You advice please

[Nigel Rantor]

Re: You advice please

Fredrik Lundh wrote:

Nigel Rantor wrote:
>

>Throwaway comments like yours that are pithy, emotional and devoid of
>any factual content are just the kind of thing that makes lists such
>as this less useful than they could be.

>
Oh, please. It's a fact that Python advocacy is a lot more low-key than
the advocacy of certain potentially competing technologies. It's always
been that way. Too many Europeans involved, most likely.

Your opinion. We simply disagree on this point.

I'm not sure what the comment about Europeans even means though.

Have you read this list?
>
I would suggest your comment indicates not.

>
This list is a Python forum. Calvin (who's a long time contributor to
this forum, which you would have known if you'd actually followed the
list for some time) was talking about the real world.

I did not mean in a "how long have you been here" way. I apologise. I
meant in a "have you not seen how much traffic, including rabid fanboys,
this list gets?"

You're right, I should have been much clearer on that point.

n

[Nigel Rantor]

Re: You advice please

Calvin Spealman wrote:

God forbid I try to make a joke.

Ah, sorry, sense of humour failure for me today obviously.

n

[Michael.Coll-Barth@VerizonWireless.com]

RE: You advice please

-----Original Message-----
From: Calvin Spealman

God forbid I try to make a joke.

No kidding! As a lurker newbie, I don't mind one bit. Actually, I have
yet to meet a person that codes in Ruby that doesn't also do Python. I
have met many Python coders that have never even looked at Ruby.

Your joke may have more truth in it than you realized. And upper
management reads the *V*logs and believe the hype. We should be
prepared to counter the argument.



The information contained in this message and any attachment may be
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If you have received this communication in error, please notify me
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[Alia Khouri]

Re: You advice please

Hussein B wrote:

I'm a Java/Java EE developer and I'm playing with Python these days.
I like the Python language so much and I like its communities and the
Django framework.

Sounds familiar... (-:

My friends are about to open a Ruby/Rails shop and they are asking me
to join them.

In this case, I think you have to make decision that is not technology-
centric but application-centric, and you should also consider closely
the opportunity set and capability set available to you and your
friends.

I don't know what, sure I'm not leaving Java, but they are asking me
to stop learning Python and concentrate on Ruby/Rails.

I don't think you should stop learning anything that rings your bell..
I love learning other languages (e.g. Haskell, Lua, Ruby, C#, Java,
boo, etc..) and I will code projects as per the requirements at the
time, but I tend to Python because, like you, I like the language and
the community.

In _addition_ to your love for Python and Django, why not learn Ruby/
Rails? It's not a bad framework at all, and Ruby is quite fun to
program in as well...?

The sad fact (at least to me), Ruby is getting a lot of attention
these days.

Not a sad fact, What's good for ruby is good for python and vice
versa... Friendly competition is always positive and usually good
ideas cross-pollinate across the languages...

Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
language and it is used by many big, big names?

Who says Python is not getting attention? Last time I checked,
Python's popularity was at all time high, and the big guns in the
industry favor (witness Google AppEngine, Microsoft Ironpython
preceding Ironruby, etc..)

And do I dare to say it is much more charming?

That is an aesthetic judgement... (-:

What do you think of Ruby/Rails? do they worth learning and working
with?

(see above)

Any way, I'm not leaving Python and I will try to study it every time
I get a chance...

Good for you (-:

Thanks.

[David C. Ullrich]

Re: You advice please

In article <g7uupr$t50$1$8 300dec7@news.de mon.co.uk>,
Ken Starks <straton@lampsa cos.demon.co.uk wrote:

Hussein B wrote:
>[...]
>
And now it looks as if I shall wish to learn another little language, at
least to 'dabble-in' level: Lua, because it is going to srcipt a new
variation in the TeX world.

That sounded interesting - I did a little googling to get
some idea what you were talking about.

But neither has a cat-in-hell's chance of replacing python anytime
soon, as far as I am concerned.

And one of the things I found was Lua-in-Python and Python-in-Lua,
leading to Python in LuaTeX:

http://labix.org/lunatic-python

http://wiki.contextgarden.net/User:Luigi.scarso#Luatex_examples

--
David C. Ullrich

[Hussein B]

Re: You advice please

On Aug 13, 8:08 am, Bruno Desthuilliers <bruno.
42.desthuilli.. .@websiteburo.i nvalidwrote:

Hussein B a écrit :
(snip)
>
>
>

Personally, I don't like the RoR framework at all.
It doesn't come with any thing new or revolutionary,

>
You could say the same about Python and about Django. None of them come
with anything new or revolutionary. And both have warts too.
>

they just take
the hard lessons from the Java web applications world.
I think Ruby was a dead language and RoR gave it a life kiss.

>
Ruby was a "slowly growing" language (wrt/ exposure at least) before
Rails became the new buzz in town. But it was certainly not "dead".

Yes but Python is a known language and used by many big names (Google
and NASA should be more than enough examples).
Ruby on the other hand was hardly being hear, it lacks the
documentation, a specification and an umbrella like JCP or PSF.
I'm not sure why "The Pragmatic Programmer" and "Manning" publishers
aren't doing any work on Python.
Well, the Python bit me :)

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: You advice please

Fredrik Lundh a écrit :
(snip)

Oh, please. It's a fact that Python advocacy is a lot more low-key than
the advocacy of certain potentially competing technologies. It's always
been that way. Too many Europeans involved, most likely.

I'm afraid I don't get the joke about Europeans ??? (ok, I'm gonna get
me some coffee and will try again...)

[Hussein B]

Re: You advice please

On Aug 13, 11:14 am, Alia Khouri <alia_kho...@ya hoo.comwrote:

Hussein B wrote:

I'm a Java/Java EE developer and I'm playing with Python these days.
I like the Python language so much and I like its communities and the
Django framework.

>
Sounds familiar... (-:
>

My friends are about to open a Ruby/Rails shop and they are asking me
to join them.

>
In this case, I think you have to make decision that is not technology-
centric but application-centric, and you should also consider closely
the opportunity set and capability set available to you and your
friends.
>

I don't know what, sure I'm not leaving Java, but they are asking me
to stop learning Python and concentrate on Ruby/Rails.

>
I don't think you should stop learning anything that rings your bell..
I love learning other languages (e.g. Haskell, Lua, Ruby, C#, Java,
boo, etc..) and I will code projects as per the requirements at the
time, but I tend to Python because, like you, I like the language and
the community.
>
In _addition_ to your love for Python and Django, why not learn Ruby/
Rails? It's not a bad framework at all, and Ruby is quite fun to
program in as well...?
>

The sad fact (at least to me), Ruby is getting a lot of attention
these days.

>
Not a sad fact, What's good for ruby is good for python and vice
versa... Friendly competition is always positive and usually good
ideas cross-pollinate across the languages...
>

Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
language and it is used by many big, big names?

>
Who says Python is not getting attention? Last time I checked,
Python's popularity was at all time high, and the big guns in the
industry favor (witness Google AppEngine, Microsoft Ironpython
preceding Ironruby, etc..)
>

And do I dare to say it is much more charming?

>
That is an aesthetic judgement... (-:
>

What do you think of Ruby/Rails? do they worth learning and working
with?

>
(see above)
>

Any way, I'm not leaving Python and I will try to study it every time
I get a chance...

>
Good for you (-:
>

Thanks.

But this critisim looks so serious:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_programming_language#Criticism

[Python.Arno]

Re: You advice please


On 14 aug 2008, at 09:41, Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:

Fredrik Lundh a écrit :
(snip)

>Oh, please. It's a fact that Python advocacy is a lot more low-key
>than the advocacy of certain potentially competing technologies.
>It's always been that way. Too many Europeans involved, most
>likely.

>
I'm afraid I don't get the joke about Europeans ??? (ok, I'm gonna
get me some coffee and will try again...)

It's a compliment, we don't put McDonalds & Coca cola on just
anything ;)

[Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven]

Re: You advice please

-On [20080814 09:51], Bruno Desthuilliers (bruno.42.desth uilliers@websit eburo.invalid) wrote:

>I'm afraid I don't get the joke about Europeans ??? (ok, I'm gonna get
>me some coffee and will try again...)

I think what was meant is:

Python has a strong following in Europe and a lot of Europeans are
participating in either Python itself or core modules. Europeans in general
tend to be less involved in spin doctoring/marketing.

--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org/ asmodai
イェルーン ラウフãƒãƒƒ ク ヴァン デル ウェルヴェ ン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
Embrace Love, be godlike...

[Lie]

Re: You advice please

On Aug 13, 6:14 pm, Hussein B <hubaghd...@gma il.comwrote:

Hey,
I'm a Java/Java EE developer and I'm playing with Python these days.
I like the Python language so much and I like its communities and the
Django framework.
My friends are about to open a Ruby/Rails shop and they are asking me
to join them.
I don't know what, sure I'm not leaving Java, but they are asking me
to stop learning Python and concentrate on Ruby/Rails.

A real programmer can learn as much language as he pleases and tell
him that concentrating on one language is always a bad idea, since
that narrows the mind and diversing language learning is great since
it allows you to think of a problem from different angles (especially
if the nature of the languages are very different, like one object
oriented language and one functional language and one procedural and
another dynamic language and another static language).

The sad fact (at least to me), Ruby is getting a lot of attention
these days.

I don't know, but the data (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/
paperinfo/tpci/index.html and http://www.langpop.com/) shows that
python is more popular than ruby in most cases, nearly by a factor of
two.

Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
language and it is used by many big, big names?
And do I dare to say it is much more charming?
What do you think of Ruby/Rails? do they worth learning and working
with?

Yes, every language have its own good and bad (yeah, even assembly). I
have only brushed Ruby once though, so I can't give detailed
explanation about it. A good teacher would encourage his students to
learn from other masters even though he might be one of the most
prominent expert in the subject, a good teacher would even encourage
his students to learn from sides that opposed his side of view (learn
from your enemy[1]).

[1] The usage of the word "enemy" is over-exaggerated.

Any way, I'm not leaving Python and I will try to study it every time
I get a chance...
Thanks.

[castironpi]

Re: You advice please

On Aug 15, 10:05 am, Bruno Desthuilliers
<bdesth.quelque ch...@free.quel quepart.frwrote :

Hussein B a écrit :
(snip)
>

But this critisim looks so serious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_pr...uage#Criticism

>

(snip)

the usual paranoïa from bondage&discipl ine language addicts

Ooo... well said.

[Sonolin]

Re: You advice please

On Aug 13, 4:14 am, Hussein B <hubaghd...@gma il.comwrote:

Hey,
I'm a Java/Java EE developer and I'm playing with Python these days.
I like the Python language so much and I like its communities and the
Django framework.
My friends are about to open a Ruby/Rails shop and they are asking me
to join them.
I don't know what, sure I'm not leaving Java, but they are asking me
to stop learning Python and concentrate on Ruby/Rails.
The sad fact (at least to me), Ruby is getting a lot of attention
these days.
Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
language and it is used by many big, big names?
And do I dare to say it is much more charming?
What do you think of Ruby/Rails? do they worth learning and working
with?
Any way, I'm not leaving Python and I will try to study it every time
I get a chance...
Thanks.

Generally when developing something these days (Web App or not) I have
found that the programming language really does not have a huge affect
on the success of the product. If the developers are dedicated, they
can generally make most programming languages work. It just comes
down to what you prefer, or if something clearly is better than the
others use it if at all possible. For example, when programming a
game, you could easily code it in Python, or C++. Sure, C++ would be
faster, but sometimes these days speed is not a large factor. And you
can always just code the complex calculations in C, and the rest in
Python.

So, in short, if you are up to the challenge - take it. I do not know
Ruby (at ALL), but if some of my friends wanted to develop a RoR app I
would not turn them down for the language choice (Ruby). There has
been successful Web Apps made in Ruby, Python, PHP, Perl, Java, etc. -
they all have their place. I would much rather code in Python than in
PHP, but most of my Web Programming is done in PHP due to client
preference.

And as for being afraid of "abandoning " Python... I know many
programming languages, and have not abandoned my favorites. Just
because I know how to code in Visual Basic does not mean I do
regularly.

Hopefully this made some sense - pretty tired ;)

--

http://designandprogram.com

http://twitter.com/sonolin

[Hussein B]

Re: You advice please

On Aug 15, 10:05 am, Bruno Desthuilliers
<bdesth.quelque ch...@free.quel quepart.frwrote :

Hussein B a écrit :
(snip)
>

But this critisim looks so serious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_pr...uage#Criticism

>
Most of what's written here could apply to Python too - all the part
which mostly reflects the usual paranoïa from bondage&discipl ine
langages addicts wrt/ dynamic languages. The remaining is about
implementation issues in ruby 1.8.

Ruby doesn't has the language specification, do you think this is an
issue or a weak point?