DB developing

['69 Camaro]

Re: DB developing

Hi, Miriam.
[color=blue]
> I think I should consider learning and being a certified Oracle
> proffessional or something. What do you guys think?[/color]

I think you should find out whether you're cut out for it first, as training
and certification for Oracle professionals is quite expensive and requires
some amount of effort to succeed. There's the Oracle DBA track and the
Oracle developer track, and most people choose one or the other, because
there just aren't that many people who are good at both database
architecture/maintenance and software development.

I'd recommend downloading and installing the free Oracle database engine and
tools. Use them for a while and decide if this is your cup 'o tea.

For your database engine:

Oracle Database 10g Express Edition:

http://www.oracle.com/technology/pro.../xe/index.html


For database administration (and specifically the DBA track):

Oracle SQL Developer:

http://www.oracle.com/technology/sof...sql/index.html

Quest's TOAD (free trial):

http://www.quest.com/toad_for_oracle

Quest's TOAD (freeware -- limited features and expires every 60 days):

http://www.toadsoft.com/lic_agree.html

List of the differences between the TOAD freeware and the commercial
version:

http://www.quest.com/events/listdetails.aspx?ContentID=2229

For database application development (and specifically the Oracle developer
track):

Oracle JDeveloper 10g:

http://www.oracle.com/tools/jdev_home.html

Oracle Developer Suite (including JDeveloper, Oracle Designer,
Oracle Forms Developer, Oracle Software Configuration Manager,
Oracle Reports Developer, Oracle Discoverer, Oracle Warehouse
Builder, and Oracle Business Intelligence Beans):

http://www.oracle.com/tools/tools_editions.html

Oracle TopLink and Application Development Framework:

http://www.oracle.com/tools/toplink_adf.html

Oracle .NET Development Tools:

http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/dotnet/index.html

Oracle BPEL Process Manager:

http://www.oracle.com/technology/pro...pel/index.html
[color=blue]
> A week ago I had this feeling that I'm wasting my time
> in Access.[/color]

I'm an Oracle DBA, and I got my start in relational databases with Access
several years ago. But before that, I was a software engineer in the Unix
world. Because of my background in software development, I could easily see
the novice computer skill level that Access is designed to exploit, so I
avoided using the common techniques that would allow me to shoot myself in
the foot when working with Access while I was getting valuable basic
experience with relational databases and their front end applications. I
also easily transferred the skills I learned in Access to Oracle, Informix,
SQL Server, and MySQL, because I made sure that I learned the right database
skills, such as normalization, SQL, techniques in relational database
design, referential integrity, cardinality, and performance tuning.

Client/server databases are more complex than Access by an order of
magnitude, and Oracle is more complex than many client/servers by another
order of magnitude. If your training ground taught you the skills I listed
above and required you to use SQL instead of the QBE Design Grid, and write
your own VBA expressions instead of relying on the Expression Builder, and
write VBA code instead of relying on the Control Wizards' poorly written
code or building macros, and never use brackets to "fix" incorrectly-named
identifiers in your code, then there's a good chance you can survive in the
client/server world, and possibly in the Oracle world, too.
[color=blue]
> I don't think it's wise to keep on working with Access.[/color]

Access makes an excellent front end to client/server databases in a RAD
environment that produces database applications in a fraction of the time,
and therefore at a fraction of the labor cost, as it does for other front
end solutions. So being able to build a stable, effective Access front end
is a definitely an asset. However, Access has a fairly steep learning
curve, so unless you've been tutored by Access gurus, in six months you're
not going to learn enough to create stable, effective front ends in a
fraction of the time as it takes for other front end solutions, unless
they're very simple front ends.

If you want to become really good at building stable, effective front ends
fast and cheaply, then plan to spend a few more years learning and
developing in Access. If you want to become a DBA or a database application
developer, one successful database application is a good start, but you need
to work on lots more to gain enough experience to become good at what you
do. Find technologies that interest you and where you have free or cheap
access to their tools, whether it be Oracle, SQL Server, Java, .Net, Delphi,
or any number of competing database engines and software development
technologies. Get experience building databases or database applications
with these tools, even if these aren't paid work assignments. Having the
skills for your next job when you seek it is usually more valuable than
having been paid to learn these skills on a previous job.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.


"Louly" <miro1eg@gmail. com> wrote in message
news:1147332123 .315753.113160@ q12g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com.. .[color=blue]
> Hi everybody,
>
> I'm a 22 yrs old girl. I've been developing a Database for 6 months no
> using Access. A week ago I had this feeling that I'm wasting my time
> in Access. I don't think it's wise to keep on working with Access.
> Instead I think I should consider learning and being a certified Oracle
> proffessional or something. What do you guys think?
>
> Thanks for your help.
> Miriam
>[/color]

[DFS]

Re: DB developing

'69 Camaro wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi, Miriam.
>[color=green]
>> I think I should consider learning and being a certified Oracle
>> proffessional or something. What do you guys think?[/color]
>
> I think you should find out whether you're cut out for it first, as
> training and certification for Oracle professionals is quite
> expensive and requires some amount of effort to succeed. There's the
> Oracle DBA track and the Oracle developer track, and most people
> choose one or the other, because there just aren't that many people
> who are good at both database architecture/maintenance and software
> development.[/color]

Mr. Camaro,

Do you have an OCP designation? Any suggestions for training classes, or
instructors/firms? I haven't looked: are all the classes taught by Oracle
employees? How many are required?

I've been thinking off and on about pursuing an OCP - not sure whether DBA
or developer track. I have enough experience to step into an Oracle
"developmen t DBA" or data architect role (in fact I've done it a couple of
times), but after being the sole developer/DBA on so many Access/Oracle/SQL
Server projects, I think being just a full-time DBA would get boring. I
like to write code, to build interface-event driven systems, and write adhoc
query systems, and slice n' dice data.

Whaddaya think?

Thanks

['69 Camaro]

Re: DB developing

Hi.
[color=blue]
> Do you have an OCP designation?[/color]

No. I've taken the required courses, and I probably should have taken the
exams as well, but I've worked with so many certified IT personnel in other
technologies who can't do their jobs unless they're assigned very simple,
routine tasks that I'd rather keep my distance from the category of
"certified clueless."
[color=blue]
> Any suggestions for training classes, or
> instructors/firms?[/color]

Your best bet is to go to work for a large company with a budget to send
employees to formal classes, because it's expensive and takes a good number
of weeks of all-day training, usually located in a nearby major city. If
you pick the right company to work for, the company will pay for both the
classes and your travel expenses, too.

Bring a tape recorder with you to record the instructor, because you'll
probably need to replay it over and over later to figure out what he said.
About half of the Oracle employee instructors speak English as a second or
third language, and their accents are so thick that much of what they're
saying is incomprehensibl e. They assure you that they aren't on work visas
and have lived in the U.S. for decades, but you can tell that they recently
immigrated to the U.S. and learned English from non-native English speakers
because of the bizarre things they say, especially when they attempt to use
slang or humor, and they aren't yet familiar with any American social
customs.
[color=blue]
> I haven't looked: are all the classes taught by Oracle
> employees?[/color]

No, but most are. The classes taught at Oracle training facilities are
usually taught by Oracle employees. Some Oracle classes are taught at major
corporations by that corporation's employees who are Oracle-certified
trainers. For example, a close friend of mine is so good at Oracle that he
went up through the ranks of certification and eventually became an
Oracle-certified trainer of Oracle trainers, and has trained Disney, 3M, and
GMAC employees to train their company's employees in formal Oracle courses
in their company's classrooms. He has never worked for Oracle (they can't
pay him enough to lure him away).
[color=blue]
> How many are required?[/color]

Depends upon how far you want to go. It takes a minimum of two exams and at
least one "hands-on" course (a formal Oracle course) to receive the first
level of certification, Oracle Certified Associate (OCA). Please see the
following Web page for more information on Oracle certifications:

http://education.oracle.com/pls/web_...age?page_id=50
[color=blue]
> I think being just a full-time DBA would get boring. I
> like to write code, to build interface-event driven systems, and write
> adhoc
> query systems, and slice n' dice data.[/color]

Even full-time DBA's can write a lot of code and queries that slice 'n dice
data. If the organization has never before had a professional Oracle DBA,
then a lot of the dynamic SQL needed for database maintenance and easy
schema migrations hasn't been written yet. And application developers are
always asking for help with their SQL, stored procedures in PL/SQL, and even
SQL*Plus for their ad-hoc reports if they don't have a more sophistocated
tool. The Oracle DBA is the expert they turn to.
[color=blue]
> Whaddaya think?[/color]

It sounds like you should aim for the developer certification path, but you
should also take a few of the DBA courses to learn about the "whys" and
"hows" of the database engine so that you can be a more effective database
application developer, and even step into a junior Oracle DBA role whenever
necessary -- which will make you more valuable to a company.

HTH.
Gunny

See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs.
See http://www.Access.QBuilt.com for Microsoft Access tips and tutorials.
http://www.Access.QBuilt.com/html/ex...ributors2.html for contact
info.


"DFS" <nospam@dfs_.co m> wrote in message
news:_lQ8g.2098 6$Sl4.2903@bign ews1.bellsouth. net...[color=blue]
> '69 Camaro wrote:[color=green]
>> Hi, Miriam.
>>[color=darkred]
>>> I think I should consider learning and being a certified Oracle
>>> proffessional or something. What do you guys think?[/color]
>>
>> I think you should find out whether you're cut out for it first, as
>> training and certification for Oracle professionals is quite
>> expensive and requires some amount of effort to succeed. There's the
>> Oracle DBA track and the Oracle developer track, and most people
>> choose one or the other, because there just aren't that many people
>> who are good at both database architecture/maintenance and software
>> development.[/color]
>
> Mr. Camaro,
>
> Do you have an OCP designation? Any suggestions for training classes, or
> instructors/firms? I haven't looked: are all the classes taught by Oracle
> employees? How many are required?
>
> I've been thinking off and on about pursuing an OCP - not sure whether DBA
> or developer track. I have enough experience to step into an Oracle
> "developmen t DBA" or data architect role (in fact I've done it a couple of
> times), but after being the sole developer/DBA on so many
> Access/Oracle/SQL
> Server projects, I think being just a full-time DBA would get boring. I
> like to write code, to build interface-event driven systems, and write
> adhoc
> query systems, and slice n' dice data.
>
> Whaddaya think?
>
> Thanks
>
>[/color]

[David W. Fenton]

Re: DB developing

"Larry Linson" <bouncer@localh ost.not> wrote in
news:WeP8g.9022 $Fh.5138@trnddc 02:
[color=blue]
> Yes, I've gotten those typical recruiter calls: "Have a great
> opportunity for you... 95% done; just finish it and create a few
> reports, about a week or two."
>
> If you dig deep enough, you'll find the facts:
>
> Requirements: in the head of some user manager, often a
> ditzy one;
> always one with "no spare time for talking about the database
> again"; or worse, in a user committee who weren't able to agree
> sufficiently to write anything down. Usable % done - 0%.
>
> Design: embodied only in the completed portion of database
> itself,
> if any. Usable % done - 0%.
>
> Implementation: in the head of the last developer who fled
> screaming
> into the night: 50%. in the garbage can: 40%; in the database
> without a single comment and with meaningless labels and variable
> names, and created without a design: 5% - Usable % done - 0%.
>
> Time to completion: most probable estimate: infinite,
> because you'll
> never be able to extract anything but a vague, hand-waving
> description from that ditzy user manager or committee.
>
> Time before you flee screaming into the night like the
> previous
> several developers: depends on your constitution and how gladly
> you suffer fools, but you won't even be well-started on getting
> the Requirements in the stated one or two weeks. Depending on the
> nervousness of whoever's holding the customer purse-strings, you
> may be unceremoniously dumped for "exceeding the recruiter's
> estimate" long before your patience runs out.
>
> Rate the recruiter is willing to pay you: up to $10 - 15
> per hour.
> I mean, what do you expect for someone with no more experience and
> no better credentials than you bring to the table.
>
> Rate the recruiter is charging the customer: $100 - $150
> per hour,
> or more. I mean, what do they expect for the "Top Access Guy/Gal
> in this Area"[/color]

Brilliant post, Larry.

It's not at all far off from the real world at all, not even really
exaggerated.

When these kinds of things cross my desk, I just tell them something
like "$XX/hour, 18-100 hours." This usually scares the bad ones away
as they can't imagine committing to the larger number.

The usual situation is that someone describes the process as "really
simple and straightforward ," not because it *is* simple and
straightforward (they are in no position to judge), but because they
*want* it to be simple and straightforward , and that's what they
want to pay for it.

Here's how one of those went. I'd seen a posting on a non-Access
list:
[color=blue]
> I need someone to help develop a small MS access project. Need a
> project rate, so contact me via email with a resume and experience
> with MS Access as well as availability this week and I will
> provide details of the project.[/color]

Without a detailed spec, I do not quote project rates.

My rate is $70/hour.

===
My next reply was:
[color=blue]
> Thank you! Well, a chamber of commerce has asked me to basically
> develop a complete Access form whereby one can:
>
> 1. Enter contact information
> a. Normal fields include (but is not limited to) Company name,
> Contact 1, contact 2, contact 3, address, phone, email, website,
> membership date (for each contact), event participation (for each
> contact), notes, board member/officer year (for each contact) --
> I WILL SEND YOU ALL THE FIELDS WHEN WE ARE READY. b. Other more
> advanced fields are drop downs which need to be editable by
> another form to include options for membership status, business
> type 2. Search information to display a report or print address
> labels: a. By all fields using either one or many of the options
>
> Let me know what the cost and the date this could be completed.[/color]

Well, that's not even close to being detailed enough to put a fixed
price on it. I'd estimate it as 12-36 hours, but can't get any more
specific about that unless there's more specific information,
including the schema, any outside dependencies, any compatibility
issues (do they want to do Word mail merges? will they be sending
files in a particular format to a mailing house, etc.).

I'm mostly available but have a few duties to accomplish in the next
couple of weeks, but I work from home and can easily move things
around in my work schedule to accommodate a project that's on the
fast track.

Mailing lists sound very easy. But they aren't. There are a whole
host of issues that most people don't consider, and that I've been
through many times and know are stumbling blocks. Here are some:

1. existing data -- is there any? Is it clean? Does it have dead
addresses in it? Is it in a normalized format?

2. is the mailed entity in all cases an individual, or is it
sometimes and organization and sometimes a person at an
organization? Are there multiple people being mailed at a single
address?

3. phone numbers and addresses: how normalized should this be? How
useful is normalization to them for what they are going to be using
it for? Is it going to serve as their main phone book/address book?
If so, phone numbers and addresses should be normalized to make
lookups accurate and efficient.

4. do you need historical membership information? Or just the most
recent? If so, the membership date has to go in a separate table,
rather than just being a field in the member record.

5. what exactly gets tracked in the events table? How many events
are involved? Are they recurring or ad hoc?

6. besides labels, what reports do they need? Phone book printout?
Address book printout? Event attendance? Membership?

7. how do they handle membership? Does everybody expire once a year?
What do they do with lapsed members? Do they need to generate
reminders for mailing to the members who are renewing?

That's just a few that occur to me off the top of my head.

I did a simple membership/event tracking app for a client last year
(I note that I forgot about it when I last updated my resume), and
the biggest problem I had with the project was getting the client to
decide what they wanted to do. It wasn't a matter of them
understanding the options, but the problem was that they couldn't
make decisions. They also had about 3K records in their legacy
membership list, and they needed to do a data cleanup before they
could start using the new application (it wouldn't have mattered if
the data were messy, but they wanted it cleaned up first), and they
ended up splitting up the list editing among volunteers using Excel
spreadsheets, and I ended up having to program an import routine to
take the Excel spreadsheets and process them against the existing
data records. This seemed trivial in the beginning, but ended up
taking up a great deal of time.

So, before I can say anything useful about the actual price, lots of
issues need to be resolved.

If you'd like me to meet with the client to iron these things out,
that's fine. That makes it much easier for me to get a feel for what
target we're aiming at. But, if you want to handle all the client
interaction, that's fine, too.

===
And that resulted in this:

You wrote:[color=blue]
> That would be too much.[/color]

With such a nebulous project description, it's impossible for me to
quote anything that doesn't include a huge CYA factor. Anyone with
any experience in this kind of thing will tell you the same thing.

If you hire someone cheap and what your client ends up with never
really works properly, I'm still available to fix it -- much of my
work is precisely that, fixing up failed Access development
projects.

Good luck finding someone competent for less than what I quoted.

===

I was perfectly happy not to get the job, as it was clearly a case
of someone who hadn't a clue what the hell was going on.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/

[David W. Fenton]

Re: DB developing

"'69 Camaro" <ForwardZERO_SP AM.To.69Camaro@ Spameater.orgZE RO_SPAM>
wrote in news:NvOdnR6kPK juWv7ZnZ2dnUVZ_ tmdnZ2d@adelphi a.com:
[color=blue]
> Get experience building databases or database applications[/color]

This is the key distinction that most people using Access never
quite get: the application is distinct from the database, and the
skills needed for the two are completely different.

There is no end of work for Access applications, since they can run
as front end against any back end.

But there are limitations to what kinds of databases can be usefully
built in Access (i.e., JET). Those limitations are capacious enough,
though, to encompass the vast majority of small businesses in the
world (i.e., businesses with fewer than 100 employees), and it's not
at all that hard to make at least part of a decent living in a large
city as an Access developer working only with small businesses.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/

[Larry Linson]

Re: DB developing

I'm determinig categories of projects to refer to Lyle. In this thread, I've
found I can add all those projects with deeply nested Withs. They go right
in there along with the DAPs and ADPs with ADO.

And, to someone who posted that the same is true for any nesting, I
disagree -- it's the same only if the nesting omits part of the definition
or statement. It could have been worse I suppose... each level of nesting
could be applied to the earlier levels so there would be, potentially, a
long string of omitted names for you to go back and figure it out.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP


"David W. Fenton" <XXXusenet@dfen ton.com.invalid > wrote in message
news:Xns97C15F0 BA7683f99a49ed1 d0c49c5bbb2@127 .0.0.1...[color=blue]
> "Larry Linson" <bouncer@localh ost.not> wrote in
> news:WeP8g.9022 $Fh.5138@trnddc 02:
>[color=green]
>> Yes, I've gotten those typical recruiter calls: "Have a great
>> opportunity for you... 95% done; just finish it and create a few
>> reports, about a week or two."
>>
>> If you dig deep enough, you'll find the facts:
>>
>> Requirements: in the head of some user manager, often a
>> ditzy one;
>> always one with "no spare time for talking about the database
>> again"; or worse, in a user committee who weren't able to agree
>> sufficiently to write anything down. Usable % done - 0%.
>>
>> Design: embodied only in the completed portion of database
>> itself,
>> if any. Usable % done - 0%.
>>
>> Implementation: in the head of the last developer who fled
>> screaming
>> into the night: 50%. in the garbage can: 40%; in the database
>> without a single comment and with meaningless labels and variable
>> names, and created without a design: 5% - Usable % done - 0%.
>>
>> Time to completion: most probable estimate: infinite,
>> because you'll
>> never be able to extract anything but a vague, hand-waving
>> description from that ditzy user manager or committee.
>>
>> Time before you flee screaming into the night like the
>> previous
>> several developers: depends on your constitution and how gladly
>> you suffer fools, but you won't even be well-started on getting
>> the Requirements in the stated one or two weeks. Depending on the
>> nervousness of whoever's holding the customer purse-strings, you
>> may be unceremoniously dumped for "exceeding the recruiter's
>> estimate" long before your patience runs out.
>>
>> Rate the recruiter is willing to pay you: up to $10 - 15
>> per hour.
>> I mean, what do you expect for someone with no more experience and
>> no better credentials than you bring to the table.
>>
>> Rate the recruiter is charging the customer: $100 - $150
>> per hour,
>> or more. I mean, what do they expect for the "Top Access Guy/Gal
>> in this Area"[/color]
>
> Brilliant post, Larry.
>
> It's not at all far off from the real world at all, not even really
> exaggerated.
>
> When these kinds of things cross my desk, I just tell them something
> like "$XX/hour, 18-100 hours." This usually scares the bad ones away
> as they can't imagine committing to the larger number.
>
> The usual situation is that someone describes the process as "really
> simple and straightforward ," not because it *is* simple and
> straightforward (they are in no position to judge), but because they
> *want* it to be simple and straightforward , and that's what they
> want to pay for it.
>
> Here's how one of those went. I'd seen a posting on a non-Access
> list:
>[color=green]
>> I need someone to help develop a small MS access project. Need a
>> project rate, so contact me via email with a resume and experience
>> with MS Access as well as availability this week and I will
>> provide details of the project.[/color]
>
> Without a detailed spec, I do not quote project rates.
>
> My rate is $70/hour.
>
> ===
> My next reply was:
>[color=green]
>> Thank you! Well, a chamber of commerce has asked me to basically
>> develop a complete Access form whereby one can:
>>
>> 1. Enter contact information
>> a. Normal fields include (but is not limited to) Company name,
>> Contact 1, contact 2, contact 3, address, phone, email, website,
>> membership date (for each contact), event participation (for each
>> contact), notes, board member/officer year (for each contact) --
>> I WILL SEND YOU ALL THE FIELDS WHEN WE ARE READY. b. Other more
>> advanced fields are drop downs which need to be editable by
>> another form to include options for membership status, business
>> type 2. Search information to display a report or print address
>> labels: a. By all fields using either one or many of the options
>>
>> Let me know what the cost and the date this could be completed.[/color]
>
> Well, that's not even close to being detailed enough to put a fixed
> price on it. I'd estimate it as 12-36 hours, but can't get any more
> specific about that unless there's more specific information,
> including the schema, any outside dependencies, any compatibility
> issues (do they want to do Word mail merges? will they be sending
> files in a particular format to a mailing house, etc.).
>
> I'm mostly available but have a few duties to accomplish in the next
> couple of weeks, but I work from home and can easily move things
> around in my work schedule to accommodate a project that's on the
> fast track.
>
> Mailing lists sound very easy. But they aren't. There are a whole
> host of issues that most people don't consider, and that I've been
> through many times and know are stumbling blocks. Here are some:
>
> 1. existing data -- is there any? Is it clean? Does it have dead
> addresses in it? Is it in a normalized format?
>
> 2. is the mailed entity in all cases an individual, or is it
> sometimes and organization and sometimes a person at an
> organization? Are there multiple people being mailed at a single
> address?
>
> 3. phone numbers and addresses: how normalized should this be? How
> useful is normalization to them for what they are going to be using
> it for? Is it going to serve as their main phone book/address book?
> If so, phone numbers and addresses should be normalized to make
> lookups accurate and efficient.
>
> 4. do you need historical membership information? Or just the most
> recent? If so, the membership date has to go in a separate table,
> rather than just being a field in the member record.
>
> 5. what exactly gets tracked in the events table? How many events
> are involved? Are they recurring or ad hoc?
>
> 6. besides labels, what reports do they need? Phone book printout?
> Address book printout? Event attendance? Membership?
>
> 7. how do they handle membership? Does everybody expire once a year?
> What do they do with lapsed members? Do they need to generate
> reminders for mailing to the members who are renewing?
>
> That's just a few that occur to me off the top of my head.
>
> I did a simple membership/event tracking app for a client last year
> (I note that I forgot about it when I last updated my resume), and
> the biggest problem I had with the project was getting the client to
> decide what they wanted to do. It wasn't a matter of them
> understanding the options, but the problem was that they couldn't
> make decisions. They also had about 3K records in their legacy
> membership list, and they needed to do a data cleanup before they
> could start using the new application (it wouldn't have mattered if
> the data were messy, but they wanted it cleaned up first), and they
> ended up splitting up the list editing among volunteers using Excel
> spreadsheets, and I ended up having to program an import routine to
> take the Excel spreadsheets and process them against the existing
> data records. This seemed trivial in the beginning, but ended up
> taking up a great deal of time.
>
> So, before I can say anything useful about the actual price, lots of
> issues need to be resolved.
>
> If you'd like me to meet with the client to iron these things out,
> that's fine. That makes it much easier for me to get a feel for what
> target we're aiming at. But, if you want to handle all the client
> interaction, that's fine, too.
>
> ===
> And that resulted in this:
>
> You wrote:[color=green]
>> That would be too much.[/color]
>
> With such a nebulous project description, it's impossible for me to
> quote anything that doesn't include a huge CYA factor. Anyone with
> any experience in this kind of thing will tell you the same thing.
>
> If you hire someone cheap and what your client ends up with never
> really works properly, I'm still available to fix it -- much of my
> work is precisely that, fixing up failed Access development
> projects.
>
> Good luck finding someone competent for less than what I quoted.
>
> ===
>
> I was perfectly happy not to get the job, as it was clearly a case
> of someone who hadn't a clue what the hell was going on.
>
> --
> David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
> usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/[/color]

[rkc]

Re: DB developing

Larry Linson wrote:[color=blue]
> I'm determinig categories of projects to refer to Lyle. In this thread, I've
> found I can add all those projects with deeply nested Withs. They go right
> in there along with the DAPs and ADPs with ADO.
>
> And, to someone who posted that the same is true for any nesting, I
> disagree -- it's the same only if the nesting omits part of the definition
> or statement. It could have been worse I suppose... each level of nesting
> could be applied to the earlier levels so there would be, potentially, a
> long string of omitted names for you to go back and figure it out.[/color]

If you actually think that code has deeply nested With blocks
you're getting too old to read code or you didn't bother to look
at it at all.

[Lyle Fairfield]

Re: DB developing

Larry Linson wrote:
[color=blue]
> It could have been worse I suppose... each level of nesting
> could be applied to the earlier levels so there would be, potentially, a
> long string of omitted names for you to go back and figure it out.[/color]

Like this?

Private Sub This()
With DBEngine
With .Workspaces
With .Item(0)
With .Databases
With .Item(0)
MsgBox .Name
End With
End With
End With
End With
End With
End Sub

Of course, you'd also have "to go back and figure out" that most (all?)
collections have a hidden .Item Property.

With This
I have no problem
End With

[Larry Linson]

Re: DB developing

Surely, Lyle, you can have all my dataases with that many levels of nesting.

"Lyle Fairfield" <lylefairfield@ aim.com> wrote in message
news:1147520652 .269443.257060@ j73g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com.. .[color=blue]
> Larry Linson wrote:
>[color=green]
>> It could have been worse I suppose... each level of nesting
>> could be applied to the earlier levels so there would be, potentially, a
>> long string of omitted names for you to go back and figure it out.[/color]
>
> Like this?
>
> Private Sub This()
> With DBEngine
> With .Workspaces
> With .Item(0)
> With .Databases
> With .Item(0)
> MsgBox .Name
> End With
> End With
> End With
> End With
> End With
> End Sub
>
> Of course, you'd also have "to go back and figure out" that most (all?)
> collections have a hidden .Item Property.
>
> With This
> I have no problem
> End With
>[/color]