Change PC to Win or Windows

[Joel Teichroeb]

In trunk of the svn there is a folder called PCbuild. Now lets say that
I am running linux on my Personal Computer and want to build python. I
go into the PCbuild directory, but wait. This is for windows not for any
personal computer.

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
not have to directly mention Windows. Could all the places that say PC
that are not referring to Personal Computers in general be changed to
Win or Windows.

[Derek Martin]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
not have to directly mention Windows.

Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC. Of
course, all IBM PCs ran MS-DOS, since that's how IBM sold them...
Then others started to build copies the IBM PC based on Intel
hardware, and the resulting class of computers was called,
collectively, "PC Clones" -- shortened to PCs -- by the industry and
its market. Then companies like AMD and Cyrix started building
Intel-compatible CPUs, and the term PC was extended to include systems
built using those architectures. Eventually Windows was released, and
PCs became Windows boxen running on Intel-compatible hardware, and I
personally know no one who doesn't use the term that way...

Much like the English word "bank" (and numerous others), the term "PC"
has come to have several meanings, one of which is the above. You may
not like it, but we're pretty much stuck with the term, so you may as
well get used to it.

--
Derek D. Martin

http://www.pizzashack.org/

GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D


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[=?ISO-8859-15?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would

not have to directly mention Windows. Could all the places that say PC
that are not referring to Personal Computers in general be changed to
Win or Windows.

That's bikeshedding. If the name stops you from building your own
binaries, you should use prebuilt binaries, or read the documentation.

Regards,
Martin

[Grant Edwards]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

On 2008-07-18, Martin v. Löwis <martin@v.loewi s.dewrote:

>Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so
>they would not have to directly mention Windows. Could all the
>places that say PC that are not referring to Personal
>Computers in general be changed to Win or Windows.

>
That's bikeshedding.

:)

I had to look that one up.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! An INK-LING? Sure --
at TAKE one!! Did you BUY any
visi.com COMMUNIST UNIFORMS??

[Lie]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

On Jul 19, 6:14 am, Derek Martin <c...@pizzashac k.orgwrote:

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
not have to directly mention Windows.

>
Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC.  Of
course, all IBM PCs ran MS-DOS, since that's how IBM sold them...
Then others started to build copies the IBM PC based on Intel
hardware, and the resulting class of computers was called,
collectively, "PC Clones" -- shortened to PCs -- by the industry and
its market.  Then companies like AMD and Cyrix started building
Intel-compatible CPUs, and the term PC was extended to include systems
built using those architectures.  Eventually Windows was released, and
PCs became Windows boxen running on Intel-compatible hardware, and I
personally know no one who doesn't use the term that way...
>
Much like the English word "bank" (and numerous others), the term "PC"
has come to have several meanings, one of which is the above.  You may
not like it, but we're pretty much stuck with the term, so you may as
well get used to it.
>
--
Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack. org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
>
 application_pgp-signature_part
1KDownload

That's not the point, PC is personal computer, a computer that is
owned personally, instead of being owned by a department, a company, a
government, etc. IBM PC is one of the first computers that ordinary
people could possess, when IBM-clones appeared on the market, they're
referred as PCs too because they are Personal Computer, a computer
that is designed for personal use. The brand of the computer, the type
of processors, Operating System, etc doesn't qualify a computer as PC
or not-PC, what qualify a computer as a PC is its design and marketing
and popular usage. Design: a computer that is designed to be small,
cheap, and easy-to-use to be owned personally. Marketing: how the
computer is marketed as, the marketing people generally follows the
designer on what to mark a computer as. Popular Usage: What the people
who bought the computer used it for, this generally follows the
marketing terms used on the computer.

In short, Apple's computers (Mac, OSX) are PC too, and is not less PC
than any other PCs. In fact any computers owned and used by a person
(instead of a group of persons) is a personal computer. This way
saying windows-based computer as PC is correct, however badmouthing PC
while advertising itself is the same as badmouthing itself in its own
advertisement.

In a more programming term:

class PC(object):
def who(self):
print('I am a PC')

class IBMPC(PC):
def who(self):
super(IBMPC, self).who()
print 'My brand is IBM'

class Windows(PC):
def who(self):
super(Windows, self).who()
print 'My OS is Windows'

class Mac(PC):
def who(self):
super(Mac, self).who()

# denies thyself
print 'but I do not want to be called as PC'

print 'My OS is Mac'

Apple is an ungrateful son (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Malin_Kundang ). May they turns back to realize themselves before they
turned into a stone.

[Grant Edwards]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

On 2008-07-19, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.net com.comwrote:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:14:43 -0400, Derek Martin <code@pizzashac k.org>
declaimed the following in comp.lang.pytho n:
>

>On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
not have to directly mention Windows.

>>
>Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC. Of

>
Bah... PC was short for Personal Computer...

I had never heard PC or "Personal Computer" until the IBM-PC.
Before that, such compturs were called "micro computers"

Which term applied to the TRS-80, the Apple II, Altair even...

Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked
with varioius Commodore machines, a few Apples, and some other
CP/M systems. I never heard any of them called a 'PC'. My
recollection is that 'PC' was a term that IBM coined.

Being a computer small enough to be single-user ("personal")
vs a department-wide mini, or company-wide mainframe...

I remember those being called microcomputers. A "PC" meant an IBM.

--
Grant

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_Be=DFler?=]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

Grant Edwards schrieb:

Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked
with varioius Commodore machines,

My C64 has a label that says "Personal Computer" on it.
So a C64 is a PC.

Sebastian

[Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:02:51 -0500, Grant Edwards wrote:

On 2008-07-19, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.net com.comwrote:
>

>Which term applied to the TRS-80, the Apple II, Altair even...

>
Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked
with varioius Commodore machines, a few Apples, and some other
CP/M systems. I never heard any of them called a 'PC'. My
recollection is that 'PC' was a term that IBM coined.

The C64 that still sits on my desk has a label on it saying “commodore 64
- personal computer”.

Ciao,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch

[Duncan Booth]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch <bj_666@gmx.net wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:02:51 -0500, Grant Edwards wrote:
>

>On 2008-07-19, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.net com.comwrote:
>>

>>Which term applied to the TRS-80, the Apple II, Altair even...

>>
>Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked
>with varioius Commodore machines, a few Apples, and some other
>CP/M systems. I never heard any of them called a 'PC'. My
>recollection is that 'PC' was a term that IBM coined.

>
The C64 that still sits on my desk has a label on it saying
“commodore 64 - personal computer”.
>

and I cut my programming teeth on a Sharp MZ80K personal computer.

http://www.sharpmz.org/mz-80k/images/mz80kade1_1.jpg

[Michiel Overtoom]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

On Saturday 19 July 2008 22:30:29 Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

I still wonder who came up with the Commodore PET -- Personal
Electronic Transactor... yeesh... But the "Personal" was already in play
way back then.

Probably Chuck Peddle, Jack Tramiel or Leonard Tramiel.

For your amusement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PET_2001

Greetings,

--
"The ability of the OSS process to collect and harness
the collective IQ of thousands of individuals across
the Internet is simply amazing." - Vinod Vallopillil

http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/halloween4.html

[Derek Martin]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:34:41PM -0700, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:14:43 -0400, Derek Martin <code@pizzashac k.org>
declaimed the following in comp.lang.pytho n:
>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
not have to directly mention Windows.

Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC. Of

>
Bah... PC was short for Personal Computer...

I'm well aware... congratulations on completely missing the point. I
was describing how the term PC has become synonimous with Windows
machines.

--
Derek D. Martin

http://www.pizzashack.org/

GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D


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[Derek Martin]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 02:56:07AM -0700, Lie wrote:

On Jul 19, 6:14 am, Derek Martin <c...@pizzashac k.orgwrote:

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:
Much like the English word "bank" (and numerous others), the term "PC"
has come to have several meanings, one of which is the above.  You may
not like it, but we're pretty much stuck with the term, so you may as
well get used to it.

>
That's not the point,

It very much IS the point. Language evolves based on common usage
patterns of the people who use it. The term "PC" is commonly used in
English, in the United States and other English speaking countries, to
mean a computer running Microsoft Windows. That's a simple fact that
you can not escape, no matter how much you may not like it (it just so
happens that I also don't like it, but I realized long ago the
futility of arguing against its usage). It's still a fact, and I
described roughly how that fact came to be. It wasn't something that
Apple started; it's been used this way in increasingly common usage
for at least 20 years, although exactly what combination of hardware
and software was being refered to as a "PC" has evolved over that
timeframe.

PC was a short form of "personal computer", which is how IBM came up
with the name. Nevertheless, with the ubiquity of IBM hardware, and
subsequent popularity of clones running Microsoft operating systems,
the term "PC" has, in the present day, come to mean "a personal
computer based on Intel-compatible hardware running a flavor of
Microsoft Windows." It is used this way by the consumer computer
industry, and it is used this way by the common population. Ipso
facto "PC" means a windows box, in common English usage today.

You don't have to like it, and you don't even have to acknowledge it.
But if you choose not to, or argue against using it that way, you're
in denial, plain and simple.

--
Derek D. Martin

http://www.pizzashack.org/

GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D


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[Derek Martin]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 02:56:07AM -0700, Lie wrote:

government, etc. IBM PC is one of the first computers that ordinary
people could possess, when IBM-clones appeared on the market, they're
referred as PCs too because they are Personal Computer, a computer
that is designed for personal use.

Just to be clear, this statement is WRONG. PC-clones were so called
because they were clones of the IBM-PC. The term is very specific to
IBM-compatible hardware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pc_clone

IBM PC compatible computers are those generally similar to the
original IBM PC, XT, and AT. Such computers used to be referred to
as PC clones, or IBM clones since they almost exactly duplicated
all the significant features of the PC, XT, or AT internal design,
facilitated by various manufacturers' ability to legally reverse
engineer the BIOS through cleanroom design.

Wikipedia's article on the personal computer accurately reflects
the multiple meanings of the term, and points out the common usage
to mean a Windows box:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer

Today a PC may be a desktop computer, a laptop computer or a
tablet computer. The most common operating systems are Microsoft
Windows, Mac OS X and Linux, while the most common microprocessors
are x86 compatible CPUs. However, the term "PC" is often used
only to refer to computers running Microsoft Windows.

So please stop your whining and get used to the idea that THE REST OF
THE WORLD uses PC to mean a Windows box.

--
Derek D. Martin

http://www.pizzashack.org/

GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D


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[Lie]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

It very much IS the point. Language evolves based on common usage
patterns of the people who use it.

That is inarguably correct.

The term "PC" is commonly used in English, in the United States
and other English speaking countries, to mean a computer running
Microsoft Windows.

As far as I am aware, they're like that because most people aren't
even aware that there are other OSes than Microsoft Windows. If the
world is still back in the 80s or 90s when people that use computers
means they're knowledgeable enough about computer, PCs would be either
applied to "all kinds of small computer/microcomputer" or only to "IBM-
branded microcomputers" , the latter because PC is originally IBM's
marketing term, the former is a natural expansion of the meaning since
"Personal Computer" is a neutral term, unlike marketing terms like:
"TravelMate ", "Lifebook", "MacBook", "GeForce", etc. "Personal
Computer" is more like the term "Mobile Phone" which is brand-neutral
and is usable by any brand, regardless of how the term originated.

The reason why the world hasn't evolved to the two predictable cases
("all kinds of microcomputers" or "IBM-PC and clones"), is what I'll
explain below.

That's a simple fact that you can not escape, no matter how
much you may not like it (it just so happens that I also don't l
ike it, but I realized long ago the futility of arguing against
its usage). It's still a fact, and I described roughly how
that fact came to be.

It wasn't something that Apple started; it's been used this way
in increasingly common usage for at least 20 years, although
exactly what combination of hardware and software was being
refered to as a "PC" has evolved over that timeframe.

Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing, but the real blame
is to Microsoft's dominance, though it is without their explicit
consent, blessing, or resistance. Not entirely Microsoft's fault for
being dominant, but their dominance in the lower level users makes
those lower level user unaware of other OSes and applied the term PC
to Windows-based computers. When other OSes are gaining popularity
again (i.e. when Microsoft starts to lose its total and complete
dominance, i.e. around right now) the term's meaning become a huge
matter because people associated the term with Microsoft Windows (i.e.
software), not with IBM-PC and its clones anymore (i.e. hardware).

On Jul 21, 11:50 pm, Derek Martin <c...@pizzashac k.orgwrote:

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 02:56:07AM -0700, Lie wrote:

government, etc. IBM PC is one of the first computers that ordinary
people could possess, when IBM-clones appeared on the market, they're
referred as PCs too because they are Personal Computer, a computer
that is designed for personal use.

>
Just to be clear, this statement is WRONG.  PC-clones were so called
because they were clones of the IBM-PC.  The term is very specific to
IBM-compatible hardware.  
>
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pc_clone
>
    IBM PC compatible computers are those generally similar to the
    original IBM PC, XT, and AT. Such computers used to be referred to
    as PC clones, or IBM clones since they almost exactly duplicated
    all the significant features of the PC, XT, or AT internal design,
    facilitated by various manufacturers' ability to legally reverse
    engineer the BIOS through cleanroom design.
>
Wikipedia's article on the personal computer accurately reflects
the multiple meanings of the term, and points out the common usage
to mean a Windows box:
>
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer
>
    Today a PC may be a desktop computer, a laptop computer or a
    tablet computer. The most common operating systems are Microsoft
    Windows, Mac OS X and Linux, while the most common microprocessors
    are x86 compatible CPUs.  However, the term "PC" is often used
    only to refer to computers running Microsoft Windows.
>
So please stop your whining and get used to the idea that THE REST OF
THE WORLD uses PC to mean a Windows box.

The rest of the world? Not in this part of the world, not in my whole
country at the least...

[Derek Martin]

Re: Change PC to Win or Windows

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:32:00PM -0700, Lie wrote:

The term "PC" is commonly used in English, in the United States
and other English speaking countries, to mean a computer running
Microsoft Windows.

>
As far as I am aware, they're like that because most people aren't
even aware that there are other OSes than Microsoft Windows.

You are missing two points.

The first one: It doesn't matter what the reasons are for the
terminology to be common. It only matters that it IS common. It is;
and it is therefore "correct" in the sense that it conveys a meaning
to the overwhelming majority of English speakers, which is the
intended one.

As for the question of whether or not it is appropriate to refer to
Windows installations as "PC", it's as simple as that. It is, by
definition (via common usage). That is what this thread is about.

The reason why the world hasn't evolved to the two predictable cases
("all kinds of microcomputers" or "IBM-PC and clones"), is what I'll
explain below.

Your explanation is irrelevant to the argument of whether or not the
term PC is an inappropriate term to describe a Windows installation,
which is what this thread is about. That is the premise put forth by
the OP, and that is the notion to which I am responding. It simply is
not wrong or inappropriate in any sense; it is in fact correct,
regardless of how the meaning or usage resulted, and regardless of any
ADDITIONAL meanings the term may have.

For what it's worth, your explanation is also WRONG; the term PC
began to be popularly used in the United States to describe
Intel-based Microsoft machines when there was a proliferation of other
kinds of personal computers available to consumers. When it was first
used this way, the IBM PC was *NOT* the most popular personal computer...
the Commodore 64 was. It dates from a time when the Commodore VIC-20
and C64, Atari 400 and 800, Timex Sinclair, and other computers were
all very popluar home machines.

The term probably originated primarily because IBM chose to name their
computer the IBM PC, and because of Americans' predeliction to
abbreviate everything that's more than 2 syllables. ;-)

It wasn't something that Apple started; it's been used this way
in increasingly common usage for at least 20 years, although
exactly what combination of hardware and software was being
refered to as a "PC" has evolved over that timeframe.

>
Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing,

And here is the last point you are missing: Apple does no such
thing. They are only using a term in a way that has previously been
popularized by the computer industry as a whole, and its market (i.e.
consumers, predominantly American consumers historically) for
*DECADES*. If I'm not mistaken, their ad campaign mentioning PCs is
less than 10 years old (though I can't quickly find any references as
to the date). The popularization of the term PC to refer to
Intel-compatible machines running Microsoft OSes PREDATES APPLE'S AD
CAMPAIGN BY OVER 10 YEARS.

Therefore none of your points are valid or relevant, as to the
question of whether the usage of the term "PC" to describe windows
builds of Python is appropriate.

Can we return to the subject of Python now?

--
Derek D. Martin

http://www.pizzashack.org/

GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D


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