Dear MS VS 2005 developers

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  • Dean Slindee

    #1

    Dear MS VS 2005 developers

    Does anybody know to whom I can send this letter so that it hits home before
    Visual Studio 2005 goes production?

    Dear Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 developers,



    This is a request for you to change four of the most basic controls to
    improve them and make them more consistent amongst themselves.



    I am speaking of the four controls into which text is entered:

    a. Textbox

    b. Masked Edit

    c. Combo Box

    d. Date Time Picker

    e. Check boxes (ok, so it's really five controls)



    Let's start with something I call an improvement: Let's stop wasting 4
    pixels of valuable form real estate on each and every control listed above.
    Here is the waste: it takes 3 pixels to draw a 3D border around each of
    these controls (I guess that's where the "3" in 3D came from, huh?). But
    seriously, if the border were drawn as a single pixel then it would take
    only 2 pixels of form real estate to draw each control, not 6 pixels. Now,
    when you multiply the number of controls on a form times 4 wasted pixels,
    that equals a lot of wasted real estate on every form.



    A 3D control border buys you nothing. Besides, the above five controls' 3D
    appearance is inconsistent with that of tabpages, menu items, listviews,
    toolbars, etc, etc. I think it's time we all abandon the archaic 3D look
    and become good citizens of flatland. One exception is in order: allow both
    flat and 3D buttons. Since a button's analogue in the real world is truly
    3D, therefore, it should look like it needs to be pushed.



    Now that we know how to reclaim four pixels per control, let's not stop
    there. Why do text boxes have to be 20 pixels in height? There must be at
    least 3 to 4 pixels of white space between the border and the text itself.
    Let's standardize on an 18 pixel height for all of the four text controls.
    There, we've saved another 2 pixels of real estate for every one of those
    controls on every form. That leaves the 16x16 dropdown arrow icon as is, no
    changes needed.



    Now lets move on to the problem of consistency. Inconsistency in the
    properties for these five (four) text controls is really a problem in Visual
    Studio. Each of these controls should have the following properties:

    a. FlatStyle (not for DatePicker)

    b. BorderStyle = FixedSingle (not for DatePicker)

    c. MaximumSize (overridden in ComboBox)

    d. TextAlign (like label) text rides at bottom in DatePicker at 18
    pixels height.



    Since all of these text controls can and often do appear together on a
    single form, all of them should be height-alignable and text-alignable to
    make the best presentation. It is ridiculous to have to make them all 21
    pixels in height just to match the combobox height.



    Finally, if you would like to see how all of these controls should look
    right now, before doing any control redesign or coding, may I refer you to
    this web site: http://www.lumisoft.ee/lsWWW/ENG/ind...?type=products



    There you will find a textbox, datepicker, combobox, masked edit box, and a
    check box as described above. And, please, please, please check out the
    ..FlashControl property built into each of these controls. It makes your
    ErrorProvider control unnecessary and possibley obsolete. (It also wastes
    more form real estate).



    So why I am telling you all this? Yes, I am using these controls, not
    yours. Problem is, they are not quite industrial-strength enough to use in
    enterprise applications. If you could only redesign your controls so that
    they could look like these controls, and back them up with your
    industrial-strength properties and methods, the world of application design
    would be a much better looking, more real estate efficient, and a more
    consistent place to develop in.



    I will get off my soapbox now and await your reply.

    Thank you for listening.

    Dean Slindee


  • Peter van der Goes

    #2
    Re: Dear MS VS 2005 developers


    "Dean Slindee" <slindee@charte r.net> wrote in message
    news:VBzfe.1715 9$cZ6.6022@fe02 .lga...[color=blue]
    > Does anybody know to whom I can send this letter so that it hits home
    > before
    > Visual Studio 2005 goes production?
    >[/color]
    <snip>

    Here's the place.



    Note the link under the heading "Product Feedback Center" entitled:

    "Make a Suggestion or Report a Bug"


    --
    Peter [MVP Visual Developer]
    Jack of all trades, master of none.


    Comment

    • Cor Ligthert

      #3
      Re: Dear MS VS 2005 developers

      Dean,

      In addition to Peter, maybe as well a better place for your request



      However you make me curious why "not the datetime picker", what I have seen
      in these newsgroups is that the control that needs beside the combo/listbox
      the most attention.

      Cor


      Comment

      • Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]

        #4
        Re: Dear MS VS 2005 developers

        "Dean Slindee" <slindee@charte r.net> schrieb:[color=blue]
        > Does anybody know to whom I can send this letter so that it hits home
        > before
        > Visual Studio 2005 goes production?[/color]

        I doubt that there are high chances to get that fixed in the Whidbey
        version, however, you can report suggestions and bugs in the MSDN Product
        Feedback Center:

        <URL:http://lab.msdn.micros oft.com/productfeedback/>

        --
        M S Herfried K. Wagner
        M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
        V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

        Comment

        • Larry Lard

          #5
          Re: Dear MS VS 2005 developers


          Dean Slindee wrote:
          [snip][color=blue]
          > Finally, if you would like to see how all of these controls should[/color]
          look

          I think you mean 'how I want all these controls to look'
          [color=blue]
          > right now, before doing any control redesign or coding, may I refer[/color]
          you to[color=blue]
          > this web site:[/color]
          http://www.lumisoft.ee/lsWWW/ENG/ind...?type=products[color=blue]
          >
          > There you will find a textbox, datepicker, combobox, masked edit box,[/color]
          and a[color=blue]
          > check box as described above. And, please, please, please check out[/color]
          the[color=blue]
          > .FlashControl property built into each of these controls. It makes[/color]
          your[color=blue]
          > ErrorProvider control unnecessary and possibley obsolete. (It also[/color]
          wastes[color=blue]
          > more form real estate).
          >
          > So why I am telling you all this? Yes, I am using these controls,[/color]
          not[color=blue]
          > yours. Problem is, they are not quite industrial-strength enough to[/color]
          use

          Maybe you should fix your controls rather than ask MS to completely
          redesign the standard controls and do your development for you ?

          --
          Larry Lard
          Replies to group please

          Comment

          • Dean Slindee

            #6
            Re: Dear MS VS 2005 developers

            Cor,
            I think we are actually thinking the same, but that you read my cryptic note
            the opposite of what I intended. When I wrote: a. FlatStyle (not for
            DatePicker)

            what I meant to say is that in VS 2005 Beta 2 there is no FlatStyle property
            for the DatePicker, and I think (we both think) there should be a FlatStyle
            for that control, as well as TextBox, ComboBox, ListBox, CheckBox, etc.
            Right?
            Dean Slindee
            "Cor Ligthert" <notmyfirstname @planet.nl> wrote in message
            news:OmQm4dGVFH A.2124@TK2MSFTN GP14.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
            > Dean,
            >
            > In addition to Peter, maybe as well a better place for your request
            >
            > http://forums.microsoft.com/msdn/Sho...spx?ForumID=32
            >
            > However you make me curious why "not the datetime picker", what I have[/color]
            seen[color=blue]
            > in these newsgroups is that the control that needs beside the[/color]
            combo/listbox[color=blue]
            > the most attention.
            >
            > Cor
            >
            >[/color]


            Comment

            • Dean Slindee

              #7
              Re: Dear MS VS 2005 developers

              Definitely disagree.

              MS is the primary Windows control supplier. Their conrols need to be
              improved and the controls also need to be designed to be more consistent
              with each other. I am an application builder and do not want to reinvent
              controls. What I want to do is point out to MS that even single individuals
              (in Estonia) are designing better controls than MS is, and it's time MS made
              some improvements. That way, both you and I can benefit, as well as our
              users.

              Dean Slindee
              "Larry Lard" <larrylard@hotm ail.com> wrote in message
              news:1115646580 .530073.256950@ o13g2000cwo.goo glegroups.com.. .[color=blue]
              >
              > Dean Slindee wrote:
              > [snip][color=green]
              > > Finally, if you would like to see how all of these controls should[/color]
              > look
              >
              > I think you mean 'how I want all these controls to look'
              >[color=green]
              > > right now, before doing any control redesign or coding, may I refer[/color]
              > you to[color=green]
              > > this web site:[/color]
              > http://www.lumisoft.ee/lsWWW/ENG/ind...?type=products[color=green]
              > >
              > > There you will find a textbox, datepicker, combobox, masked edit box,[/color]
              > and a[color=green]
              > > check box as described above. And, please, please, please check out[/color]
              > the[color=green]
              > > .FlashControl property built into each of these controls. It makes[/color]
              > your[color=green]
              > > ErrorProvider control unnecessary and possibley obsolete. (It also[/color]
              > wastes[color=green]
              > > more form real estate).
              > >
              > > So why I am telling you all this? Yes, I am using these controls,[/color]
              > not[color=green]
              > > yours. Problem is, they are not quite industrial-strength enough to[/color]
              > use
              >
              > Maybe you should fix your controls rather than ask MS to completely
              > redesign the standard controls and do your development for you ?
              >
              > --
              > Larry Lard
              > Replies to group please
              >[/color]


              Comment

              • Charles D. Quarles

                #8
                Re: Dear MS VS 2005 developers

                Dear Dean,

                "Dean Slindee" <slindee@charte r.net> wrote in message
                news:VBzfe.1715 9$cZ6.6022@fe02 .lga...[color=blue]
                > Does anybody know to whom I can send this letter so that it hits home
                > before
                > Visual Studio 2005 goes production?
                >
                > Dear Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 developers,
                >
                >
                >
                > This is a request for you to change four of the most basic controls to
                > improve them and make them more consistent amongst themselves.
                >
                >
                >
                > I am speaking of the four controls into which text is entered:
                >
                > a. Textbox[/color]

                The textbox control in VS.NET beta 2 has the following border style
                properties: none, fixedsingle, fixed3d; has a maxlength property with a
                default of 32767 which can be changed, and has a text alignment property,
                textalign left, textalign center, textalign right.[color=blue]
                >
                > b. Masked Edit
                >[/color]
                The masked textbox control in VS.NET beta 2 has the following border style
                properties: none, fixedsingle, fixed3d; has a maxlength property derived
                from the textbox control that isn't supported by the designer's property
                window, and has a text alignment property, textalign left, textalign center,
                textalign right.
                [color=blue]
                > c. Combo Box[/color]

                The combobox control in VS.NET beta 2 has the following flatstyle
                properties, flat, standard, popup, and system; has a maxlength property that
                can be changed; has a maximumsize and a minimumsize property; but doesn't
                have a textalign property nor a border style property. It does have a flag
                that changes whether the OS does or doesn't draw the control's elements in
                the list, so you can get the text appearance that you want by subclassing
                the control.
                [color=blue]
                >
                > d. Date Time Picker
                >[/color]
                The datetime picker control in VS.NET beta2 has a maximumsize and a
                minimumsize property. Having text appearance properties or methods by
                default might be useful.
                [color=blue]
                > e. Check boxes (ok, so it's really five controls)
                >[/color]
                The Windows Forms checkbox control in VS.NET beta2 has the usual flatstyle
                property values, has a flatappearance property that is modifiable, and has
                the textalign property with nine possible alignment values.

                snip
                [color=blue]
                >
                > I will get off my soapbox now and await your reply.
                >
                > Thank you for listening.
                >
                > Dean Slindee
                >
                >[/color]

                Thanks,

                Charles


                Comment

                • Cor Ligthert

                  #9
                  Re: Dear MS VS 2005 developers

                  Dean,

                  I will not say should be, however when it is done for some than for all.

                  Cor


                  Comment

                  • Peter van der Goes

                    #10
                    Re: Dear MS VS 2005 developers


                    "Dean Slindee" <slindee@charte r.net> wrote in message
                    news:UTMfe.7$im 2.0@fe06.lga...[color=blue]
                    > Definitely disagree.
                    >
                    > MS is the primary Windows control supplier. Their conrols need to be
                    > improved and the controls also need to be designed to be more consistent
                    > with each other. I am an application builder and do not want to reinvent
                    > controls. What I want to do is point out to MS that even single
                    > individuals
                    > (in Estonia) are designing better controls than MS is, and it's time MS
                    > made
                    > some improvements. That way, both you and I can benefit, as well as our
                    > users.
                    >
                    > Dean Slindee[/color]

                    So, did you follow the links provided above and post your suggestion?

                    --
                    Peter [MVP Visual Developer]
                    Jack of all trades, master of none.


                    Comment

                    • Dino Buljubasic

                      #11
                      Re: Dear MS VS 2005 developers

                      Dean,

                      I agree with you. The controls are not consistent and in all
                      applications I have built so far, I have to rebuild some of the
                      controls. I have built my masked text box (by the way, why the heck a
                      text box, label, panel etc can have only black border ???), and couple
                      of others controls. Now I am trying to build a panel that has
                      rounded edges (why everything has to be a square ???)

                      Somebody provided LumiSoft controls link in one of the posts above
                      and I find that their are quite good but they as well have some
                      drawbacks such us:

                      1. to close a combo or datetime picker you have to click on another
                      control - this is very, very bad
                      2. change dpi on your monitor and you will see what happens with
                      datetime picker controls, probably others as well
                      3. inside time control, to chenge from hours to minutes and to
                      seconds, you have to use mouse instead of control doing it for you by
                      itself like datetime picker does.

                      I am not using these but found these 3 problem just by testing them, I
                      bet there are more hidden issues.

                      I really think Microsoft should work on these issues. The controls
                      should allow us to customize they look (border color, border style
                      such as edged, rounded, bevel, etc) They have provided us with such a
                      great tool (vs.net) that is way more complex than the issues we are
                      bringing up here, so why not to fix them. It is benefits for both us
                      developers and microsoft, isnt' it.

                      _dino_

                      On Sun, 8 May 2005 21:06:18 -0500, "Dean Slindee"
                      <slindee@charte r.net> wrote:
                      [color=blue]
                      >Does anybody know to whom I can send this letter so that it hits home before
                      >Visual Studio 2005 goes production?
                      >
                      >Dear Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 developers,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >This is a request for you to change four of the most basic controls to
                      >improve them and make them more consistent amongst themselves.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >I am speaking of the four controls into which text is entered:
                      >
                      > a. Textbox
                      >
                      > b. Masked Edit
                      >
                      > c. Combo Box
                      >
                      > d. Date Time Picker
                      >
                      > e. Check boxes (ok, so it's really five controls)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Let's start with something I call an improvement: Let's stop wasting 4
                      >pixels of valuable form real estate on each and every control listed above.
                      >Here is the waste: it takes 3 pixels to draw a 3D border around each of
                      >these controls (I guess that's where the "3" in 3D came from, huh?). But
                      >seriously, if the border were drawn as a single pixel then it would take
                      >only 2 pixels of form real estate to draw each control, not 6 pixels. Now,
                      >when you multiply the number of controls on a form times 4 wasted pixels,
                      >that equals a lot of wasted real estate on every form.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >A 3D control border buys you nothing. Besides, the above five controls' 3D
                      >appearance is inconsistent with that of tabpages, menu items, listviews,
                      >toolbars, etc, etc. I think it's time we all abandon the archaic 3D look
                      >and become good citizens of flatland. One exception is in order: allow both
                      >flat and 3D buttons. Since a button's analogue in the real world is truly
                      >3D, therefore, it should look like it needs to be pushed.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Now that we know how to reclaim four pixels per control, let's not stop
                      >there. Why do text boxes have to be 20 pixels in height? There must be at
                      >least 3 to 4 pixels of white space between the border and the text itself.
                      >Let's standardize on an 18 pixel height for all of the four text controls.
                      >There, we've saved another 2 pixels of real estate for every one of those
                      >controls on every form. That leaves the 16x16 dropdown arrow icon as is, no
                      >changes needed.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Now lets move on to the problem of consistency. Inconsistency in the
                      >properties for these five (four) text controls is really a problem in Visual
                      >Studio. Each of these controls should have the following properties:
                      >
                      >a. FlatStyle (not for DatePicker)
                      >
                      >b. BorderStyle = FixedSingle (not for DatePicker)
                      >
                      >c. MaximumSize (overridden in ComboBox)
                      >
                      >d. TextAlign (like label) text rides at bottom in DatePicker at 18
                      >pixels height.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Since all of these text controls can and often do appear together on a
                      >single form, all of them should be height-alignable and text-alignable to
                      >make the best presentation. It is ridiculous to have to make them all 21
                      >pixels in height just to match the combobox height.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Finally, if you would like to see how all of these controls should look
                      >right now, before doing any control redesign or coding, may I refer you to
                      >this web site: http://www.lumisoft.ee/lsWWW/ENG/ind...?type=products
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >There you will find a textbox, datepicker, combobox, masked edit box, and a
                      >check box as described above. And, please, please, please check out the
                      >.FlashContro l property built into each of these controls. It makes your
                      >ErrorProvide r control unnecessary and possibley obsolete. (It also wastes
                      >more form real estate).
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >So why I am telling you all this? Yes, I am using these controls, not
                      >yours. Problem is, they are not quite industrial-strength enough to use in
                      >enterprise applications. If you could only redesign your controls so that
                      >they could look like these controls, and back them up with your
                      >industrial-strength properties and methods, the world of application design
                      >would be a much better looking, more real estate efficient, and a more
                      >consistent place to develop in.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >I will get off my soapbox now and await your reply.
                      >
                      >Thank you for listening.
                      >
                      >Dean Slindee
                      >[/color]

                      Comment

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