C to Java Byte Code

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  • Arthur J. O'Dwyer

    Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code


    [f-ups set to c.p, where this discussion may be marginally topical]

    On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Dik T. Winter wrote:[color=blue]
    > Alfred Z. Newmane <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:[color=green]
    >> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:[color=darkred]
    >>> Dik T. Winter coughed up:
    >>>> In article <Bltgd.6$304.0@ trndny06> "Thomas G. Marshall" writes:
    >>>>> I don't see i=i++ as ever anything useful, but 45° tangental to
    >>>>> this original thread is something that bothers me. There is a
    >>>>> *prevailing* notion that:
    >>>>> If it ain't standard C, it ain't C
    >>>>> which I think is not quite true.[/color]
    >>
    >> Mr Dik Winter, this is the result of white spae before the quote token.
    >> This serves as an exellent example of what can happen, and why we are
    >> asking you to fix this :-)[/color]
    >
    > My newsreader is a bit more intelligent. I have instructed it to insert
    > " > " before quotations. But if the quoted text already starts with a
    > space it will only insert " >".[/color]

    How about if the quoted text starts with ">"? One of my pet peeves
    is news clients that insert extra levels of spaces in quotes; a couple
    of levels is okay, but the above quote would end up being
    [color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
    > > > > In article <Bltgd.6$304.0@ trndny06> "Thomas G. Marshall" writes:
    > > > > > I don't see i=i++ as ever anything useful, but 45° tangental to
    > > > > > this original thread is something that bothers me. There is a
    > > > > > *prevailing* notion that:
    > > > > > If it ain't standard C, it ain't C
    > > > > > which I think is not quite true.[/color][/color][/color]

    if everyone used your newsreader's conventions without any hand-tweaking,
    and that just looks ridiculous---some 1/7 of the total screen real estate
    is being taken up by quote markers, which ought to be almost redundant
    anyway, if quoting is done properly. (IOW, it ought to be pretty easy
    to tell when the writer is "speaking" and when the previous contributors
    are "speaking"; the quote markers are IMHO just there for academic reasons
    (e.g., "Yes, Elmer did really write that sentence, and not another").

    -Arthur,
    rambling late at night

    Comment

    • Richard Herring

      Re: Welcome back Paul Lutus

      In message <C9WdncBucbUz9h ncRVn-sw@comcast.com> , Merrill & Michele
      <beckjensen@com cast.net> writes[color=blue]
      >[color=green][color=darkred]
      >> >E. Robert Tisdale:
      >> >Hi Paul,
      >> >
      >> >Welcome back to the comp.lang.c and comp.lang.c++ newsgroups.
      >> >I checked Google newsgroups.
      >> >
      >> > http://groups.google.com/
      >> >
      >> >You've been absent from comp.lang.c++ since October 20, 2003
      >> >and absent from comp.lang.c since May 30,2002.
      >> >
      >> >No matter. Very little has changed since you've been gone. :-)[/color][/color]
      >[color=green]
      >> Richard Herring:
      >> Please don't trollishly crosspost between C and C++ groups. The outcome
      >> is rarely beneficial.[/color]
      >
      >But that indeed might be in this case, as I might learn how to do so, and
      >this event, in turn, might allow me to teach nasa a little rocket science.
      >Although I saw no signs of intelligent life in usenet besides here, how is
      >crossposting done? MPJ
      >[/color]
      By putting something appropriate in the Newsgroups: header line.

      --
      Richard Herring

      Comment

      • Thomas G. Marshall

        Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

        Dik T. Winter coughed up:[color=blue]
        > In article <2ul0kdF2aer25U 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane"
        > <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes: > Thomas G. Marshall
        > wrote: > > Dik T. Winter coughed up:[color=green][color=darkred]
        > > > > In article <Bltgd.6$304.0@ trndny06> "Thomas G. Marshall"
        > > > > <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes:[/color][/color]
        > ... > > > > I don't see i=i++ as ever anything useful, but 45°
        > tangental to > > > this > original thread is something that bothers
        > me. There is a > > > *prevailing* > notion that:[color=green][color=darkred]
        > > > > > If it ain't standard C, it ain't C
        > > > > > which I think is not quite true.[/color]
        > >
        > > Mr Dik Winter, this is the result of white spae before the quote[/color]
        > token. > This serves as an exellent example of what can happen, and
        > why we are > asking you to fix this :-)
        >
        > My newsreader is a bit more intelligent. I have instructed it to
        > insert " > " before quotations. But if the quoted text already
        > starts with a
        > space it will only insert " >".[/color]


        Well, in any case, I've asked the creator of OE_QuoteFix about this issue.
        He'll contact me with /his/ take on it, probably soon.


        --
        Framsticks. 3D Artificial Life evolution. You can see the creatures
        that evolve and how they interact, hunt, swim, etc. (Unaffiliated with
        me). http://www.frams.alife.pl/


        Comment

        • Programmer Dude

          Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

          Floyd L. Davidson writes:
          [color=blue]
          > I think most folks that use Microsoft systems recommend Forte
          > Agent, though I haven't kept up on that for a long time. There
          > is a free version and a commercial (greatly enhanced) version
          > too. Somebody who uses an MS platform can give you better
          > advice on that.[/color]

          I've been using the "paid-for" version of Agent for many months
          now. It's okay, but it has a number of annoying things that have
          over those months determined me to seek a better newsreader.

          The text editor has some non-Windows weirdnesses I really dislike,
          and the folders section is only one level deep--no subfolders.
          (That last alone is almost enough to condemn it in my mind.)

          It also suffers the unix disease of being to damn configurable.

          Comment

          • Programmer Dude

            Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

            Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
            [color=blue]
            > Why should everyone change the way thing have bene done the past
            > decade anda half because one person decides to diverge from that
            > accepted norm?[/color]

            Intelligence.
            Creativity.
            Lack of being a goddamned sheep.
            Lack of being an anal controlling asshole.

            Comment

            • Alfred Z. Newmane

              Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

              Programmer Dude wrote:[color=blue]
              > Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
              >[color=green]
              >> Why should everyone change the way thing have bene done the past
              >> decade anda half because one person decides to diverge from that
              >> accepted norm?[/color]
              >
              > Intelligence.
              > Creativity.
              > Lack of being a goddamned sheep.
              > Lack of being an anal controlling asshole.[/color]

              Now this is /NOT/ what this is about. I have no problem with making
              improvements any any existing thing, but making unnecissary changes to
              something that has been vastly accepted for /good reason/, and not just
              merely because it is an accepted norm. It's all for the sake for sane
              news reading, not having to deal with malformed quoting and broken quote
              casscades.


              Comment

              • Alfred Z. Newmane

                Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

                Programmer Dude wrote:[color=blue]
                > Floyd L. Davidson writes:
                >[color=green]
                >> I think most folks that use Microsoft systems recommend Forte
                >> Agent, though I haven't kept up on that for a long time. There
                >> is a free version and a commercial (greatly enhanced) version
                >> too. Somebody who uses an MS platform can give you better
                >> advice on that.[/color]
                >
                > I've been using the "paid-for" version of Agent for many months
                > now. It's okay, but it has a number of annoying things that have
                > over those months determined me to seek a better newsreader.[/color]

                Any suggestions then?
                [color=blue]
                > The text editor has some non-Windows weirdnesses I really dislike,
                > and the folders section is only one level deep--no subfolders.
                > (That last alone is almost enough to condemn it in my mind.)[/color]

                Agreed. If you are developing for a certain platform, you should take
                note of how things like controls (buttons, menus, checkboxes, etc) and
                arangements are commonly used in better programs.

                One of the biggest problems I've seen in cross platform applications is
                sticking to a certain model that works well on one platform but makes it
                harder to use on another.

                One of my core programing models is this:

                "Keep things simple."

                Knowing how to create applications that are both simple /and/ powerful
                is a good trait to have in the programming world, but alas, bosses
                aren't always as keen :(
                [color=blue]
                > It also suffers the unix disease of being to damn configurable.[/color]

                True, that can be a pain sometimes, although I realy like Linux :-)
                Actually there is sort of a drowing trend to have an "Advanced or
                Simple" mode switch, though sometimes it doesn't seem to come out quite
                right.


                Comment

                • Dik T. Winter

                  Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

                  In article <2uo19rF2dhgalU 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:
                  ....[color=blue]
                  > Now this is /NOT/ what this is about. I have no problem with making
                  > improvements any any existing thing, but making unnecissary changes to
                  > something that has been vastly accepted for /good reason/, and not just
                  > merely because it is an accepted norm. It's all for the sake for sane
                  > news reading, not having to deal with malformed quoting and broken quote
                  > casscades.[/color]

                  Have you read what I wrote? I use this kind of quoting already about 17
                  years. Once upon a time it was propagated for good reasons, and so I
                  started with it in early 1987. So who is changing what? See:
                  <http://groups.google.n l/groups?as_umsgi d=352%40zuring. mcvax.cwi.nl>
                  and also see that Google has no problems with it; colour-coding is OK.
                  Google apparently knows a bit more about quoting than other systems.
                  The apparent requirement that quotation marks should *not* be preceded
                  by a space is an arbitrary change from previous practice. (To be
                  entirely correct, I changed it between 11 November 1986 and 25 April
                  1987.)
                  --
                  dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
                  home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

                  Comment

                  • David Schwartz

                    Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code


                    "Jerry Coffin" <jcoffin@taeus. com> wrote in message
                    news:b2e4b04.04 10291754.29b5dd 46@posting.goog le.com...[color=blue]
                    > "Thomas G. Marshall"
                    > <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> wrote in message
                    > news:<Bltgd.6$3 04.0@trndny06>. ..[/color]
                    [color=blue][color=green]
                    >> There is a *prevailing* notion that:
                    >>
                    >> If it ain't standard C, it ain't C[/color]
                    >
                    > This is more than a mere notion: it's a tautology, since C is defined
                    > by the standard.[/color]

                    Anything not prohibited by the C standard is C. Anything not in the
                    standard is not the C language itself, but it does not follow that it is not
                    C.

                    To permit me an analogy, any conversation in English is English.
                    However, that doesn't mean that the coversation is *about* English.

                    To argue that anything not explicitly defined in the C standard is not C
                    is to argue that conversations that aren't about English aren't in English.

                    Of course, this has no bearing on what is or isn't topical on
                    comp.lang.c or comp.lang.c++ which are for dicussions of the respective
                    languages themselves. If we had 'lang.english' it would not follow that
                    because any discussion in English *is* English, it's therefore topical in
                    lang.english.

                    DS


                    Comment

                    • Richard Bos

                      Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

                      "Thomas G. Marshall"
                      <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> wrote:
                      [color=blue]
                      > Well, let me put it a slightly different way:
                      >
                      > 1. OE is enormously common.[/color]

                      That is not Dik's fault.

                      GARN.

                      Richard

                      Comment

                      • Thomas G. Marshall

                        Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

                        Richard Bos coughed up:[color=blue]
                        > "Thomas G. Marshall"
                        > <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> wrote:
                        >[color=green]
                        >> Well, let me put it a slightly different way:
                        >>
                        >> 1. OE is enormously common.[/color]
                        >
                        > That is not Dik's fault.[/color]

                        Thoughtless comment. I never said it was. What I said is fully orthogonal
                        to "who is right" here. Recap:


                        <full quote>

                        Well, let me put it a slightly different way:

                        1. OE is enormously common.
                        2. More and more OE folks are using OE_QuoteFix
                        3. OE_QuoteFix does not regard {space}{reply marker}
                        as part of a reply.

                        So you're going to be dedicatedly producing posts that are hard to reply to
                        for a rather large number of people.

                        </full quote>

                        This has nothing to do with who or which technique "is right".




                        --
                        http://www.allexperts.com is a nifty way to get an answer to just about
                        /anything/.


                        Comment

                        • Thomas G. Marshall

                          Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

                          David Schwartz coughed up:[color=blue]
                          > "Jerry Coffin" <jcoffin@taeus. com> wrote in message
                          > news:b2e4b04.04 10291754.29b5dd 46@posting.goog le.com...[color=green]
                          >> "Thomas G. Marshall"
                          >> <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> wrote in
                          >> message news:<Bltgd.6$3 04.0@trndny06>. ..[/color]
                          >[color=green][color=darkred]
                          >>> There is a *prevailing* notion that:
                          >>>
                          >>> If it ain't standard C, it ain't C[/color]
                          >>
                          >> This is more than a mere notion: it's a tautology, since C is defined
                          >> by the standard.[/color]
                          >
                          > Anything not prohibited by the C standard is C. Anything not in
                          > the standard is not the C language itself, but it does not follow
                          > that it is not C.[/color]

                          Yep, IMO as well. Basically I would go further to say that non-STD C is C
                          by definition. But I'm trying like crazy to not make this /sound/ like a
                          semantic argument.

                          [color=blue]
                          > To permit me an analogy, any conversation in English is English.
                          > However, that doesn't mean that the coversation is *about* English.
                          >
                          > To argue that anything not explicitly defined in the C standard
                          > is not C is to argue that conversations that aren't about English
                          > aren't in English.
                          >
                          > Of course, this has no bearing on what is or isn't topical on
                          > comp.lang.c or comp.lang.c++ which are for dicussions of the
                          > respective languages themselves. If we had 'lang.english' it would
                          > not follow that because any discussion in English *is* English, it's
                          > therefore topical in lang.english.
                          >
                          > DS[/color]



                          --
                          http://www.allexperts.com is a nifty way to get an answer to just about
                          /anything/.


                          Comment

                          • Programmer Dude

                            Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

                            Thomas G. Marshall writes:
                            [color=blue]
                            > 1. OE is enormously common.
                            > 2. More and more OE folks are using OE_QuoteFix
                            > 3. OE_QuoteFix does not regard {space}{reply marker}
                            > as part of a reply.
                            >
                            > So you're going to be dedicatedly producing posts that are hard
                            > to reply to for a rather large number of people.[/color]

                            TS. There is a common sense among the cognoscenti that folks who
                            use OE get exactly what they deserve.

                            An even more common sense is that it's absurd to modify ones own
                            behavior for arguably defective software used by others.

                            Comment

                            • Programmer Dude

                              Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

                              Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
                              [color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
                              >>> Why should everyone change the way thing have bene done the past
                              >>> decade anda half because one person decides to diverge from that
                              >>> accepted norm?[/color]
                              >>
                              >> Intelligence.
                              >> Creativity.
                              >> Lack of being a goddamned sheep.
                              >> Lack of being an anal controlling asshole.[/color]
                              >
                              > Now this is /NOT/ what this is about.[/color]

                              [shrug] Smells to me like it is.
                              [color=blue]
                              > I have no problem with making improvements any any existing thing,
                              > but making unnecissary changes to something that has been vastly
                              > accepted for /good reason/,...[/color]

                              But who's to say it's really good reason and not a self-limiting,
                              fear-of-change, fear-of-growth thing?

                              Change is good.
                              [color=blue]
                              > ...and not just merely because it is an accepted norm.[/color]

                              But I perceive that that's a lot of the real reason behind these
                              sorts of threads. I've seen them often. Just suggest that it
                              is inevitable that amUSENET will migrate to HTML and watch the
                              reactions!
                              [color=blue]
                              > It's all for the sake for sane news reading, not having to deal
                              > with malformed quoting and broken quote casscades.[/color]

                              I think some folks take amUSENET way too seriously. When how other
                              people write a post starts to actually affect you, it's time to
                              unplug the network cable and get outside and breath some real air.

                              Change is good. Variety is good.

                              Comment

                              • Crom

                                Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

                                Programmer Dude wrote:[color=blue]
                                > Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
                                >[color=green][color=darkred]
                                >>>> Why should everyone change the way thing have bene done the past
                                >>>> decade anda half because one person decides to diverge from that
                                >>>> accepted norm?
                                >>>
                                >>> Intelligence.
                                >>> Creativity.
                                >>> Lack of being a goddamned sheep.
                                >>> Lack of being an anal controlling asshole.[/color]
                                >>
                                >> Now this is /NOT/ what this is about.[/color]
                                >
                                > [shrug] Smells to me like it is.
                                >[color=green]
                                >> I have no problem with making improvements any any existing thing,
                                >> but making unnecissary changes to something that has been vastly
                                >> accepted for /good reason/,...[/color]
                                >
                                > But who's to say it's really good reason and not a self-limiting,
                                > fear-of-change, fear-of-growth thing?
                                >
                                > Change is good.
                                >[color=green]
                                >> ...and not just merely because it is an accepted norm.[/color]
                                >
                                > But I perceive that that's a lot of the real reason behind these
                                > sorts of threads. I've seen them often. Just suggest that it
                                > is inevitable that amUSENET will migrate to HTML and watch the
                                > reactions!
                                >[color=green]
                                >> It's all for the sake for sane news reading, not having to deal
                                >> with malformed quoting and broken quote casscades.[/color]
                                >
                                > I think some folks take amUSENET way too seriously. When how other
                                > people write a post starts to actually affect you, it's time to
                                > unplug the network cable and get outside and breath some real air.
                                >
                                > Change is good. Variety is good.[/color]

                                Even if it completely breaks existing established unwritten standards?
                                This isn't soem dictatorship telling you what to wear or who to vote
                                for, or whatever, it's about news readers and something that wasnt'
                                broken being fixed by morons. So for crying out loud, get off this
                                stupid loony fringe of yours and join reality please.


                                Comment

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