To VB or not to VB?

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Re: To VB or not to VB?

Zack,
[color=blue]
>Things like "static" veriables and functions are called "shared" in VB.NET,
> because the keyword static was already used in VB6. VB.NET is loaded
> with these kinds of little idiocies.[/color]

Before you write this, have you ever thought what Static and Shared mean.

That the C language uses a lot of keywords which are not completely covering
the subject anymore does not mean that it is the right terminologie.

If a donkey tells you that he is an horse does not mean that he is an horse.

And with this trying to answer your complete question.

Cor

[Jonathan West]

Re: To VB or not to VB?


<Matthew.Gertz@ feedback.micros oft.com> wrote in message
news:%23KlyiGlE GHA.2072@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
[color=blue]
> It's my hope (and belief) that VB .NET stands as a language in its own
> right, both as compared with VB6 and C#, and is not just some weird fusion
> of VB6 and .NET. But, that's for y'all to decide, I expect... :-)[/color]


Do you regard VB.NET as a new language, or as a new version of VB? I'm just
curious as to your view of this.


--
Regards
Jonathan West

[Mythran]

Re: To VB or not to VB?


"_AnonCowar d" <abcdef@uvwxyz. com> wrote in message
news:Xiovf.2991 $iQ.485@tornado .southeast.rr.c om...[color=blue]
>
> Or how about this:
>
>
> If var1 = 1 Then
> For Index = 0 to 10
> If var2 = Index Then
> DoThis
> Else
> Select Case var3
> Case "A"
> DoThisToo
> Case "B"
> DoThisInstead
> End Select
> End If
> Next
> End If
>
> compared to:
>
> if(var1 == 1){
> for(Index = 0; Index < 11; Index++){
> if(var2 == Index){
> DoThis();
> }else{
> switch(var3){
> case "A":
> DoThisToo();
> break;
> case "B":
> DoThisInstead() ;
> break;
> }
> }
> }
> }
>
>[/color]

Depends on how you write it, and personal preference/familiarity. I'm not
sure about VB.Net 2005 ... but in 2003 you couldn't do the following with VB
w/o inner loops:

for (int i = 0, j = 1, k = 2; i < 10; i++, ++j, k++) {
...
}

:P Sure, that may not look pretty...but there have been times, when it's a
lot easier / cleaner to do it like this, than use 4 or 5 more lines
(included indentation) to make the inner loops...

Anywho, I'm not bashing VB.Net. Just saying that there really are fine
points in C# as well as VB and I would recommend going with learning the
framework while learning both languages. Once you learn one, the other is
pretty darn easy to understand :)

Mythran

[_AnonCoward]

Re: To VB or not to VB?


"Mythran" <kip_potter@hot mail.comREMOVET RAIL> wrote in message
news:O6o797tEGH A.2300@TK2MSFTN GP15.phx.gbl...
:
: "_AnonCowar d" <abcdef@uvwxyz. com> wrote in message
: news:Xiovf.2991 $iQ.485@tornado .southeast.rr.c om...
: >
: > Or how about this:
: >
: >
: > If var1 = 1 Then
: > For Index = 0 to 10
: > If var2 = Index Then
: > DoThis
: > Else
: > Select Case var3
: > Case "A"
: > DoThisToo
: > Case "B"
: > DoThisInstead
: > End Select
: > End If
: > Next
: > End If
: >
: > compared to:
: >
: > if(var1 == 1){
: > for(Index = 0; Index < 11; Index++){
: > if(var2 == Index){
: > DoThis();
: > }else{
: > switch(var3){
: > case "A":
: > DoThisToo();
: > break;
: > case "B":
: > DoThisInstead() ;
: > break;
: > }
: > }
: > }
: > }
: >
: >
:
: Depends on how you write it, and personal preference/familiarity. I'm not
: sure about VB.Net 2005 ... but in 2003 you couldn't do the following with
: VB w/o inner loops:
:
: for (int i = 0, j = 1, k = 2; i < 10; i++, ++j, k++) {
: ...
: }
:
: :P Sure, that may not look pretty...but there have been times, when it's
: a lot easier / cleaner to do it like this, than use 4 or 5 more lines
: (included indentation) to make the inner loops...
:
: Anywho, I'm not bashing VB.Net. Just saying that there really are fine
: points in C# as well as VB and I would recommend going with learning the
: framework while learning both languages. Once you learn one, the other is
: pretty darn easy to understand :)
:
: Mythran


I don't dispute any of that in the least. I prefer VB.net simply because I
come from a VB6 background, no other reason. I can work with C# and even
Java if it were to come down to it (and to be honest, your example is
foreign enough to me that I wouldn't have thought to use it - I would have
nested the loops just like I would in VB; give me enough exposure to the
language in the future and that might change).


For me, the difficulty in converting to VB.net was in learning the
framework - I was already reasonably well versed in the OOP way of doing
things and once I got a handle on the framework, I was off and running. I
saw, and I still see, no reason to be forced to abandon my current language
skills in order to advance in my career. MS was smart to accommodate the VB
programmers when it rolled out .net - I'm convinced the effort would have
been a failure if they hadn't. At the very least, it would have been much
less successful - I don't think there would have been enough Java converts
to C# by themselves to make .net viable in the long run (but then, what do I
know?).


None of the CLR languages are 'better' than the others in any absolute way
and I agree it is a good idea to have at least a basic understanding of more
than just one particular language. If I ever find myself in a C# shop, I
will embrace their efforts gladly and jump right in. I'll be somewhat at a
disadvantage at first, but that won't last as I'm a pretty quick study. I
just get annoyed when language bigots spout off about VB when they clearly
don't have a clue as to what they are talking about.


Ralf
--
--
----------------------------------------------------------
* ^~^ ^~^ *
* _ {~ ~} {~ ~} _ *
* /_``>*< >*<''_\ *
* (\--_)++) (++(_--/) *
----------------------------------------------------------
There are no advanced students in Aikido - there are only
competent beginners. There are no advanced techniques -
only the correct application of basic principles.

[Brad Rogers]

Re: To VB or not to VB?

Yes, Im okay with that. But what matters is the question about whether or
not the company is in business for real, or its just people hanging around
like some hobby.


"Joseph Ferris" <joseph.ferris@ gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136490870 .047032.212440@ g44g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com.. .[color=blue]
>
> Brad Rogers wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Please share my comments with him/her.[/color]
>
> For the sheer entertainment value, maybe he/she should be invited here
> for a "group discussion"? ;-)
>
> Joseph
>[/color]

[m.posseth]

Re: To VB or not to VB?

Hmm think think ......

analogy

The wannabe programmer tells you he is a "reall" programmer cause he uses C#
but is he / she actually a programmer when he / she comes with these odd
statements ??


by the way

static

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_variable#Static_Variables_as_Class_Variables

the static variable of VB fits the explanation

"Some languages allow functions to retain the value of variables between
calls, so that the function can preserve its state if necessary. For
example, with a static variable a function could record the number of times
it has been executed using an internal counter. This would only otherwise be
possible using global variables or an external storage method, like a file
on disk."



regards

Michel Posseth [MCP]





"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstname @planet.nl> schreef in bericht
news:%232i67QqE GHA.532@TK2MSFT NGP15.phx.gbl.. .[color=blue]
> Zack,
>[color=green]
>>Things like "static" veriables and functions are called "shared" in
>>VB.NET,
>> because the keyword static was already used in VB6. VB.NET is loaded
>> with these kinds of little idiocies.[/color]
>
> Before you write this, have you ever thought what Static and Shared mean.
>
> That the C language uses a lot of keywords which are not completely
> covering the subject anymore does not mean that it is the right
> terminologie.
>
> If a donkey tells you that he is an horse does not mean that he is an
> horse.
>
> And with this trying to answer your complete question.
>
> Cor
>
>[/color]

[m.posseth]

Re: To VB or not to VB?

some nice comparissons ( also note the link 10 reassons why C# should be
better )

http://www.vbrad.com/pf.asp?p=source/src_top_10_vb.htm

I'm surprised how easy it was for me to pick up C# . ( as my second choice
:-) ) My advice ... when you can, just work with both. . All it can do is
help and make you a better and more wanted programmer.

in a big project i currently have ( remoting BLS server ) i use both as for
some situations the examples and docu are much better in one of the 2
languages



regards



Michel Posseth [MCP]




<zacks@construc tion-imaging.com> schreef in bericht
news:1136469922 .817285.39500@g 43g2000cwa.goog legroups.com...[color=blue]
>A co-worker where I work is proposing all future code devopment be done
> in Visual C#. Here is his assessment of VB:
>
> VB.NET is hack as far as the CLR(Common Language Runtime) goes. It was
> retrofited into the .Net framework for those people who simply don't,
> and do not care to, understand object oriented programming. Quite a
> few of it's (features) were forced into the language through very ugly
> means to make it easier for the VB guys to bring in their code. Things
> like "static" veriables and functions are called "shared" in VB.NET,
> because the keyword static was already used in VB6. VB.NET is loaded
> with these kinds of little idiocies.
>
> Any comment?
>[/color]

[Matthew.Gertz@feedback.microsoft.com]

Re: To VB or not to VB?

You know those movies or TV shows where it says "Inspired by So-and-so's bestselling novel?" That's pretty much how I *personally* think about the relationship between VB6 vs. VB.Net (and I am *not* speaking for my employer -- just for me) -- we've taken a great tried-and-true concept and applied it to a new medium (in this case, .NET) with (I hope) great success. The question the community has to answer is, did we create the "Harry Potter" movie (i.e., faithfully capturing the spirit of the original, while adding lots of great new value) or did we create the "A Wizard of Earthsea" miniseries (i.e., ditched everything cool and added a lot of pointless stuff besides).

Don't analyze that analogy too much, or it breaks down in obvious ways -- for instance, I truly see the process of moving from VB6 to VB.Net as an "upgrade" in every sense of the word -- and I really, *really* hope that the analogy doesn't sidetrack this thread, since I'm sure I just offended everyone who disliked the Harry Potter movie and adored the Earthsea miniseries... :-)

For me, I'm really pleased with what we've gotten done, and having originally been a finicky C++ user, I find myself having lots of fun playing around with VB .Net. (I use VB6 occasionally when dealing with legacy apps we have sitting around, and although I enjoy using it as well, it drives me bats trying to remember when to use parentheses, figuring out what's handling a thrown error, etc.)

Gotta run for a plane to get to DC for the final VS launch event, but I'll check back on Friday...

--Matt--*

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan West
Posted At: Friday, January 06, 2006 3:43 AM
Posted To: microsoft.publi c.dotnet.langua ges.vb
Conversation: To VB or not to VB?
Subject: Re: To VB or not to VB?



<Matthew.Gertz@ feedback.micros oft.com> wrote in message
news:%23KlyiGlE GHA.2072@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
[color=blue]
> It's my hope (and belief) that VB .NET stands as a language in its own
> right, both as compared with VB6 and C#, and is not just some weird fusion
> of VB6 and .NET. But, that's for y'all to decide, I expect... :-)[/color]


Do you regard VB.NET as a new language, or as a new version of VB? I'm just
curious as to your view of this.


--
Regards
Jonathan West

[Jonathan West]

Re: To VB or not to VB?

Hi Matthew

I've taken your advice and not taken all that much notice of your analogies.
Perhaps I need to be clearer in the way I phrased the question. A key
distinction between a new version and a whole new language is whether
existing projects in the older version of the language are intended to be
upgraded to the new one with minimal problems.

In other words, if you regarded VB.NET as a new version, it was your
intention and expectation that the great majority of VB6 projects would
migrate to VB.NET and that this migration would proceed largely
automatically with not all that much manual rewriting to do. The code
conversion would be something around 95% automated and the manual rewrites
relatively trivial. That wouldn't preclude some changes in the syntax such
as the use of parentheses.

If you regarded VB.NET as a new language, you did not have such expectations
for easy migration of VB6 code.

It seems that there are three possible cases

1. VB.NET was intended as a new version of VB, and you think that the
necessary ease of migration has been achieved.

2. VB.NET was intended as a new version of VB, but you think that the
necessary ease of migration has not been achieved.

3. VB.NET was intended to be a new language, and ease of migration from VB6
was not a major consideration.

Which of these cases fits best with your personal view of the language?

--
Regards
Jonathan West


<Matthew.Gertz@ feedback.micros oft.com> wrote in message
news:uNZm6kXFGH A.140@TK2MSFTNG P12.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> You know those movies or TV shows where it says "Inspired by So-and-so's
> bestselling novel?" That's pretty much how I *personally* think about
> the relationship between VB6 vs. VB.Net (and I am *not* speaking for my
> employer -- just for me) -- we've taken a great tried-and-true concept and
> applied it to a new medium (in this case, .NET) with (I hope) great
> success. The question the community has to answer is, did we create the
> "Harry Potter" movie (i.e., faithfully capturing the spirit of the
> original, while adding lots of great new value) or did we create the "A
> Wizard of Earthsea" miniseries (i.e., ditched everything cool and added a
> lot of pointless stuff besides).
>
> Don't analyze that analogy too much, or it breaks down in obvious ways --
> for instance, I truly see the process of moving from VB6 to VB.Net as an
> "upgrade" in every sense of the word -- and I really, *really* hope that
> the analogy doesn't sidetrack this thread, since I'm sure I just offended
> everyone who disliked the Harry Potter movie and adored the Earthsea
> miniseries... :-)
>
> For me, I'm really pleased with what we've gotten done, and having
> originally been a finicky C++ user, I find myself having lots of fun
> playing around with VB .Net. (I use VB6 occasionally when dealing with
> legacy apps we have sitting around, and although I enjoy using it as well,
> it drives me bats trying to remember when to use parentheses, figuring out
> what's handling a thrown error, etc.)
>
> Gotta run for a plane to get to DC for the final VS launch event, but I'll
> check back on Friday...
>
> --Matt--*
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan West
> Posted At: Friday, January 06, 2006 3:43 AM
> Posted To: microsoft.publi c.dotnet.langua ges.vb
> Conversation: To VB or not to VB?
> Subject: Re: To VB or not to VB?
>
>
>
> <Matthew.Gertz@ feedback.micros oft.com> wrote in message
> news:%23KlyiGlE GHA.2072@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
>[color=green]
>> It's my hope (and belief) that VB .NET stands as a language in its own
>> right, both as compared with VB6 and C#, and is not just some weird
>> fusion
>> of VB6 and .NET. But, that's for y'all to decide, I expect... :-)[/color]
>
>
> Do you regard VB.NET as a new language, or as a new version of VB? I'm
> just
> curious as to your view of this.
>
>
> --
> Regards
> Jonathan West[/color]

[Homer J Simpson]

Re: To VB or not to VB?


"Jonathan West" <jwest@mvps.org > wrote in message
news:%23biV%230 gFGHA.3984@TK2M SFTNGP14.phx.gb l...
[color=blue]
> It seems that there are three possible cases
>
> 1. VB.NET was intended as a new version of VB, and you think that the
> necessary ease of migration has been achieved.
>
> 2. VB.NET was intended as a new version of VB, but you think that the
> necessary ease of migration has not been achieved.
>
> 3. VB.NET was intended to be a new language, and ease of migration from
> VB6 was not a major consideration.
>
> Which of these cases fits best with your personal view of the language?[/color]

My choice is

4. VB.NET got into the hands of 'software priests' who made it much more
complex than it needed to be, with oblique references that obfuscate rather
than clarify.

[Jay Taplin]

Re: To VB or not to VB?

3 and 4, most definitely 3 and 4.

[Matthew.Gertz@feedback.microsoft.com]

Re: To VB or not to VB?

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>
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>
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[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

Re: To VB or not to VB?

Matthew,

<Matthew.Gertz@ feedback.micros oft.com> schrieb:[color=blue]
>B a c k a n d u n b u r i e d f r o m m a i l : - )
>
> E a s e o f m i g r a t i o n i s a h u g e , h u g e g o a
> l f o r u s - - a l w a y s h a s b e e n , a n d w i l l
> c o n t i n u e t o b e . T h e w h o l e m a n t r a - -
> t h e p r i m a r y m i s s i o n - - f o r t h e r e c e n t
> v e r s i o n o f V B , i n p l a n n i n g m e e t i n g s ,
> d e s i g n m e e t i n g s , a n d r i g h t d o w n t o t h
> e p o s t e r s c o v e r i n g o u r h a l l w a y w a l l s ,
> w a s a l l a b o u t h e l p i n g V B 6 c u s t o m e r s m
> o v e f o r w a r d . T h a t i n v o l v e d :[/color]

I'm wondering what the problem with your newsreader is...

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

[Matthew.Gertz@feedback.microsoft.com]

Re: To VB or not to VB?

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M\0y\0 \0c\0h\0o\0i\0c \0e\0 \0i\0s

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t\0h\0a\0n\0 \0c\0l\0a\0r\0i \0f\0y\0.

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

Re: To VB or not to VB?

Matt's reply:

---
Hmm... that's no good. Every post I'm making seems to be going out
mangled, and I can't even read my own posts at all (not even as much as
you were able to see). I'll have to track this down & see why this is
happening.

Herfried, I wondered if you would be so kind and would please do me a
favor, would you please convey my apologies to that thread, and that I
will try to get the problem fixed? I would be much obliged...

Thanks,
--Matt--*
---

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>