C to Java Byte Code

[Alfred Z. Newmane]

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Programmer Dude wrote:[color=blue]
> Thomas G. Marshall writes:
>[color=green]
>> 1. OE is enormously common.
>> 2. More and more OE folks are using OE_QuoteFix
>> 3. OE_QuoteFix does not regard {space}{reply marker}
>> as part of a reply.
>>
>> So you're going to be dedicatedly producing posts that are hard
>> to reply to for a rather large number of people.[/color]
>
> TS. There is a common sense among the cognoscenti that folks who
> use OE get exactly what they deserve.
>
> An even more common sense is that it's absurd to modify ones own
> behavior for arguably defective software used by others.[/color]

Why do I get the feeling you dislike OE more for being a Microsoft
product, than for any lack of any functionality?

I've been using OE, for yeas, OE_QuoteFix is the best thing since sliced
bread for OE. Even without it, OE wasn't /never/ a horrible news reader.
Granted, not the best, but it always got the job done.

As I've mentioned before, does some jobs better than other readers, like
being able to sort "watched" threads at the top, while at the /same
time/ be able to sort by *date*, not many news readers can do this.
Hell, few readers can even sort watched threads stay at top, let alone
also sort by date. and some readers don't even have a "watch thread"
capability.

No offense to you, Programmer Dude, but I feel as though you never
really tried OE (much), if you really had given it a chance, you may or
may not be as much against it as you are now.

It's up to the eye of the beholder, but people who use and like OE are
those who have actually given it a chance and learned to utilize it's
strengths, and minimize it's weaknesses (OE_QuoteFix.)

All in all, it's not so bad a reader as many people like to /say/ it is.

(If it's really missing something, it's the ability to send control
messages other than Cancel Message's.)

[Alfred Z. Newmane]

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Dik T. Winter wrote:[color=blue]
> In article <2ukitfF2b3abtU 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane"
> <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes: > Dik T. Winter wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > In article <wAPgd.512$fw2. 217@trndny01> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> > > <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes:[/color]
> > Dik > > T. Winter coughed up: ...[color=darkred]
> > > Refixing the bad quotes:[/color]
> >
> > Could you please not put any white space /before/ the quote[/color]
> character > ">"[/color]

[color=blue][color=green]
> > Putting white space, like:[color=darkred]
> > > quoted text with whitespace before the quote token.[/color]
> > interfears with quote level color-coders and "quoted text wrap[/color]
> fixers."
>
> But it makes quotations clearer for those not using quote level
> color-codes.[/color]

Yes, but in helping some, you are making it harder for many others, why
is this so hard to understand?

I also have to disagree that you are helping all the non color coded
readers, in that after a few or so quote levels your text gets horribly
mis wrapped because of that extra space, so it, in fact, gets /harder/
to read in many cases. Even google groups captures this.

[Programmer Dude]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> I've been using the "paid-for" version of Agent for many months
>> now. It's okay, but it has a number of annoying things that have
>> over those months determined me to seek a better newsreader.[/color]
>
> Any suggestions then?[/color]

No yet. So far I'm only to the point of realizing I don't like
Agent very much.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> The text editor has some non-Windows weirdnesses I really dislike,
>> and the folders section is only one level deep--no subfolders.
>> (That last alone is almost enough to condemn it in my mind.)[/color]
>
> Agreed. If you are developing for a certain platform, you should take
> note of how things like controls (buttons, menus, checkboxes, etc) and
> arangements are commonly used in better programs.[/color]

And--as in the case of no sub-folders--the level and operation of
software in general. I mean, how lame do you have to be to fail
to recognize that, gee, sub-folders are pretty much a required
feature for organizing your email.
[color=blue]
> One of the biggest problems I've seen in cross platform applications is
> sticking to a certain model that works well on one platform but makes it
> harder to use on another.[/color]

Yep. Two words: Lotus Notes. In three decades I've never hated a
piece of so-called software more than I hate Lotus Notes.
[color=blue]
> One of my core programing models is this:
>
> "Keep things simple."[/color]

Yes! And after that, "Keep them usable." I play "user" as much as
I can with my own development (and on the hobby side I *am* the
user! :-)... When any feature starts to be a pain to use, it's time
to re-factor the UI.
[color=blue]
> Knowing how to create applications that are both simple /and/ powerful
> is a good trait to have in the programming world, but alas, bosses
> aren't always as keen :([/color]

We live in a world where business often adopts the attitude that
unhappy, pissed off customers are fine so long as they are so
unhappy and pissed off they go elsewhere. (And then there's
cable companies who have you by the short and curlies and clearly
could care less what you think.)
[color=blue][color=green]
>> It also suffers the unix disease of being to damn configurable.[/color]
>
> True, that can be a pain sometimes, although I realy like Linux :-)[/color]

Never used Linux, but I was a unix developer for years. Loved it.
Really loved it!

But I'm fine with Windows, too. MS makes some pretty cool software,
and unix really couldn't be a player in the world in which I work
right now.

Bottom line: I have no loyalties to any platform, hard or soft. I
just want stuff that does the job. Windows, unix (and many others)
do, and they're all fine with me! (-:

[Programmer Dude]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> TS. There is a common sense among the cognoscenti that folks who
>> use OE get exactly what they deserve.
>>
>> An even more common sense is that it's absurd to modify ones own
>> behavior for arguably defective software used by others.[/color]
>
> Why do I get the feeling you dislike OE more for being a Microsoft
> product, than for any lack of any functionality?[/color]

I don't know, since it's completely off the mark. I *like* MS
products quite a bit. I think they make some amazing stuff. OE
just isn't in that group (nor is VSS).
[color=blue]
> I've been using OE, for yeas, OE_QuoteFix is the best thing since
> sliced bread for OE.[/color]

I can't imagine using a second piece of software to fix the first.
When I asked Forte about the lack of sub-folders they told me there
was a third party product that provided that functionality.

NO THANKS!!
If your software can't do the job, I'll find some that can.
[color=blue]
> Even without it, OE wasn't /never/ a horrible news reader.
> Granted, not the best, but it always got the job done.[/color]

Among folks who know what they're doing, it's probably adequate.
But its defaults are dangerous and the way it deals with "file:"
is egregious.
[color=blue]
> No offense to you, Programmer Dude, but I feel as though you never
> really tried OE (much),...[/color]

You are correct.
[color=blue]
> ...if you really had given it a chance, you may or may not be as
> much against it as you are now.[/color]

[shrug] Could be, but if third party software is required to make
it truly useful, it'd be off my list.

HOWEVER, keep in mind that ALL I SAID was that OE is widely regarded
in poor favor as a software product. And note that I didn't make any
claims for or against OE.

The real substance of my point was that broken behavior of a piece
of softare is a poor reason to modify ones own actions.
[color=blue]
> It's up to the eye of the beholder, but people who use and like OE
> are those who have actually given it a chance and learned to
> utilize it's strengths, and minimize it's weaknesses (OE_QuoteFix.)[/color]

Or at least don't mind having to take extra effort to make it useable.
I *do* mind that. If it's not useable out of the box, it can stay IN
the box, AFAIC.
[color=blue]
> All in all, it's not so bad a reader as many people like to /say/
> it is.[/color]

"Not so bad" seems damning with faint praise.

<GODWIN>
Hitler supposedly liked dogs. Few things in life are ALL bad.
</GODWIN>

Here endith the thread. (-:

[Programmer Dude]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Crom writes:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Change is good. Variety is good.[/color]
>
> Even if it completely breaks existing established unwritten standards?[/color]

Heh. "Unwritten standard" is an oxymoron.

And, yes. Even so.
[color=blue]
> This isn't soem dictatorship telling you what to wear or who to vote
> for, or whatever, it's about news readers and something that wasnt'
> broken being fixed by morons. So for crying out loud, get off this
> stupid loony fringe of yours and join reality please.[/color]

Question: With such kind words, how can I deny such a request?
Answer: Pretty easily.

[Alfred Z. Newmane]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Programmer Dude wrote:[color=blue]
> Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> TS. There is a common sense among the cognoscenti that folks who
>>> use OE get exactly what they deserve.
>>>
>>> An even more common sense is that it's absurd to modify ones own
>>> behavior for arguably defective software used by others.[/color]
>>
>> Why do I get the feeling you dislike OE more for being a Microsoft
>> product, than for any lack of any functionality?[/color]
>
> I don't know, since it's completely off the mark. I *like* MS
> products quite a bit. I think they make some amazing stuff. OE
> just isn't in that group (nor is VSS).[/color]

I aplogies then. I also conceeded your point about security elsethread.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> I've been using OE, for yeas, OE_QuoteFix is the best thing since
>> sliced bread for OE.[/color]
>
> I can't imagine using a second piece of software to fix the first.
> When I asked Forte about the lack of sub-folders they told me there
> was a third party product that provided that functionality.[/color]

Thats why I asked before if someone news of a good replacement that good
do color coding, sort-by-thread-watching-AND-date.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> Even without it, OE wasn't /never/ a horrible news reader.
>> Granted, not the best, but it always got the job done.[/color]
>
> Among folks who know what they're doing, it's probably adequate.
> But its defaults are dangerous and the way it deals with "file:"
> is egregious.[/color]

Very true.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> No offense to you, Programmer Dude, but I feel as though you never
>> really tried OE (much),...[/color]
>
> You are correct.
>[color=green]
>> ...if you really had given it a chance, you may or may not be as
>> much against it as you are now.[/color]
>
> [shrug] Could be, but if third party software is required to make
> it truly useful, it'd be off my list.
>[/color]
I have to agree with you here too, if you know of a godo replacement,
I'm all ears (and eyes :-)
[color=blue]
> HOWEVER, keep in mind that ALL I SAID was that OE is widely regarded
> in poor favor as a software product. And note that I didn't make any
> claims for or against OE.[/color]

True, I may have jumped the gun a little.
[color=blue]
> The real substance of my point was that broken behavior of a piece
> of softare is a poor reason to modify ones own actions.[/color]

True, but some people had made the point that it isn't just OE that
parses quotes i nthat way.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> It's up to the eye of the beholder, but people who use and like OE
>> are those who have actually given it a chance and learned to
>> utilize it's strengths, and minimize it's weaknesses (OE_QuoteFix.)[/color]
>
> Or at least don't mind having to take extra effort to make it useable.
> I *do* mind that. If it's not useable out of the box, it can stay IN
> the box, AFAIC.[/color]

True, that usually constitutes a defective product.

[Alfred Z. Newmane]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Programmer Dude wrote:[color=blue]
> Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> I've been using the "paid-for" version of Agent for many months
>>> now. It's okay, but it has a number of annoying things that have
>>> over those months determined me to seek a better newsreader.[/color]
>>
>> Any suggestions then?[/color]
>
> No yet. So far I'm only to the point of realizing I don't like
> Agent very much.[/color]

Well please feel free to share any solutions you may find. Hell, maybe
one of these days, if I actually get enoug htime, I'll write one!, lol
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> The text editor has some non-Windows weirdnesses I really dislike,
>>> and the folders section is only one level deep--no subfolders.
>>> (That last alone is almost enough to condemn it in my mind.)[/color]
>>
>> Agreed. If you are developing for a certain platform, you should take
>> note of how things like controls (buttons, menus, checkboxes, etc)
>> and arangements are commonly used in better programs.[/color]
>
> And--as in the case of no sub-folders--the level and operation of
> software in general. I mean, how lame do you have to be to fail
> to recognize that, gee, sub-folders are pretty much a required
> feature for organizing your email.[/color]

Bingo. It's one of those vastly accepted norms that people continue to
request from such applications. It's a shame when some don't listen.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> One of the biggest problems I've seen in cross platform applications
>> is sticking to a certain model that works well on one platform but
>> makes it harder to use on another.[/color]
>
> Yep. Two words: Lotus Notes. In three decades I've never hated a
> piece of so-called software more than I hate Lotus Notes.[/color]

(GAG!!!) Just the thought brings back so many horrible semi-supressed
memories!
[color=blue][color=green]
>> One of my core programing models is this:
>>
>> "Keep things simple."[/color]
>
> Yes! And after that, "Keep them usable." I play "user" as much as
> I can with my own development (and on the hobby side I *am* the
> user! :-)... When any feature starts to be a pain to use, it's time
> to re-factor the UI.[/color]

Somethings else we seem to share in common then :-)
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Knowing how to create applications that are both simple /and/
>> powerful is a good trait to have in the programming world, but alas,
>> bosses aren't always as keen :([/color]
>
> We live in a world where business often adopts the attitude that
> unhappy, pissed off customers are fine so long as they are so
> unhappy and pissed off they go elsewhere.[/color]

Sad but true.
[color=blue]
> (And then there's cable companies who have you by the short and
> curlies and clearly could care less what you think.)[/color]

Thats why I switched to sat-tv a couple years ago :-)
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> It also suffers the unix disease of being to damn configurable.[/color]
>>
>> True, that can be a pain sometimes, although I realy like Linux :-)[/color]
>
> Never used Linux, but I was a unix developer for years. Loved it.
> Really loved it![/color]

Have always loved it for what it was as well. It's a very robust and
stable platform (most of the time) IMHO. trouble is a lot of users,
especially those who were brought up /only/ knowing Windows usually get
scared away at the site of a Unix/Linux console.
[color=blue]
> But I'm fine with Windows, too. MS makes some pretty cool software,
> and unix really couldn't be a player in the world in which I work
> right now.
>
> Bottom line: I have no loyalties to any platform, hard or soft. I
> just want stuff that does the job. Windows, unix (and many others)
> do, and they're all fine with me! (-:[/color]

Seems we actually have more in common then first meets the eye (or how
ever the saying goes.)

I do most of my dev on windows, and have always been doing unix/linux
dev more for learning/hobbie sake. I also continue ot experiment in the
Win32 realm as well ,always learning some new trick with the WinAPI and
such. :-) I personally love Borland C++ Builder 5. VS.Net has some
merits too, and I'm realatively new to it, but have picked up quite a
bit of the various aspects. I still however prefer BCB for my general
GUI needs.

Though I'm always willing to try new things.

[Programmer Dude]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> I can't imagine using a second piece of software to fix the first.
>> When I asked Forte about the lack of sub-folders they told me there
>> was a third party product that provided that functionality.[/color]
>
> Thats why I asked before if someone news of a good replacement that
> good do color coding, sort-by-thread-watching-AND-date.[/color]

Agent--if the little things that annoy me don't annoy you so much--
isn't horrible (yes, I AM damning with faint praise, but you may
not object to its faults as much as I do). It does color code quotes
(one level--colored or not colored) and it does allow some tailoring
of what you see in a group (has watched posts, kept posts).....

No, I take it back. Agent's crap.

Consider this: in the editor, it word wraps what I type just fine,
but completely ignores quoted material. Therefore, I have to
manually re-wrap quotes to fit my line length.

Or, if you double-click a word and then attempt to drag-highlight
other words.... nothing happens. Only the double-clicked word
remains highlighted (what idiot thought of that?!?!).

Or, it's sort of a quasi-MDI application (multiple windows in a big
window), but its behavior is annoyingly non-standard. The part I
hate most is that the "main" window is a three pane deal with your
list of groups, list of articles and current article. But I want
articles in their own window, thank you, AND I want to be able to
have multiple article windows open. But all this piece of crap
will give you is one article window. You can open a second "main"
window, but who needs that?

Or, the only reasonable way to use it (due the three-pane mistake)
is with the main window maxed. Which means getting at any other
window (your outbox, for e.g.) requires going to the Window menu
and opening it there.

And why is my outbox NOT listed with my Inbox and other folders?
Since you have to explicitly go open your outbox, it was weeks before
I noticed that I had a couple messages that never made it out (due
to Agent's "send" command being ^N (send Now)...I just can't get
used to that. ^N is almost universally New.

Or how about the fact that the folder list only provides a count of
UNREAD articles. Not the total in the folder (a far more useful
number to me, although I prefer both).

It's also braindead in its handling of column widths.

I mean, what kind of bad weed were these jokers smoking? They
might be decent programmers in some fashion, but they ain't much
in the user interface design area.

No, don't buy Agent. You'd only come to regret it.
[color=blue]
> I have to agree with you here too, if you know of a godo replacement,
> I'm all ears (and eyes :-)[/color]

[sigh] I really liked Netscape 3. Simple and fast. Stayed the
heck out of my way, and I like that in a piece of software (also
in other drivers :-). I learned to love Netscape 4.7 and would
have stayed with it, but my company only supports IE, so I lost
the ability to get through our corporate firewall.

I think the problem is often featureitus. The idea that an app
needs to have it all. The CuteFTP product *used*to*be* one of
the best FTP apps out there until they ruined it. Each new
"upgrade" made me like it less and less until--trying to jump
through the misbegotten registration hoops--I finally said, the
hell with it and dis-installed it permanently. (And they've
lost me as a customer forever.)

I've seen a number of really decent shareware apps go down that
road. Pity.
[color=blue]
> True, but some people had made the point that it isn't just
> OE that parses quotes i nthat way.[/color]

Understood. But you're "talking" to someone who doesn't even
mind top-posting (even prefer it in some circumstances--I tend
to skip posts when all I see on the first screenful is quotes).

HOW a post is formatted is trivial and way below my radar. [shrug]

Now what was it... oh, yeah,... post ^Now

[Al MacHonahey]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> wrote in message news:<hXthd.222 2$fw2.156@trndn y01>...[color=blue]
> Dik T. Winter coughed up:[color=green]
> > In article <2ul0kdF2aer25U 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane"
> > <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes: > Thomas G. Marshall
> > wrote: > > Dik T. Winter coughed up:[color=darkred]
> > > > > In article <Bltgd.6$304.0@ trndny06> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> > > > > <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes:[/color]
> > ... > > > > I don't see i=i++ as ever anything useful, but 45°
> > tangental to > > > this > original thread is something that bothers
> > me. There is a > > > *prevailing* > notion that:[color=darkred]
> > > > > > If it ain't standard C, it ain't C
> > > > > > which I think is not quite true.
> > >
> > > Mr Dik Winter, this is the result of white spae before the quote[/color]
> > token. > This serves as an exellent example of what can happen, and
> > why we are > asking you to fix this :-)
> >
> > My newsreader is a bit more intelligent. I have instructed it to
> > insert " > " before quotations. But if the quoted text already
> > starts with a
> > space it will only insert " >".[/color]
>
>
> Well, in any case, I've asked the creator of OE_QuoteFix about this issue.
> He'll contact me with /his/ take on it, probably soon.[/color]

In any case, Dik's usual (and arguebly broken) quoting IS a problem,
eventually wrapping get horrendous, forcing others to manually repair
it if any readablity is to be restored.

Dik, once and for all, PLEASE fix you QUOTES. over 90% of readers and
parsers will NOT parse " > ..." as a line of quoted text. "> ..." is
_UNIVERSAL_, meaning any parser should not trouble with it, so why
break this universally accepted paradigm? Seems rather absurd and
selfish.

[Al MacHonahey]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi .nl> wrote in message news:<I6H6sw.FI I@cwi.nl>...[color=blue]
> In article <hcbhd.842$o52. 240@trndny03> "Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes:
> ...[color=green]
> > Dik T. Winter, if it's ok with you, *please* change that. The *standard* is
> > to quote a line by placing a ">" at the very beginning of the line.[/color]
>
> What standard?[/color]

The the UseNet univerally accepted way of quoting; Quoting with ">
...." isntead of " > ..." will allow your text to be parsed by
virtually every parser/reader without a hitch. Your quoting, however,
does NOT get parsed as quoted text on a vast majority of
readers/parsers. Why break quoting like this? Please fix them.

[Al MacHonahey]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi .nl> wrote in message news:<I6H79E.H5 8@cwi.nl>...[color=blue]
> In article <2ul0kdF2aer25U 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:[color=green]
> > Thomas G. Marshall wrote:[color=darkred]
> > > Dik T. Winter coughed up:
> > > > In article <Bltgd.6$304.0@ trndny06> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> > > > <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes: ...
> > > > > I don't see i=i++ as ever anything useful, but 45° tangental to
> > > > this > original thread is something that bothers me. There is a
> > > > *prevailing* > notion that:
> > > > > If it ain't standard C, it ain't C
> > > > > which I think is not quite true.[/color]
> >
> > Mr Dik Winter, this is the result of white spae before the quote token.
> > This serves as an exellent example of what can happen, and why we are
> > asking you to fix this :-)[/color]
>
> My newsreader is a bit more intelligent. I have instructed it to insert
> " > " before quotations. But if the quoted text already starts with a
> space it will only insert " >".[/color]

Thats fine and dandy, sonny, but that ain't the problem. You don't
need the space BEFORE the >, "> ..." is the universal way of quoting
on UseNet. Your quotes don't get ~parsed~AS~QUOT ED~TEXT~ on most
parsers/readers. Please fix them. The uiversally accepted UseNet
quoting style is univerally accepted, and has bene for decades,
~FOR~VERY~GOOD~ REASONS~. UseNet would of gone to complete insane
quoting hell long ago if not for them.

[Al MacHonahey]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

floyd@barrow.co m (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in message news:<877jp6bb6 o.fld@barrow.co m>...[color=blue]
> "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi .nl> wrote:[color=green]
> >In article <2ul0ehF2aqbo1U 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:
> >[color=darkred]
> > > The point here, is that 99.9% of UseNet uses >, or |, or soem other
> > > quote character, /without/ and leading white space, and this is how most
> > > quote-level color-coding and broken-word-wrap fixers work, liek for what
> > > I described above, which only serve on the client end, to make the text
> > > mor readable.[/color]
> >
> >My point is that (with my non-colour coded newsreader) I find quotes
> >flushed to the left quite unreadable, and unseparable from the actual
> >new text.[/color]
>
> I had to look twice to even figure out what they were
> complaining about. Gnus does "quote-level color-coding", and it
> works just as expected... which is to say quite correctly with
> your articles as well as with others.[/color]

You must be horribly blidn then, sir. The entire point is Dik's
quoting break on many readers and parsers, ie: thye don't get parsed
as quotes on most readers/parsers.

There is nothing wrong with asking someone to follow a universal
UseNet standard thats been in place for decades, but some people wont
listen to any reason and think they are god..... sigh

[Al MacHonahey]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> wrote in message news:<2um0tqF2b 2t3iU1@uni-berlin.de>...[color=blue]
> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:[color=green]
> > Floyd L. Davidson coughed up:
> >
> > ...[rip]...
> >[color=darkred]
> >> The point you have *missed* is that 99.9% of all Usenet readers
> >> do the appropriate thing with what Dik T. Winters is posting.[/color]
> >
> > You've tried them all, have you?
> >
> > And that number isn't weighted by the number of folks actually using
> > them. I'm guessing that the number of folks using OE with OE_QuoteFix
> > is very large.
> >
> > And this is the first time I've ever seen this issue before, and I've
> > been in usenet for a long time. So Dik T. Winters' style post is
> > certainly not a common occurrence.[/color]
>
> And as I was trying to point out, it's not common for very good reasons.[/color]

That because, unlike Dik, other people have actually got a clue of
what and WHY some things are done on UseNet in the way they have been
for decades.

[Al MacHonahey]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi .nl> wrote in message news:<I6J5H3.60 s@cwi.nl>...[color=blue]
> In article <2uo19rF2dhgalU 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:
> ...[color=green]
> > Now this is /NOT/ what this is about. I have no problem with making
> > improvements any any existing thing, but making unnecissary changes to
> > something that has been vastly accepted for /good reason/, and not just
> > merely because it is an accepted norm. It's all for the sake for sane
> > news reading, not having to deal with malformed quoting and broken quote
> > casscades.[/color]
>
> Have you read what I wrote? I use this kind of quoting already about 17
> years. Once upon a time it was propagated for good reasons, and so I
> started with it in early 1987.[/color]

And people even then asked you to fix it. The onyl thing that was
propagated from that was you to people's killfiles.
[color=blue]
> So who is changing what? See:
> <http://groups.google.n l/groups?as_umsgi d=352%40zuring. mcvax.cwi.nl>
> and also see that Google has no problems with it; colour-coding is OK.[/color]

For the most part, no, but it causes google to treat non quoted text
that happens to start with whitespace and a ">". Seems broken to me.

Also, you were already killfiled by the time by some, after being
repeatedly asked to fix your damn quoting.
[color=blue]
> Google apparently knows a bit more about quoting than other systems.[/color]

And a lot more than you, apparently.
[color=blue]
> The apparent requirement that quotation marks should *not* be preceded
> by a space is an arbitrary change from previous practice.[/color]

No, it's been an accepted UneNet standard since almsot the beginning
of UseNet. Stop trying to find cheap and fact-twisting excuses.
[color=blue]
>(To be
> entirely correct, I changed it between 11 November 1986 and 25 April
> 1987.)[/color]

And this serves to show how long you've been utterly clueless, or
unwilling to reason.

[J. J. Farrell]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> wrote in message news:<2um124F2a 6nbmU1@uni-berlin.de>...[color=blue]
> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:[color=green]
> > "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi .nl> wrote in message
> > news:I6H6L9.EEM @cwi.nl...[color=darkred]
> >> In article <2ukitfF2b3abtU 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane"[/color][/color]
> <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> > Dik T. Winter wrote:
> >> > > In article <wAPgd.512$fw2. 217@trndny01> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> >> > > <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes:[/color][/color]
> Dik > > T. Winter coughed up: ...[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> > > Refixing the bad quotes:
> >> >
> >> > Could you please not put any white space /before/ the quote
> >> character > ">"
> >>
> >> You know. I do it on purpose. You are the third person complaining
> >> in the about 20 years I am posting on Usenet.[/color]
> >
> >
> > OE_QuoteFix didn't exist back that far.
> >
> > Well, let me put it a slightly different way:
> >
> > 1. OE is enormously common.
> > 2. More and more OE folks are using OE_QuoteFix
> > 3. OE_QuoteFix does not regard {space}{reply marker}
> > as part of a reply.
> >
> > So you're going to be dedicatedly producing posts that are hard to
> > reply to for a rather large number of people.[/color]
>
> And not just people using OE_QuoteFix, other readers as well. OEQF is
> just the tip of the ice burg. I've seen styles like Dik make things hard
> to read in google groups as well.[/color]

URL, please. Dik's style works fine in Google Groups in my experience,
and I agree it is more readable than the commoner style.