Help with research

[elena]

Re: OT:Re: Help with research

I received similar feedback from others on the "uncertain" option.
Actually, the survey is a well-known instrument (not my own) introduced
in the early nineties. I'll be giving feedback to its developers.

On self-selection, this problem varies depending on the theory being
studied. A cognitive attribute, such as learning style, indicates a
smaller self-selection affect. Also, self-selection will make results
less generalizable. But that is not a concern here because I'm
comparing software developers from 2 cultures.

BTW, I did ask permission on the comp.lang.java. programmers group and
got one response that basically said it was fine to ask for
participants, as long as discussion did not occur there. I had expected
more feedback on the level of intrusiveness, but didn't get any. So I
figured I would just give it go and see what happened. I apologize if
this was too far off-topic.

Elena

[osmium]

Re: OT:Re: Help with research

"Alan Balmer" writes:[color=blue][color=green]
>>I think this kind of sampling is done all the time and the results are
>>certainly readable, but I don't know what anyone can actually *do* with
>>such
>>results. Perhaps one could refine the questions for a real survey to be
>>made later.[/color]
>
> Define "real survey." Not being sarcastic, I just don't know what
> constitutes a useful survey, or how you prove it.[/color]

I think a real survey is possible, but one can't prove it as a mathematical
proof. But you can prove to the standards of a civil trial in the USA.

Consider this hypothetical:

Q:"Have you or members of your immediate family ever rented a video tape?"

A:
yes 85%
no 11%
no response 4%.

If this is done right you can conclude that somewhere around 80% or so of
the non-institutionaliz ed adults under 80 years old have indeed rented a
video tape.

It is hard to imagine a reason to lie to such a survey, although it will
still happen. Questions on politics, sexuality, honesty and such-like would
be much harder to judge.

Note also that the respondent can almost surely understand the question and
come up with a non-fudged answer if he wishes. It's not some fuzzy thing
like "Are you a member of the middle class?"

[Chris Croughton]

Re: OT:Re: Help with research

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:56:55 -0700, Alan Balmer
<albalmer@att.n et> wrote:
[color=blue]
> A comment on the questions - The choices given are true, false, and
> uncertain. Uncertain is not a good choice, and I answered as if it
> meant "sometimes. "[/color]

I assumed that as well.
[color=blue]
> Incidentally, you contribute to the self-selection problem by
> selecting those who are (1) willing to give you an email address or
> (2) willing to give you a false email address.[/color]

I just left it blank, it didn't seem to complain...

Chris C

[Walter Roberson]

Re: OT:Re: Help with research

In article <37hno0F5cjo30U 1@individual.ne t>,
osmium <r124c4u102@com cast.net> wrote:
:Consider this hypothetical:
:Q:"Have you or members of your immediate family ever rented a video tape?"
:A:
:yes 85%
:no 11%
:no response 4%.

:If this is done right you can conclude that somewhere around 80% or so of
:the non-institutionaliz ed adults under 80 years old have indeed rented a
:video tape.

But it isn't done right -- instead, the question gets asked at
video rental stores and in movie-related newsgroups. With self-
selection, you seldom reach the non-affluent or minorities.
People who spend a lot of time in comp.lang.c are those with
leisure time, which implies at least moderately well off; their
opinions and cognative styles could be quite different from the
person who is a business programmer by day and a movie usher by night
to make ends meet.
--
Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston pie.
A bird can't whistle and neither can I. -- Pooh

[Mark McIntyre]

Re: OT:Re: Help with research

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:27:21 -0800, in comp.lang.c , "osmium"
<r124c4u102@com cast.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
>"Mark McIntyre" Writes:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>Walter is absolutely right. Without a properly selected and controlled
>>>survey group, the results are meaningless.[/color]
>>
>> Not necessarily - a randomish sample also has meaning, provided you
>> understand and document the nature of its randomness. Whats at least as
>> important is the questions asked and how they're phrased.[/color]
>
>How about providing an example of a self selected sample where the results
>are useful?[/color]

Heck, even the percentage that self-select is itself useful info.
[color=blue]
>As opposed to, interesting, say. Of course the questions are
>important. Why bring that up??[/color]

Because as any fule no, the 'right' question can totally change the
results.


--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt >

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[Mark McIntyre]

Re: Help with research

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:33:48 +0000, in comp.lang.c , Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@s pamcop.net> wrote:

(the same thing, several blasted times)

sorry, news service fscking up again, sending back random "failed" messages
to my poor old newsreader.

--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt >

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[osmium]

Re: OT:Re: Help with research

"Walter Roberson" writes:
[color=blue]
> In article <37hno0F5cjo30U 1@individual.ne t>,
> osmium <r124c4u102@com cast.net> wrote:
> :Consider this hypothetical:
> :Q:"Have you or members of your immediate family ever rented a video
> tape?"
> :A:
> :yes 85%
> :no 11%
> :no response 4%.
>
> :If this is done right you can conclude that somewhere around 80% or so of
> :the non-institutionaliz ed adults under 80 years old have indeed rented a
> :video tape.
>
> But it isn't done right -- instead, the question gets asked at
> video rental stores and in movie-related newsgroups. With self-
> selection, you seldom reach the non-affluent or minorities.
> People who spend a lot of time in comp.lang.c are those with
> leisure time, which implies at least moderately well off; their
> opinions and cognative styles could be quite different from the
> person who is a business programmer by day and a movie usher by night
> to make ends meet.[/color]

I didn't want to spend the entire fucking afternoon detailing what "done
right" means. But it doesn't include pestering people in a video rental
store. Please try to read and understand the post I was responding to, not
the distorted, clipped version above where "this" has no contextual
meaning.. Focus on finding the word "real".

[CBFalconer]

Re: Help with research

Mark McIntyre wrote:[color=blue]
> <markmcintyre@s pamcop.net> wrote:
>
> (the same thing, several blasted times)
>
> sorry, news service fscking up again, sending back random
> "failed" messages to my poor old newsreader.[/color]

It's not as if it were the first time. Maybe you should consider
one or more of: new news service; new newsreader.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.c om, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson

[Eric Chan]

Re: Help with research

elena wrote:[color=blue]
> I'm a Java/C++ developer who is also studying psychology.
>
> I would really appreciate it if you would complete a survey that I'm
> using for a research project on programmers.
>
> It's easy [Yes/No answers] and takes about 5 minutes.
>
> I will be presenting the results at the American Psychological
> Association convention in August.
>
> The study link is:
>
> http://www.elena.com
>
> The survey measures "cognitive style" (analytical/intuitive) which
> describes how you process information and learn. The people I've
> pre-tested it with found it to be pretty interesting.
>
> I can go to my friends, however it occurred to me that it might be
> better to post in a newsgroup and get a larger, more diverse, and
> random sample.
>
> Thanks again for your time,
>
> Elena
>[/color]

Wondering why so many people start dicussing on this topic that is not
about C language (including me), which is obviously different from the
situation for topics asking about C++, java, assignments, etc.


Eric

[Mark McIntyre]

Re: Help with research

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:09:10 GMT, in comp.lang.c , CBFalconer
<cbfalconer@yah oo.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Maybe you should consider
>one or more of: new news service;[/color]

Who's paying? :-)
[color=blue]
>new newsreader.[/color]

Same question... :-)
--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt >

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[Mark McIntyre]

Re: OT:Re: Help with research

On 16 Feb 2005 23:00:02 GMT, in comp.lang.c , roberson@ibd.nr c-cnrc.gc.ca
(Walter Roberson) wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>But it isn't done right[/color]

Then theres no point discussing it is there?
[color=blue]
>With self-
>selection, you seldom reach the non-affluent or minorities.[/color]

Even if you do the survey in bars in minority areas and slum housing
estates?

Get real. Its merely a matter of designing the target audience properly.

--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt >

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[Walter Roberson]

Re: OT:Re: Help with research

In article <9pba119uoskm9p 1dkmu97fi3l9scc pk329@4ax.com>,
Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@s pamcop.net> wrote:
:On 16 Feb 2005 23:00:02 GMT, in comp.lang.c , roberson@ibd.nr c-cnrc.gc.ca
:(Walter Roberson) wrote:

:>But it isn't done right

:Then theres no point discussing it is there?

Mark, you must have made a typo in my email address when you
plonked me last week. You may wish to check in case you accidently
inserted a 't' in my last name.
--
Tenser, said the Tensor.
Tenser, said the Tensor.
Tension, apprehension,
And dissension have begun. -- Alfred Bester (tDM)

[Stephan Schulz]

Re: OT:Re: Help with research

In article <37i4v3F5f9o4kU 1@individual.ne t>, osmium wrote:[color=blue]
>"Walter Roberson" writes:
>[color=green]
>> In article <37hno0F5cjo30U 1@individual.ne t>,
>> osmium <r124c4u102@com cast.net> wrote:
>> :Consider this hypothetical:
>> :Q:"Have you or members of your immediate family ever rented a video
>> tape?"
>> :A:
>> :yes 85%
>> :no 11%
>> :no response 4%.
>>
>> :If this is done right you can conclude that somewhere around 80% or so of
>> :the non-institutionaliz ed adults under 80 years old have indeed rented a
>> :video tape.[/color][/color]

It is even more wrong - the question is imprecise, and the analysis is
massively flawed. You can deduce (maybe) that 80% or so of the
non-institutionaliz ed adults under 80 years old either have rented a
tape, or have a family member ("immediate" is bad as well, as it can
be interpreted arbitrarily) that has rented a tape. You are likely to
overestimate. I would have answered yes (my mother has rented tape, as
has my girl friend), but neither I nor my sister even own a VCR.

Bye,

Stephan
--
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