business objects vs. datasets

**RobinS** · Feb 8 '07, 12:15 AM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

Hi Penelope Dramas,

If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book coming
out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows exactly how to
do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's called "Doing
Objects in VB2005".

You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with business
objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more control over
it.

And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly
typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data layer
passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.

She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and removes
the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. I'm not
exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to follow up on to
find out.

So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information
will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, I'm
sure.

Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
-----------------------------------------------
"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in message
news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...

Hello,
>
I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6
application.
>
I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of
questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
data-centric around MSDE database.
>
Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
datasets/datatables for my classes?
>
This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way.
>
Custom Bus. Object:
- Longer time to develop/test it.
- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
- Extensible.
>
Datasets
- Faster/Easier.
- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>
I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq
initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 years
to adjust it to current framework.
>
Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>
>
Thanks ...
>

**Spam Catcher** · Feb 8 '07, 12:25 AM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl:

Custom Bus. Object:
- Longer time to develop/test it.
- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
- Extensible.
>
Datasets
- Faster/Easier.
- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.

Take a look at LLBLGen. LLBLGen Pro is a third party DAL which is very good
at auto-generating custom business objects.

The developer of LLBLGen Pro is planning to make it LINQ compatible too.

So in a sense, you get the feature of LINQ now - and with future linq
compatibility!

**sloan** · Feb 8 '07, 04:15 PM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

Go here

http://sholliday.spaces.live.com/blog/

6/5/2006
Custom Objects and Tiered Development II // 2.0

and

5/24/2006
Custom Objects/Collections and Tiered Development

The second one is 1.1, however.

Run some times to see the difference between populating your custom business
objects with an IDataReader vs populating strong DataSets.
You ~~will be surprised.

I mention a MS KB at the bottom on the 1.1 article "bird's eye view". Read
that thing several times.

On a system I need to upkeep, I 99% of the time go with Custom Objects now.

On reports, I go back to strong datasets.

"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in message
news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...

Hello,
>
I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6
application.
>
I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of
questions regarding data access as this application is heavily

data-centric

around MSDE database.
>
Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
datasets/datatables for my classes?
>
This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way.
>
Custom Bus. Object:
- Longer time to develop/test it.
- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
- Extensible.
>
Datasets
- Faster/Easier.
- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>
I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq
initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 years

to

adjust it to current framework.
>
Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>
>
Thanks ...
>
>

**Penelope Dramas** · Feb 8 '07, 09:45 PM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming out.

I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked
into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it myself
and learn it better.

Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good or
there's no reason to panic :) ?

"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:UcOdnelJlZ s09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_ veinZ2d@comcast .com...

Hi Penelope Dramas,
>
If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book
coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows exactly
how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's called
"Doing Objects in VB2005".
>
You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with business
objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more control over
it.
>
And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly
typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data layer
passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.
>
She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and removes
the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. I'm not
exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to follow up on
to find out.
>
So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information
will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, I'm
sure.
>
Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
-----------------------------------------------
"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
message news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...

>Hello,
>>
>I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6
>application.
>>
>I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of
>questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
>data-centric around MSDE database.
>>
>Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
>datasets/datatables for my classes?
>>
>This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way.
>>
>Custom Bus. Object:
>- Longer time to develop/test it.
>- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
>- Extensible.
>>
>Datasets
>- Faster/Easier.
>- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>>
>I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq
>initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 years
>to adjust it to current framework.
>>
>Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>>
>>
>Thanks ...
>>

>
>

**RobinS** · Feb 9 '07, 07:45 AM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's book
online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of it.
Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21.

http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual...e=UTF8&s=books

I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least not in
the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what they will
do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it for huge
amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest,
considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable
alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data back
and forth to SQLServer!

Robin S.
---------------------------------------
"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in message
news:uefNZl8SHH A.388@TK2MSFTNG P04.phx.gbl...

Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming
out.
>
I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked
into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it
myself and learn it better.
>
Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good
or there's no reason to panic :) ?
>
>
>
"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:UcOdnelJlZ s09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_ veinZ2d@comcast .com...

>Hi Penelope Dramas,
>>
>If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book
>coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows
>exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's
>called "Doing Objects in VB2005".
>>
>You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with
>business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more
>control over it.
>>
>And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly
>typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data layer
>passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.
>>
>She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and
>removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. I'm
>not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to follow
>up on to find out.
>>
>So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information
>will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, I'm
>sure.
>>
>Robin S.
>Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
>-----------------------------------------------
>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
>message news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...

>>Hello,
>>>
>>I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6
>>application .
>>>
>>I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of
>>questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
>>data-centric around MSDE database.
>>>
>>Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
>>datasets/datatables for my classes?
>>>
>>This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way.
>>>
>>Custom Bus. Object:
>>- Longer time to develop/test it.
>>- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
>>- Extensible.
>>>
>>Datasets
>>- Faster/Easier.
>>- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>>>
>>I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq
>>initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3
>>years to adjust it to current framework.
>>>
>>Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>>>
>>>
>>Thanks ...
>>>

>>
>>

>
>

**RobinS** · Feb 9 '07, 07:45 AM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

You can also check out Rockford Lhotka's books if you want to know more
about Business Object ; he's very well-known in the field. I have looked at
them, but not read them. Deborah's book seemed a lot more "hands-on" to me,
and less theory.

Just my opinion.
Robin S.
---------------------------------
"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:qbWdnWcCwK HTvlHYnZ2dnUVZ_ syunZ2d@comcast .com...

If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's book
online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of it.
Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21.
>
http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual...e=UTF8&s=books
>
I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least not in
the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what they
will do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it
for huge amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best
interest, considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a
viable alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer
data back and forth to SQLServer!
>
Robin S.
---------------------------------------
"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
message news:uefNZl8SHH A.388@TK2MSFTNG P04.phx.gbl...

>Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming
>out.
>>
>I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked
>into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it
>myself and learn it better.
>>
>Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good
>or there's no reason to panic :) ?
>>
>>
>>
>"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
>news:UcOdnelJl Zs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ _veinZ2d@comcas t.com...

>>Hi Penelope Dramas,
>>>
>>If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book
>>coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows
>>exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's
>>called "Doing Objects in VB2005".
>>>
>>You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with
>>business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more
>>control over it.
>>>
>>And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly
>>typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data
>>layer passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.
>>>
>>She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and
>>removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures.
>>I'm not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to
>>follow up on to find out.
>>>
>>So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information
>>will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion,
>>I'm sure.
>>>
>>Robin S.
>>Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
>>-----------------------------------------------
>>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
>>message news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...
>>>Hello,
>>>>
>>>I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6
>>>applicatio n.
>>>>
>>>I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of
>>>questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
>>>data-centric around MSDE database.
>>>>
>>>Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
>>>datasets/datatables for my classes?
>>>>
>>>This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way.
>>>>
>>>Custom Bus. Object:
>>>- Longer time to develop/test it.
>>>- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
>>>- Extensible.
>>>>
>>>Datasets
>>>- Faster/Easier.
>>>- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>>>>
>>>I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq
>>>initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3
>>>years to adjust it to current framework.
>>>>
>>>Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Thanks ...
>>>>
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>

**=?Utf-8?B?SmFzb24gVmVybWlsbGlvbg==?=** · Feb 10 '07, 03:45 AM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

Also, If you don't have a subscription to Safari, your local libray might.
I checked my county libray here in CA and I can get access to Safari online
at home.

Jason Vermillion

"RobinS" wrote:

If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's book
online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of it.
Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21.
>
http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual...e=UTF8&s=books
>
I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least not in
the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what they will
do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it for huge
amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest,
considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable
alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data back
and forth to SQLServer!
>
Robin S.
---------------------------------------
"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in message
news:uefNZl8SHH A.388@TK2MSFTNG P04.phx.gbl...

Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming
out.

I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked
into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it
myself and learn it better.

Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good
or there's no reason to panic :) ?

"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:UcOdnelJlZ s09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_ veinZ2d@comcast .com...

Hi Penelope Dramas,
>
If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book
coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows
exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's
called "Doing Objects in VB2005".
>
You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with
business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more
control over it.
>
And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly
typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data layer
passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.
>
She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and
removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. I'm
not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to follow
up on to find out.
>
So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information
will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, I'm
sure.
>
Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
-----------------------------------------------
"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
message news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...
>Hello,
>>
>I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6
>application.
>>
>I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of
>questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
>data-centric around MSDE database.
>>
>Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
>datasets/datatables for my classes?
>>
>This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way.
>>
>Custom Bus. Object:
>- Longer time to develop/test it.
>- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
>- Extensible.
>>
>Datasets
>- Faster/Easier.
>- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>>
>I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq
>initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3
>years to adjust it to current framework.
>>
>Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>>
>>
>Thanks ...
>>
>
>

>
>
>

**RobinS** · Feb 10 '07, 06:55 AM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

Oh, that's really cool. Is that CA as in California, or CA as in Canada? If
it's California, I'm heading down to the library to see if mine has that
capability.

Robin S.
-------------------------------
"Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermillio n@discussions.m icrosoft.comwro te in
message news:89904698-E254-41C5-9B01-4E70BF32B5A5@mi crosoft.com...

>
Also, If you don't have a subscription to Safari, your local libray
might.
I checked my county libray here in CA and I can get access to Safari
online
at home.
>
Jason Vermillion
>
"RobinS" wrote:

>If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's book
>online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of
>it.
>Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21.
>>
>http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual...e=UTF8&s=books
>>
>I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least not
>in
>the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what they
>will
>do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it for
>huge
>amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest,
>considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable
>alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data
>back
>and forth to SQLServer!
>>
>Robin S.
>---------------------------------------
>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
>message
>news:uefNZl8SH HA.388@TK2MSFTN GP04.phx.gbl...

Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's
coming
out.
>
I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already
looked
into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it
myself and learn it better.
>
Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for
good
or there's no reason to panic :) ?
>
>
>
"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:UcOdnelJlZ s09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_ veinZ2d@comcast .com...
>Hi Penelope Dramas,
>>
>If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book
>coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows
>exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology.
>It's
>called "Doing Objects in VB2005".
>>
>You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with
>business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have
>more
>control over it.
>>
>And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses
>strongly
>typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data
>layer
>passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.
>>
>She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and
>removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures.
>I'm
>not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to
>follow
>up on to find out.
>>
>So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this
>information
>will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion,
>I'm
>sure.
>>
>Robin S.
>Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
>-----------------------------------------------
>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
>message news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...
>>Hello,
>>>
>>I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6
>>application .
>>>
>>I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of
>>questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
>>data-centric around MSDE database.
>>>
>>Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
>>datasets/datatables for my classes?
>>>
>>This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct
>>way.
>>>
>>Custom Bus. Object:
>>- Longer time to develop/test it.
>>- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
>>- Extensible.
>>>
>>Datasets
>>- Faster/Easier.
>>- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>>>
>>I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq
>>initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3
>>years to adjust it to current framework.
>>>
>>Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>>>
>>>
>>Thanks ...
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

>>
>>
>>

**Cor Ligthert [MVP]** · Feb 10 '07, 10:05 AM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

Penelope,

If you think about buying Deborah's book, than certainly don't forget to buy
the books from David and Bill (Sceppa and Vaughn). The last two are .Net
specialists as long as .Net exist.

Cor

"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom schreef in
bericht news:uefNZl8SHH A.388@TK2MSFTNG P04.phx.gbl...

Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming
out.
>
I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked
into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it myself
and learn it better.
>
Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good or
there's no reason to panic :) ?
>
>
>
"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:UcOdnelJlZ s09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_ veinZ2d@comcast .com...

>Hi Penelope Dramas,
>>
>If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book
>coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows
>exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's
>called "Doing Objects in VB2005".
>>
>You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with business
>objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more control
>over it.
>>
>And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly
>typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data layer
>passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.
>>
>She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and removes
>the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. I'm not
>exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to follow up on
>to find out.
>>
>So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information
>will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, I'm
>sure.
>>
>Robin S.
>Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
>-----------------------------------------------
>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
>message news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...

>>Hello,
>>>
>>I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6
>>application .
>>>
>>I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of
>>questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
>>data-centric around MSDE database.
>>>
>>Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
>>datasets/datatables for my classes?
>>>
>>This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way.
>>>
>>Custom Bus. Object:
>>- Longer time to develop/test it.
>>- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
>>- Extensible.
>>>
>>Datasets
>>- Faster/Easier.
>>- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>>>
>>I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq
>>initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3
>>years to adjust it to current framework.
>>>
>>Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>>>
>>>
>>Thanks ...
>>>

>>
>>

>
>

**=?Utf-8?B?SmFzb24gVmVybWlsbGlvbg==?=** · Feb 10 '07, 02:15 PM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

I'm in California south of san francisco.

I'm not a big fan of ebooks but it let's you read through a book and see if
it is worth picking up a paper copy.

Jason Vermillion

"RobinS" wrote:

Oh, that's really cool. Is that CA as in California, or CA as in Canada? If
it's California, I'm heading down to the library to see if mine has that
capability.
>
Robin S.
-------------------------------
"Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermillio n@discussions.m icrosoft.comwro te in
message news:89904698-E254-41C5-9B01-4E70BF32B5A5@mi crosoft.com...

Also, If you don't have a subscription to Safari, your local libray
might.
I checked my county libray here in CA and I can get access to Safari
online
at home.

Jason Vermillion

"RobinS" wrote:

If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's book
online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of
it.
Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21.
>
http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual...e=UTF8&s=books
>
I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least not
in
the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what they
will
do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it for
huge
amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest,
considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable
alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data
back
and forth to SQLServer!
>
Robin S.
---------------------------------------
"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
message
news:uefNZl8SHH A.388@TK2MSFTNG P04.phx.gbl...
Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's
coming
out.

I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already
looked
into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it
myself and learn it better.

Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for
good
or there's no reason to panic :) ?

"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:UcOdnelJlZ s09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_ veinZ2d@comcast .com...
Hi Penelope Dramas,
>
If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book
coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows
exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology.
It's
called "Doing Objects in VB2005".
>
You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with
business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have
more
control over it.
>
And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses
strongly
typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data
layer
passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.
>
She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and
removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures.
I'm
not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to
follow
up on to find out.
>
So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this
information
will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion,
I'm
sure.
>
Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
-----------------------------------------------
"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
message news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...
>Hello,
>>
>I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6
>application.
>>
>I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of
>questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
>data-centric around MSDE database.
>>
>Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
>datasets/datatables for my classes?
>>
>This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct
>way.
>>
>Custom Bus. Object:
>- Longer time to develop/test it.
>- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
>- Extensible.
>>
>Datasets
>- Faster/Easier.
>- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>>
>I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq
>initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3
>years to adjust it to current framework.
>>
>Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>>
>>
>Thanks ...
>>
>
>

>
>
>

>
>
>

**RobinS** · Feb 10 '07, 06:15 PM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

Cool. I live in the East Bay. You're right, it's nice to be able to see the
book before you buy it, and I'd rather have a paper copy that I can put
markers in, and write in. Thanks for the tip.

Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
---------------------------------------------------------
"Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermillio n@discussions.m icrosoft.comwro te in
message news:FC06DFF4-D1D4-449C-8CCA-4E4F90457F0C@mi crosoft.com...

>
I'm in California south of san francisco.
>
I'm not a big fan of ebooks but it let's you read through a book and see
if
it is worth picking up a paper copy.
>
Jason Vermillion
>
"RobinS" wrote:
>

>Oh, that's really cool. Is that CA as in California, or CA as in Canada?
>If
>it's California, I'm heading down to the library to see if mine has that
>capability.
>>
>Robin S.
>-------------------------------
>"Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermillio n@discussions.m icrosoft.comwro te in
>message news:89904698-E254-41C5-9B01-4E70BF32B5A5@mi crosoft.com...

>
Also, If you don't have a subscription to Safari, your local libray
might.
I checked my county libray here in CA and I can get access to Safari
online
at home.
>
Jason Vermillion
>
"RobinS" wrote:
>If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's
>book
>online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of
>it.
>Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21.
>>
>http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual...e=UTF8&s=books
>>
>I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least
>not
>in
>the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what
>they
>will
>do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it
>for
>huge
>amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest,
>considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable
>alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data
>back
>and forth to SQLServer!
>>
>Robin S.
>---------------------------------------
>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
>message
>news:uefNZl8SH HA.388@TK2MSFTN GP04.phx.gbl...
Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's
coming
out.
>
I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already
looked
into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it
myself and learn it better.
>
Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for
good
or there's no reason to panic :) ?
>
>
>
"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:UcOdnelJlZ s09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_ veinZ2d@comcast .com...
>Hi Penelope Dramas,
>>
>If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new
>book
>coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows
>exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology.
>It's
>called "Doing Objects in VB2005".
>>
>You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with
>business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have
>more
>control over it.
>>
>And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses
>strongly
>typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data
>layer
>passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.
>>
>She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and
>removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored
>procedures.
>I'm
>not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to
>follow
>up on to find out.
>>
>So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this
>information
>will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an
>opinion,
>I'm
>sure.
>>
>Robin S.
>Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
>-----------------------------------------------
>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote
>in
>message news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...
>>Hello,
>>>
>>I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old
>>VB6
>>application .
>>>
>>I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple
>>of
>>questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
>>data-centric around MSDE database.
>>>
>>Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
>>datasets/datatables for my classes?
>>>
>>This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct
>>way.
>>>
>>Custom Bus. Object:
>>- Longer time to develop/test it.
>>- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
>>- Extensible.
>>>
>>Datasets
>>- Faster/Easier.
>>- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>>>
>>I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing
>>WPF/Linq
>>initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in
>>2-3
>>years to adjust it to current framework.
>>>
>>Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>>>
>>>
>>Thanks ...
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>>
>>
>>

>>
>>
>>

**RobinS** · Feb 10 '07, 06:15 PM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

Just to clarify, they are data guys, not Business Objects guys. But both of
their books are certainly exemplary.

Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
-----------------------------------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstname @planet.nlwrote in message
news:O0CNDkPTHH A.996@TK2MSFTNG P02.phx.gbl...

Penelope,
>
If you think about buying Deborah's book, than certainly don't forget to
buy the books from David and Bill (Sceppa and Vaughn). The last two are
.Net specialists as long as .Net exist.
>
Cor
>
"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom schreef in
bericht news:uefNZl8SHH A.388@TK2MSFTNG P04.phx.gbl...

>Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming
>out.
>>
>I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked
>into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it
>myself and learn it better.
>>
>Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good
>or there's no reason to panic :) ?
>>
>>
>>
>"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
>news:UcOdnelJl Zs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ _veinZ2d@comcas t.com...

>>Hi Penelope Dramas,
>>>
>>If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book
>>coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows
>>exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's
>>called "Doing Objects in VB2005".
>>>
>>You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with
>>business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more
>>control over it.
>>>
>>And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly
>>typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data
>>layer passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.
>>>
>>She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and
>>removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures.
>>I'm not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to
>>follow up on to find out.
>>>
>>So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information
>>will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion,
>>I'm sure.
>>>
>>Robin S.
>>Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
>>-----------------------------------------------
>>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
>>message news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...
>>>Hello,
>>>>
>>>I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6
>>>applicatio n.
>>>>
>>>I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of
>>>questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
>>>data-centric around MSDE database.
>>>>
>>>Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
>>>datasets/datatables for my classes?
>>>>
>>>This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way.
>>>>
>>>Custom Bus. Object:
>>>- Longer time to develop/test it.
>>>- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
>>>- Extensible.
>>>>
>>>Datasets
>>>- Faster/Easier.
>>>- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>>>>
>>>I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq
>>>initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3
>>>years to adjust it to current framework.
>>>>
>>>Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Thanks ...
>>>>
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>

**Cor Ligthert [MVP]** · Feb 10 '07, 08:15 PM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

Robin,

Just to clarify, they are data guys, not Business Objects guys. But both
of their books are certainly exemplary.

Read the subject, you never can compare with only one factor.

:-)

Cor

"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:cpKdnVkLae BslVPYnZ2dnUVZ_ revnZ2d@comcast .com...

Just to clarify, they are data guys, not Business Objects guys. But both
of their books are certainly exemplary.
>
Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
-----------------------------------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstname @planet.nlwrote in message
news:O0CNDkPTHH A.996@TK2MSFTNG P02.phx.gbl...

>Penelope,
>>
>If you think about buying Deborah's book, than certainly don't forget to
>buy the books from David and Bill (Sceppa and Vaughn). The last two are
>.Net specialists as long as .Net exist.
>>
>Cor
>>
>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom schreef in
>bericht news:uefNZl8SHH A.388@TK2MSFTNG P04.phx.gbl...

>>Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming
>>out.
>>>
>>I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked
>>into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it
>>myself and learn it better.
>>>
>>Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good
>>or there's no reason to panic :) ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
>>news:UcOdnelJ lZs09VfYnZ2dnUV Z_veinZ2d@comca st.com...
>>>Hi Penelope Dramas,
>>>>
>>>If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book
>>>coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows
>>>exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's
>>>called "Doing Objects in VB2005".
>>>>
>>>You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with
>>>business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more
>>>control over it.
>>>>
>>>And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly
>>>typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data
>>>layer passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.
>>>>
>>>She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and
>>>removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures.
>>>I'm not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to
>>>follow up on to find out.
>>>>
>>>So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information
>>>will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion,
>>>I'm sure.
>>>>
>>>Robin S.
>>>Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
>>>-----------------------------------------------
>>>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
>>>message news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...
>>>>Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6
>>>>application .
>>>>>
>>>>I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of
>>>>questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
>>>>data-centric around MSDE database.
>>>>>
>>>>Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
>>>>datasets/datatables for my classes?
>>>>>
>>>>This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way.
>>>>>
>>>>Custom Bus. Object:
>>>>- Longer time to develop/test it.
>>>>- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
>>>>- Extensible.
>>>>>
>>>>Datasets
>>>>- Faster/Easier.
>>>>- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>>>>>
>>>>I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq
>>>>initiativ e and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3
>>>>years to adjust it to current framework.
>>>>>
>>>>Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Thanks ...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>

>>
>>

>
>

**Bruce W. Darby** · Feb 10 '07, 09:25 PM

Re: business objects vs. datasets

Robin,

When I purchased my copy of Start to Finish Visual Basic, I got a free 30
day trial of the Safari system. Did you not receive that with your copy? And
like yourself, I do prefer the paper copy... more than likely because I'm
old and set in my ways. hehehe

Bruce

"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
news:8uidnUKtF9 onlVPYnZ2dnUVZ_ r6vnZ2d@comcast .com...

Cool. I live in the East Bay. You're right, it's nice to be able to see
the book before you buy it, and I'd rather have a paper copy that I can
put markers in, and write in. Thanks for the tip.
>
Robin S.
Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
---------------------------------------------------------
"Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermillio n@discussions.m icrosoft.comwro te in
message news:FC06DFF4-D1D4-449C-8CCA-4E4F90457F0C@mi crosoft.com...

>>
>I'm in California south of san francisco.
>>
>I'm not a big fan of ebooks but it let's you read through a book and see
>if
>it is worth picking up a paper copy.
>>
>Jason Vermillion
>>
>"RobinS" wrote:
>>

>>Oh, that's really cool. Is that CA as in California, or CA as in Canada?
>>If
>>it's California, I'm heading down to the library to see if mine has that
>>capability.
>>>
>>Robin S.
>>-------------------------------
>>"Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermillio n@discussions.m icrosoft.comwro te in
>>message news:89904698-E254-41C5-9B01-4E70BF32B5A5@mi crosoft.com...
>>
>Also, If you don't have a subscription to Safari, your local libray
>might.
>I checked my county libray here in CA and I can get access to Safari
>online
>at home.
>>
>Jason Vermillion
>>
>"RobinS" wrote:
>>If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's
>>book
>>online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of
>>it.
>>Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21.
>>>
>>http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual...e=UTF8&s=books
>>>
>>I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least
>>not
>>in
>>the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what
>>they
>>will
>>do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it
>>for
>>huge
>>amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest,
>>considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable
>>alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data
>>back
>>and forth to SQLServer!
>>>
>>Robin S.
>>---------------------------------------
>>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote in
>>message
>>news:uefNZl8S HHA.388@TK2MSFT NGP04.phx.gbl.. .
>Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's
>coming
>out.
>>
>I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already
>looked
>into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it
>myself and learn it better.
>>
>Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for
>good
>or there's no reason to panic :) ?
>>
>>
>>
>"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam. yah.nonewrote in message
>news:UcOdnelJl Zs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ _veinZ2d@comcas t.com...
>>Hi Penelope Dramas,
>>>
>>If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new
>>book
>>coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows
>>exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology.
>>It's
>>called "Doing Objects in VB2005".
>>>
>>You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with
>>business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have
>>more
>>control over it.
>>>
>>And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses
>>strongly
>>typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data
>>layer
>>passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI.
>>>
>>She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and
>>removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored
>>procedures.
>>I'm
>>not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to
>>follow
>>up on to find out.
>>>
>>So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this
>>information
>>will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an
>>opinion,
>>I'm
>>sure.
>>>
>>Robin S.
>>Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto.
>>-----------------------------------------------
>>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdra masATpro-transportDOTcom wrote
>>in
>>message news:eBhk8WwSHH A.4076@TK2MSFTN GP05.phx.gbl...
>>>Hello,
>>>>
>>>I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old
>>>VB6
>>>applicatio n.
>>>>
>>>I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple
>>>of
>>>questions regarding data access as this application is heavily
>>>data-centric around MSDE database.
>>>>
>>>Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend
>>>datasets/datatables for my classes?
>>>>
>>>This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct
>>>way.
>>>>
>>>Custom Bus. Object:
>>>- Longer time to develop/test it.
>>>- Loosely coupled with DataLayer.
>>>- Extensible.
>>>>
>>>Datasets
>>>- Faster/Easier.
>>>- Tightly coupled with DataLayer.
>>>>
>>>I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing
>>>WPF/Linq
>>>initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in
>>>2-3
>>>years to adjust it to current framework.
>>>>
>>>Would like to hear your opinion and experiences...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Thanks ...
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

>
>

business objects vs. datasets

business objects vs. datasets

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