C to Java Byte Code

**Alfred Z. Newmane** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
[...][color=blue][color=green]
> > The point here, is that 99.9% of UseNet uses >, or |, or soem other[/color]
>
> The point you have *missed* is that 99.9% of all Usenet readers
> do the appropriate thing with what Dik T. Winters is posting.[/color]

I have to respectifully disagree. Most news readers that do some sort of
color coding and/or lien wrap fixing wont treat quoted text with leading
quotespace /before/ the quote char as quote, but as local text. Hence
the request I and others have made.

**Randy Howard** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Floyd,

Sorry for the NMI in the middle of this otherwise interesting
newsreader war, but what is the correct pronunciation of
"Ukpeagvik" ??

--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)

**Alfred Z. Newmane** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:[color=blue]
> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> wrote:[color=green]
>> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> Dik T. Winter coughed up:
>>>> In article <Bltgd.6$304.0@ trndny06> "Thomas G. Marshall"
>>>> <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes: ...
>>>> > I don't see i=i++ as ever anything useful, but 45° tangental to
>>>> this > original thread is something that bothers me. There is a
>>>> *prevailing* > notion that:
>>>> > If it ain't standard C, it ain't C
>>>> > which I think is not quite true.[/color]
>>
>> Mr Dik Winter, this is the result of white spae before the quote
>> token. This serves as an exellent example of what can happen, and
>> why we are asking you to fix this :-)[/color]
>
> I had my newsreader reformat Dik's article and it came out
> looking just fine (see below). If OE won't do that, get a
> better newsreader![/color]

I must onec again respectfully disagree; it has long been accepted on
UseNet to use a 72 column, starting with the console/terminal based
readers.

The text after "Dik T. Winter coughed up:" is in fact Thomas's quoting
of Dik, which got horribly miss wrapped, mainly because of the white
space before his quote char. Why should everyone change the way thing
have bene done the past decade anda half because one person decides to
diverge from that accepted norm?

**Floyd L. Davidson** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Randy Howard <randyhoward@FO OverizonBAR.net > wrote:[color=blue]
>Floyd,
>
>Sorry for the NMI in the middle of this otherwise interesting
>newsreader war, but what is the correct pronunciation of
>"Ukpeagvik"? ?[/color]

Oh, probably you'd be best understood if you say it

B a r r o w !

However, youk'-pee-agg-vik is probably as close as I can come to
right. The emphasis is on the first 'k'. I'm not sure about
that first syllable either, and "ook" or "you-uk" is what I
hear, but my ears are not good and I know that I don't hear the
subtle differences in many words.

There are other spellings too. Utqiagvik and Ukpiagvik are also
commonly seen.

At one time there was another village, Nuwuk, right out on Point
Barrow, but it hasn't been occupied since the 1930's or so.

--
FloydL. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.co m

**Floyd L. Davidson** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> wrote:[color=blue]
>Floyd L. Davidson wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> I had my newsreader reformat Dik's article and it came out
>> looking just fine (see below). If OE won't do that, get a
>> better newsreader![/color]
>
>I must onec again respectfully disagree; it has long been accepted on
>UseNet to use a 72 column, starting with the console/terminal based
>readers.[/color]

The "accepted" thing is simply don't make the line longer than
80. Everybody and their brother has a different idea of exactly
how much less than 80 is acceptable.
[color=blue]
>The text after "Dik T. Winter coughed up:" is in fact Thomas's quoting
>of Dik, which got horribly miss wrapped, mainly because of the white
>space before his quote char.[/color]

It got messed up *only* because someone attempted to reformat it
with a program unable to do it properly. 1) the text should
*not* be reformatted automatically, because it has leading white
space, 2) the text should not be manually reformatted with a
program that cannot correctly handle leading white space.

And *clearly* appropriate software exists, as I demonstrated to
you exactly how nicely it is done by Gnus.
[color=blue]
>Why should everyone change the way thing
>have bene done the past decade anda half because one person decides to
>diverge from that accepted norm?[/color]

Dik was *very astute* in placing the white space as he did,
given that the text contained a snipped of source code that
would be mangled by any reformatting.

The fact that you 1) don't know that Usenet has existed for 25
years now, and 2) don't know what the appropriate effect of
leading white space is, still won't make OE anything other than
a bit of trash that you should replace.

--
FloydL. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.co m

**Dik T. Winter** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

In article <2ukitfF2b3abtU 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:[color=blue]
> Dik T. Winter wrote:[color=green]
> > In article <wAPgd.512$fw2. 217@trndny01> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> > <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes: > Dik
> > T. Winter coughed up: ...
> > Refixing the bad quotes:[/color]
>
> Could you please not put any white space /before/ the quote character
> ">"[/color]

You know. I do it on purpose. You are the third person complaining in the
about 20 years I am posting on Usenet.
[color=blue]
> Putting white space, like:[color=green]
> > quoted text with whitespace before the quote token.[/color]
> interfears with quote level color-coders and "quoted text wrap fixers."[/color]

But it makes quotations clearer for those not using quote level color-codes.
[color=blue]
> I hope you can fix it. If you do not know how, post what reader you are
> using, as your headers don't show, and maybe some of us can help.[/color]

I know how to change it, and my newsreader is rn, thank you.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

**Floyd L. Davidson** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> wrote:[color=blue]
>Floyd L. Davidson wrote:[color=green]
>> The fact that you use one of if not the *worst* newsreaders
>> available, and apparently both have it misconfigured and don't
>> understand what it is or is not doing, has no effect on the
>> correctness of what Dik posted.[/color]
>
>It may nto be the best news reader, but I'd hardly call it the worst. I
>don't think you've seen Netscape/Mozilla Messenger (the one that would
>come with NS4 and mozilla equivalent at least.)[/color]

That won't make OE any better, but you do have a point that it
may not be the worst. But... what I said was "one of if not
the"... ;-) (There are several that actually are worse, to the
point of being simply unusable in any reasonable fashion.)
[color=blue]
>OE is actually a pretty solid news reader, if one knows how to use it[/color]

Cough. giggle. choke. laugh. Barrrfffffff!

(Now just look at the mess on my keyboard! I'm not worried
about how Dik quotes text, but I sure wish you wouldn't say
things like *that*.)
[color=blue]
>right. OEQuoteFix fixes the quoting/wrapping problems it has, which has
>always been the biggest problem, it also color-codes quoted text, which
>is also a godsend. Through the ability to sort Watched threads /AND/
>still sort by Date, I'd say it's a decent reader, when used with
>OEQuoteFix.
>
>If you don't want to use it, fine. We all use what we are comfortable
>with.[/color]

I'm not sure what "Watched threads" do in OE, but as one example,
Gnus (which is an eLisp package for news and email that runs
under either Emacs or XEmacs) does all of your other
requirements, plus a great deal more. And it comes with its own
little editor too. ;-)
[color=blue]
>(That said, if you know of a better news reader that can do what I
>mentioned, I'll be open & happy to try something new.)[/color]

I think most folks that use Microsoft systems recommend Forte
Agent, though I haven't kept up on that for a long time. There
is a free version and a commercial (greatly enhanced) version
too. Somebody who uses an MS platform can give you better
advice on that.

--
FloydL. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.co m

**Dik T. Winter** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

In article <hcbhd.842$o52. 240@trndny03> "Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes:
....[color=blue]
> Dik T. Winter, if it's ok with you, *please* change that. The *standard* is
> to quote a line by placing a ">" at the very beginning of the line.[/color]

What standard?
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

**Dik T. Winter** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

In article <2ul0ehF2aqbo1U 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:
....[color=blue]
> I don't reformat quoted text, I only fix word wrap snafus, where you
> have full line, followed by another line with 1 or 2 words, then another
> full line:[/color]

I generally reformat text I quoted to remain in my 80 character window.
Including all quote characters that are needed to make it a full textual
quote with reasonably filled lines. (Yes, I say 80, but in general I
keep it quite a bit below that figure.)
[color=blue][color=green]
> > quoted text i na full line blah blah blah
> > which is
> > screwy la la la la la[/color]
>
> This usuaully happens after a coupel levels of quoting, or when the
> person being quoted made their lines too long to begin with, which is
> more the case than the former.[/color]

This generally happens when a newsreader tries to reformat quotes without
having the faintest idea.
[color=blue]
> The point here, is that 99.9% of UseNet uses >, or |, or soem other
> quote character, /without/ and leading white space, and this is how most
> quote-level color-coding and broken-word-wrap fixers work, liek for what
> I described above, which only serve on the client end, to make the text
> mor readable.[/color]

My point is that (with my non-colour coded newsreader) I find quotes
flushed to the left quite unreadable, and unseparable from the actual
new text.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

**Dik T. Winter** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

In article <2ul0kdF2aer25U 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:[color=blue]
> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:[color=green]
> > Dik T. Winter coughed up:[color=darkred]
> > > In article <Bltgd.6$304.0@ trndny06> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> > > <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes: ...
> > > > I don't see i=i++ as ever anything useful, but 45° tangental to
> > > this > original thread is something that bothers me. There is a
> > > *prevailing* > notion that:
> > > > If it ain't standard C, it ain't C
> > > > which I think is not quite true.[/color][/color]
>
> Mr Dik Winter, this is the result of white spae before the quote token.
> This serves as an exellent example of what can happen, and why we are
> asking you to fix this :-)[/color]

My newsreader is a bit more intelligent. I have instructed it to insert
" > " before quotations. But if the quoted text already starts with a
space it will only insert " >".
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

**Floyd L. Davidson** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi .nl> wrote:[color=blue]
>In article <2ul0ehF2aqbo1U 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:
>[color=green]
> > The point here, is that 99.9% of UseNet uses >, or |, or soem other
> > quote character, /without/ and leading white space, and this is how most
> > quote-level color-coding and broken-word-wrap fixers work, liek for what
> > I described above, which only serve on the client end, to make the text
> > mor readable.[/color]
>
>My point is that (with my non-colour coded newsreader) I find quotes
>flushed to the left quite unreadable, and unseparable from the actual
>new text.[/color]

I had to look twice to even figure out what they were
complaining about. Gnus does "quote-level color-coding", and it
works just as expected... which is to say quite correctly with
your articles as well as with others.

--
FloydL. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.co m

**Thomas G. Marshall** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Floyd L. Davidson coughed up:

....[rip]...
[color=blue]
> The point you have *missed* is that 99.9% of all Usenet readers
> do the appropriate thing with what Dik T. Winters is posting.[/color]

You've tried them all, have you?

And that number isn't weighted by the number of folks actually using them.
I'm guessing that the number of folks using OE with OE_QuoteFix is very
large.

And this is the first time I've ever seen this issue before, and I've been
in usenet for a long time. So Dik T. Winters' style post is certainly not a
common occurrence.

....[rip]...

--
Onedoctortoanot her:"Ifthisismy rectalthermomet er,wherethehell 'smypen???"

**Thomas G. Marshall** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi .nl> wrote in message
news:I6H6L9.EEM @cwi.nl...[color=blue]
> In article <2ukitfF2b3abtU 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane"[/color]
<a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:[color=blue][color=green]
> > Dik T. Winter wrote:[color=darkred]
> > > In article <wAPgd.512$fw2. 217@trndny01> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> > > <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes: > Dik
> > > T. Winter coughed up: ...
> > > Refixing the bad quotes:[/color]
> >
> > Could you please not put any white space /before/ the quote character
> > ">"[/color]
>
> You know. I do it on purpose. You are the third person complaining in[/color]
the[color=blue]
> about 20 years I am posting on Usenet.[/color]

OE_QuoteFix didn't exist back that far.

Well, let me put it a slightly different way:

1. OE is enormously common.
2. More and more OE folks are using OE_QuoteFix
3. OE_QuoteFix does not regard {space}{reply marker}
as part of a reply.

So you're going to be dedicatedly producing posts that are hard to reply to
for a rather large number of people.

....[rip]...

--
It'salwaysbeenm ygoalinlifetocr eateasignaturet hatendedwiththe word"blarphoogy "
..

**Alfred Z. Newmane** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Thomas G. Marshall wrote:[color=blue]
> Floyd L. Davidson coughed up:
>
> ...[rip]...
>[color=green]
>> The point you have *missed* is that 99.9% of all Usenet readers
>> do the appropriate thing with what Dik T. Winters is posting.[/color]
>
> You've tried them all, have you?
>
> And that number isn't weighted by the number of folks actually using
> them. I'm guessing that the number of folks using OE with OE_QuoteFix
> is very large.
>
> And this is the first time I've ever seen this issue before, and I've
> been in usenet for a long time. So Dik T. Winters' style post is
> certainly not a common occurrence.[/color]

And as I was trying to point out, it's not common for very good reasons.

**Alfred Z. Newmane** · Jul 22 '05, 09:20 PM

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Thomas G. Marshall wrote:[color=blue]
> "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi .nl> wrote in message
> news:I6H6L9.EEM @cwi.nl...[color=green]
>> In article <2ukitfF2b3abtU 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane"[/color]
> <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > Dik T. Winter wrote:
>> > > In article <wAPgd.512$fw2. 217@trndny01> "Thomas G. Marshall"
>> > > <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes:
>> > Dik > > T. Winter coughed up: ...
>> > > Refixing the bad quotes:
>> >
>> > Could you please not put any white space /before/ the quote[/color]
>> character > ">"
>>
>> You know. I do it on purpose. You are the third person complaining
>> in the about 20 years I am posting on Usenet.[/color]
>
>
> OE_QuoteFix didn't exist back that far.
>
> Well, let me put it a slightly different way:
>
> 1. OE is enormously common.
> 2. More and more OE folks are using OE_QuoteFix
> 3. OE_QuoteFix does not regard {space}{reply marker}
> as part of a reply.
>
> So you're going to be dedicatedly producing posts that are hard to
> reply to for a rather large number of people.[/color]

And not just people using OE_QuoteFix, other readers as well. OEQF is
just the tip of the ice burg. I've seen styles like Dik make things hard
to read in google groups as well.

C to Java Byte Code

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