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> Richard G. Riley wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> On 2006-02-20, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:[color=darkred]
>> >
>> > We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
>> > write clearly.
>> >[/color]
>>
>> Keith, you appear to be missing a vital point here. I simply dont care
>> : if someone has a question and I can answer it I will. It is not my
>> style or need to lecture them on their posting "English".
>>
>> And in no way do I disagree with gently asking someone who posts
>> gibberish to try to make themselves a little clearer.
>>
>> I do support your requests for clear, contextual
>> content. Abbreviations and capitalizatins are not, however, top of my
>> hit lists in a programming newsgroup.[/color]
>
> Most of us make a sincere effort
> to express ourselves as clearly as possible, so,
> anyone not making a sincere effort to be clear,
> is somewhat insulting.
>[/color]

Then dont help them. Frankly I dont find your overly short lines
insulting, so why would you find common 'net abreviations so? Anyway
this has been done to death. You, I and everyone else are entitled to
their own opinions and if you want to ignore someone becuase of a
percieved "laziness" in communication styles then go ahead.

--
Remove evomer to reply

[Keith Thompson]

Re: new programmer

"Richard G. Riley" <rgrileyevomer@ gmail.com> writes:[color=blue]
> On 2006-02-20, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:[/color]
[...][color=blue][color=green]
>> Nobody here insists on perfect English (though it's nice for those who
>> can manage it). We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
>> write clearly.
>>[/color]
>
> Keith, you appear to be missing a vital point here.[/color]

No, I don't believe that I am.
[color=blue]
> I simply dont care
> : if someone has a question and I can answer it I will.[/color]

I don't care whether you care or not. I do care. If you don't like
that, *you* can ignore *me*.
[color=blue]
> It is not my
> style or need to lecture them on their posting "English".[/color]

I choose to try to help people make themselves understood.
[color=blue]
> And in no way do I disagree with gently asking someone who posts
> gibberish to try to make themselves a little clearer.[/color]

Great. So what's the problem?
[color=blue]
> I do support your requests for clear, contextual
> content. Abbreviations and capitalizatins are not, however, top of my
> hit lists in a programming newsgroup.
>
> We will have to agree to disagree I guess.[/color]

Whatever.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.

[Richard G. Riley]

Re: new programmer

On 2006-02-21, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:[color=blue]
> "Richard G. Riley" <rgrileyevomer@ gmail.com> writes:[color=green]
>> On 2006-02-20, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:[/color]
> [...][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Nobody here insists on perfect English (though it's nice for those who
>>> can manage it). We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
>>> write clearly.
>>>[/color]
>>
>> Keith, you appear to be missing a vital point here.[/color]
>
> No, I don't believe that I am.
>[/color]

No, really. You are. Admittedly I have no standards to fall back to
verify it though.


[color=blue][color=green]
>> I simply dont care
>> : if someone has a question and I can answer it I will.[/color]
>
> I don't care whether you care or not. I do care. If you don't like
> that, *you* can ignore *me*.
>[color=green]
>> It is not my
>> style or need to lecture them on their posting "English".[/color]
>
> I choose to try to help people make themselves understood.
>[/color]

By telling them to go away and learn better English? Sure. Whatever.

[color=blue][color=green]
>> And in no way do I disagree with gently asking someone who posts
>> gibberish to try to make themselves a little clearer.[/color]
>
> Great. So what's the problem?
>[/color]

You don't see the difference do you?
[color=blue][color=green]
>> I do support your requests for clear, contextual
>> content. Abbreviations and capitalizatins are not, however, top of my
>> hit lists in a programming newsgroup.
>>
>> We will have to agree to disagree I guess.[/color]
>
> Whatever.
>[/color]

Clearly you do not agree to disagree. So no "whatever" really.

--
Remove evomer to reply

[Richard Bos]

Re: new programmer

"Richard G. Riley" <rgrileyevomer@ gmail.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> On 2006-02-19, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:[color=green]
> > effort deciphering silly abbreviations; making some effort to write in
> > standard English is both common courtesy and good sense. At the
> > very[/color]
>
> If English is your first language.[/color]

As someone whose first language is not English, I'd like to insert a
hearty "bollocks!" here.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > least, if I'm going to be reading someone's code, I want to be able to
> > read both the code and the comments.[/color]
>
> And I would hope you would give some leeway to someone whose first
> language is not English.[/color]

I do - for normal spelling mistakes. Not for SMS abbreviations and
junior high punctuation. Not using any capitals is _not_ a mistake, it's
a lack of effort.

Richard

[Gerard Flanagan]

Re: new programmer

A. Sinan Unur wrote:[color=blue]
> "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@so rry.bitbucket.c mm> wrote in
> news:dtavul$cic $1@news1.greatn owhere.com:
>[color=green]
> >
> > "A. Sinan Unur" <1usa@llenroc.u de.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:Xns976FB90 D6FED7asu1corne lledu@127.0.0.1 ...[/color]
> ...[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> u shd rd mre if ur bks!
> >>[/color]
> >
> > "You should read more if [sic,of] you're books."[/color]
>
> "your books". ;-)
>[/color]

[...]
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> No, his problem was with the intentionally cryptic SMS/IM style
> >> communication which indeed makes it much harder for me to understand
> >> exactly what the poster is talking about.[/color]
> >
> > English is a dynamic language. It does change. SMS/IM is driving a
> > change right now...[/color]
>
> Of course, all languages change all the time. However, judging from the
> posts in this group, I am happy to say that the move towards SMS/IM
> spelling has not completely overpowered other forms.
>
> Sinan
>
> --
> A. Sinan Unur <1usa@llenroc.u de.invalid>
> (reverse each component and remove .invalid for email address)[/color]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/4663990.stm

Gerard

[Richard G. Riley]

Re: new programmer

On 2006-02-22, Richard Bos <rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote:[color=blue]
> "Richard G. Riley" <rgrileyevomer@ gmail.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> On 2006-02-19, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:[color=darkred]
>> > effort deciphering silly abbreviations; making some effort to write in
>> > standard English is both common courtesy and good sense. At the
>> > very[/color]
>>
>> If English is your first language.[/color]
>
> As someone whose first language is not English, I'd like to insert a
> hearty "bollocks!" here.
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > least, if I'm going to be reading someone's code, I want to be able to
>> > read both the code and the comments.[/color]
>>
>> And I would hope you would give some leeway to someone whose first
>> language is not English.[/color]
>
> I do - for normal spelling mistakes. Not for SMS abbreviations and
> junior high punctuation. Not using any capitals is _not_ a mistake, it's
> a lack of effort.
>
> Richard[/color]

The don't answer them. My point is that I dont care. And I will help
if I can regardless of their grammatical faux pas.




--
Remove evomer to reply

[Mark McIntyre]

Re: new programmer

On 19 Feb 2006 22:21:42 GMT, in comp.lang.c , "Richard G. Riley"
<rgrileyevomer@ gmail.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>If English is your first language.[/color]

Take a quick look: this is an international newsgroup. Usenet
nettiquette requires English to be used.
[color=blue]
>And I would hope you would give some leeway to someone whose first
>language is not English.[/color]

Sure, but if i can't understand it then I'll ask them to rewrite it.
[color=blue]
>Maybe you are too important and dont have
>enough time to decipher "missing capitals" : I dont know.[/color]

I'm not the one you need to worry about. Its the contract maintenance
droid in ten years time, who can't speak to the original programmer
and has to rely on unintelligible comments written in a long-dead
variant of l33t.
Mark McIntyre
--
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan

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