Python and Flaming Thunder

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  • Paul McGuire
    #16
    Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

    On May 13, 8:32 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
    Don't let yourself be irritated by castironpi
    >
    I'm not the sort to get irritated by anyone.  There is value in all
    interaction.
    Not this interaction, I'm afraid. What irritates *me* about
    castironpi is that he uses a chatterbot to clutter up the threads
    here. If you go back to his postings from a year ago (and selected
    ones since), his comments are coherent and sensible. These rambling
    stream-of-consciousness rants about t.v.'s and coffee are (I guess)
    his idea of a joke. But they are certainly not worth your time in
    trying to respond to them.

    -- Paul

      Comment

      • Dave Parker
        #17
        Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

        On May 13, 7:44 am, castiro...@gmai l.com wrote:
        I am not convinced that the colorspace occupies three dimensions necessarily.
        Apparently there are some people -- called tetrachromats -- who can
        see color in four dimensions. They have extra sets of cones in their
        retinas containing a different photopigment. So, the dimensions of
        color appear to be an artifact of our visual systems, and not inherent
        in the colors themselves which are linear (one-dimensional) in
        frequency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy

          Comment

          • castironpi@gmail.com
            #18
            Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

            On May 13, 9:05 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
            On May 13, 7:44 am, castiro...@gmai l.com wrote:
            >
            I am not convinced that the colorspace occupies three dimensions necessarily.
            >
            Apparently there are some people -- called tetrachromats -- who can
            see color in four dimensions.  They have extra sets of cones in their
            retinas containing a different photopigment.  So, the dimensions of
            color appear to be an artifact of our visual systems, and not inherent
            in the colors themselves which are linear (one-dimensional) in
            frequency.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy
            My conspiracy theorists know too much. They would question that
            mathematical claim of science, that retinas only detect one dimension
            of one force. Are we asking if something like that is fundamental to
            life? I have been very sceptical about emperical claims, especially
            since I just try to render stuff and play Tron.

              Comment

              • hdante
                #19
                Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                On May 13, 10:58 am, Paul McGuire <pt...@austin.r r.comwrote:
                On May 13, 8:32 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
                >
                Don't let yourself be irritated by castironpi
                >
                I'm not the sort to get irritated by anyone.  There is value in all
                interaction.
                >
                Not this interaction, I'm afraid.  What irritates *me* about
                castironpi is that he uses a chatterbot to clutter up the threads
                here.  If you go back to his postings from a year ago (and selected
                ones since), his comments are coherent and sensible.  These rambling
                stream-of-consciousness rants about t.v.'s and coffee are (I guess)
                his idea of a joke.  But they are certainly not worth your time in
                trying to respond to them.
                >
                -- Paul
                I don't think castironpi so annoying that I should filter its
                messages. It would be enough if he were better tuned. He is much
                smarter than the emacs shrink, for example. :-P

                The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                programming languages.

                  Comment

                  • castironpi@gmail.com
                    #20
                    Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                    On May 13, 9:34 am, hdante <hda...@gmail.c omwrote:
                    On May 13, 10:58 am, Paul McGuire <pt...@austin.r r.comwrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    On May 13, 8:32 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
                    >
                    Don't let yourself be irritated by castironpi
                    >
                    I'm not the sort to get irritated by anyone.  There is value in all
                    interaction.
                    >
                    Not this interaction, I'm afraid.  What irritates *me* about
                    castironpi is that he uses a chatterbot to clutter up the threads
                    here.  If you go back to his postings from a year ago (and selected
                    ones since), his comments are coherent and sensible.  These rambling
                    stream-of-consciousness rants about t.v.'s and coffee are (I guess)
                    his idea of a joke.  But they are certainly not worth your time in
                    trying to respond to them.
                    >
                    -- Paul
                    >
                     I don't think castironpi so annoying that I should filter its
                    messages. It would be enough if he were better tuned. He is much
                    smarter than the emacs shrink, for example. :-P
                    >
                     The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                    software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                    specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                    programming languages.- Hide quoted text -
                    >
                    - Show quoted text -
                    What is a tank a tank of? Even if it does, developer communities are
                    willing to sustain it. That's a pretty colinear judgement, that I
                    find the community sustainable. Does anyone commute to out of
                    control? What is to out? No jumping down thrown. Tut tut.

                      Comment

                      • Diez B. Roggisch
                        #21
                        Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                        Dave Parker wrote:
                        >Don't let yourself be irritated by castironpi
                        >
                        I'm not the sort to get irritated by anyone. There is value in all
                        interaction. Flaming Thunder is itself the averaging of interactions
                        with many computer languages and conversations with many people, so as
                        to create a language that allows people to tell a computer what they
                        want it to do, without having to know very much about how the computer
                        does it.
                        >
                        Well, if your actual goal is to create traffic to promote your own product
                        (I presume so from your mailaddress) then I'm not surprised that you not
                        *really* care who is responding how...

                        Diez

                          Comment

                          • castironpi@gmail.com
                            #22
                            Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                            On May 13, 9:45 am, castiro...@gmai l.com wrote:
                            On May 13, 9:34 am, hdante <hda...@gmail.c omwrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            On May 13, 10:58 am, Paul McGuire <pt...@austin.r r.comwrote:
                            >
                            On May 13, 8:32 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
                            >
                            Don't let yourself be irritated by castironpi
                            >
                            I'm not the sort to get irritated by anyone.  There is value in all
                            interaction.
                            >
                            Not this interaction, I'm afraid.  What irritates *me* about
                            castironpi is that he uses a chatterbot to clutter up the threads
                            here.  If you go back to his postings from a year ago (and selected
                            ones since), his comments are coherent and sensible.  These rambling
                            stream-of-consciousness rants about t.v.'s and coffee are (I guess)
                            his idea of a joke.  But they are certainly not worth your time in
                            trying to respond to them.
                            >
                            -- Paul
                            >
                             I don't think castironpi so annoying that I should filter its
                            messages. It would be enough if he were better tuned. He is much
                            smarter than the emacs shrink, for example. :-P
                            >
                             The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                            software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                            specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                            programming languages.- Hide quoted text -
                            >
                            - Show quoted text -
                            >
                            What is a tank a tank of?  Even if it does, developer communities are
                            willing to sustain it.  That's a pretty colinear judgement, that I
                            find the community sustainable.  Does anyone commute to out of
                            control?  What is to out?  No jumping down thrown.  Tut tut.- Hide quoted text -
                            >
                            - Show quoted text -
                            Now, speaking of thrown: do try-di-di*3es not mean what we're thap
                            that they used to!

                            <celebration>

                              Comment

                              • Dave Parker
                                #23
                                Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                                The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                programming languages.
                                Perhaps. Flaming Thunder is only $19.95 per year for an individual
                                (and even less per individual for site licenses), which is less than
                                the cost of just one book on Python.

                                I think that many people will find that Flaming Thunder is easier to
                                use and understand than Python -- so for many people the amount of
                                time they save will be worth more than the cost of Flaming Thunder
                                (unless, of course, their time is worth $0).

                                Also, several users have rewritten their Python programs in Flaming
                                Thunder, and found that Flaming Thunder was 5 to 10 times faster
                                (Flaming Thunder compiles to native executables). So again, since
                                many people value their time at more than $0, I think that many people
                                will find that Flaming Thunder is worth $19.95 per year.

                                Plus, me getting paid to work on Flaming Thunder is far more
                                motivating than me not getting paid to work on Python. This weekend,
                                Python users will still be debating how to fix awkwardnesses in the
                                languages (such as FOR loops where you're just counting the loops and
                                not referencing the loop variable) -- but Flaming Thunder users will
                                be getting work done using the REPEAT n TIMES constructs that I'll be
                                implementing.

                                Python has been around about 15 years, yet still has those
                                awkwardnesses. Flaming Thunder has been out less than 6 months and
                                those awkwardnesses are already getting fixed. The difference: I
                                can't afford to ignore users.

                                But the future is one of the hardest things to predict, so we'll see.

                                On May 13, 8:34 am, hdante <hda...@gmail.c omwrote:
                                On May 13, 10:58 am, Paul McGuire <pt...@austin.r r.comwrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                On May 13, 8:32 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
                                >
                                Don't let yourself be irritated by castironpi
                                >
                                I'm not the sort to get irritated by anyone.  There is value in all
                                interaction.
                                >
                                Not this interaction, I'm afraid.  What irritates *me* about
                                castironpi is that he uses a chatterbot to clutter up the threads
                                here.  If you go back to his postings from a year ago (and selected
                                ones since), his comments are coherent and sensible.  These rambling
                                stream-of-consciousness rants about t.v.'s and coffee are (I guess)
                                his idea of a joke.  But they are certainly not worth your time in
                                trying to respond to them.
                                >
                                -- Paul
                                >
                                 I don't think castironpi so annoying that I should filter its
                                messages. It would be enough if he were better tuned. He is much
                                smarter than the emacs shrink, for example. :-P
                                >
                                 The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                programming languages.- Hide quoted text -
                                >
                                - Show quoted text -

                                  Comment

                                  • castironpi@gmail.com
                                    #24
                                    Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                                    On May 13, 10:24 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com >
                                    wrote:
                                     The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                    software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                    specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                    programming languages.
                                    >
                                    Perhaps.  Flaming Thunder is only $19.95 per year for an individual
                                    (and even less per individual for site licenses), which is less than
                                    the cost of just one book on Python.
                                    >
                                    I think that many people will find that Flaming Thunder is easier to
                                    use and understand than Python -- so for many people the amount of
                                    time they save will be worth more than the cost of Flaming Thunder
                                    (unless, of course, their time is worth $0).
                                    >
                                    Also, several users have rewritten their Python programs in Flaming
                                    Thunder, and found that Flaming Thunder was 5 to 10 times faster
                                    (Flaming Thunder compiles to native executables).  So again, since
                                    many people value their time at more than $0, I think that many people
                                    will find that Flaming Thunder is worth $19.95 per year.
                                    >
                                    Plus, me getting paid to work on Flaming Thunder is far more
                                    motivating than me not getting paid to work on Python.  This weekend,
                                    Python users will still be debating how to fix awkwardnesses in the
                                    languages (such as FOR loops where you're just counting the loops and
                                    not referencing the loop variable) -- but Flaming Thunder users will
                                    be getting work done using the REPEAT n TIMES constructs that I'll be
                                    implementing.
                                    >
                                    Python has been around about 15 years, yet still has those
                                    awkwardnesses.  Flaming Thunder has been out less than 6 months and
                                    those awkwardnesses are already getting fixed.  The difference: I
                                    can't afford to ignore users.
                                    >
                                    But the future is one of the hardest things to predict, so we'll see.
                                    >
                                    On May 13, 8:34 am, hdante <hda...@gmail.c omwrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    On May 13, 10:58 am, Paul McGuire <pt...@austin.r r.comwrote:
                                    >
                                    On May 13, 8:32 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
                                    >
                                    Don't let yourself be irritated by castironpi
                                    >
                                    I'm not the sort to get irritated by anyone.  There is value in all
                                    interaction.
                                    >
                                    Not this interaction, I'm afraid.  What irritates *me* about
                                    castironpi is that he uses a chatterbot to clutter up the threads
                                    here.  If you go back to his postings from a year ago (and selected
                                    ones since), his comments are coherent and sensible.  These rambling
                                    stream-of-consciousness rants about t.v.'s and coffee are (I guess)
                                    his idea of a joke.  But they are certainly not worth your time in
                                    trying to respond to them.
                                    >
                                    -- Paul
                                    >
                                     I don't think castironpi so annoying that I should filter its
                                    messages. It would be enough if he were better tuned. He is much
                                    smarter than the emacs shrink, for example. :-P
                                    >
                                     The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                    software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                    specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                    programming languages.- Hide quoted text -
                                    >
                                    - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
                                    >
                                    - Show quoted text -
                                    How come no one said lightning?

                                      Comment

                                      • castironpi@gmail.com
                                        #25
                                        Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                                        On May 13, 10:24 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com >
                                        wrote:
                                         The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                        software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                        specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                        programming languages.
                                        >
                                        Perhaps.  Flaming Thunder is only $19.95 per year for an individual
                                        (and even less per individual for site licenses), which is less than
                                        the cost of just one book on Python.
                                        >
                                        I think that many people will find that Flaming Thunder is easier to
                                        use and understand than Python -- so for many people the amount of
                                        time they save will be worth more than the cost of Flaming Thunder
                                        (unless, of course, their time is worth $0).
                                        >
                                        Also, several users have rewritten their Python programs in Flaming
                                        Thunder, and found that Flaming Thunder was 5 to 10 times faster
                                        (Flaming Thunder compiles to native executables).  So again, since
                                        many people value their time at more than $0, I think that many people
                                        will find that Flaming Thunder is worth $19.95 per year.
                                        >
                                        Plus, me getting paid to work on Flaming Thunder is far more
                                        motivating than me not getting paid to work on Python.  This weekend,
                                        Python users will still be debating how to fix awkwardnesses in the
                                        languages (such as FOR loops where you're just counting the loops and
                                        not referencing the loop variable) -- but Flaming Thunder users will
                                        be getting work done using the REPEAT n TIMES constructs that I'll be
                                        implementing.
                                        >
                                        Python has been around about 15 years, yet still has those
                                        awkwardnesses.  Flaming Thunder has been out less than 6 months and
                                        those awkwardnesses are already getting fixed.  The difference: I
                                        can't afford to ignore users.
                                        >
                                        But the future is one of the hardest things to predict, so we'll see.
                                        >
                                        On May 13, 8:34 am, hdante <hda...@gmail.c omwrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        On May 13, 10:58 am, Paul McGuire <pt...@austin.r r.comwrote:
                                        >
                                        On May 13, 8:32 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
                                        >
                                        Don't let yourself be irritated by castironpi
                                        >
                                        I'm not the sort to get irritated by anyone.  There is value in all
                                        interaction.
                                        >
                                        Not this interaction, I'm afraid.  What irritates *me* about
                                        castironpi is that he uses a chatterbot to clutter up the threads
                                        here.  If you go back to his postings from a year ago (and selected
                                        ones since), his comments are coherent and sensible.  These rambling
                                        stream-of-consciousness rants about t.v.'s and coffee are (I guess)
                                        his idea of a joke.  But they are certainly not worth your time in
                                        trying to respond to them.
                                        >
                                        -- Paul
                                        >
                                         I don't think castironpi so annoying that I should filter its
                                        messages. It would be enough if he were better tuned. He is much
                                        smarter than the emacs shrink, for example. :-P
                                        >
                                         The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                        software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                        specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                        programming languages.- Hide quoted text -
                                        >
                                        - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
                                        >
                                        - Show quoted text -
                                        What is about $0?

                                          Comment

                                          • castironpi@gmail.com
                                            #26
                                            Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                                            On May 13, 10:24 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com >
                                            wrote:
                                             The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                            software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                            specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                            programming languages.
                                            >
                                            Perhaps.  Flaming Thunder is only $19.95 per year for an individual
                                            (and even less per individual for site licenses), which is less than
                                            the cost of just one book on Python.
                                            >
                                            I think that many people will find that Flaming Thunder is easier to
                                            use and understand than Python -- so for many people the amount of
                                            time they save will be worth more than the cost of Flaming Thunder
                                            (unless, of course, their time is worth $0).
                                            >
                                            Also, several users have rewritten their Python programs in Flaming
                                            Thunder, and found that Flaming Thunder was 5 to 10 times faster
                                            (Flaming Thunder compiles to native executables).  So again, since
                                            many people value their time at more than $0, I think that many people
                                            will find that Flaming Thunder is worth $19.95 per year.
                                            >
                                            Plus, me getting paid to work on Flaming Thunder is far more
                                            motivating than me not getting paid to work on Python.  This weekend,
                                            Python users will still be debating how to fix awkwardnesses in the
                                            languages (such as FOR loops where you're just counting the loops and
                                            not referencing the loop variable) -- but Flaming Thunder users will
                                            be getting work done using the REPEAT n TIMES constructs that I'll be
                                            implementing.
                                            >
                                            Python has been around about 15 years, yet still has those
                                            awkwardnesses.  Flaming Thunder has been out less than 6 months and
                                            those awkwardnesses are already getting fixed.  The difference: I
                                            can't afford to ignore users.
                                            >
                                            But the future is one of the hardest things to predict, so we'll see.
                                            >
                                            On May 13, 8:34 am, hdante <hda...@gmail.c omwrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            On May 13, 10:58 am, Paul McGuire <pt...@austin.r r.comwrote:
                                            >
                                            On May 13, 8:32 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
                                            >
                                            Don't let yourself be irritated by castironpi
                                            >
                                            I'm not the sort to get irritated by anyone.  There is value in all
                                            interaction.
                                            >
                                            Not this interaction, I'm afraid.  What irritates *me* about
                                            castironpi is that he uses a chatterbot to clutter up the threads
                                            here.  If you go back to his postings from a year ago (and selected
                                            ones since), his comments are coherent and sensible.  These rambling
                                            stream-of-consciousness rants about t.v.'s and coffee are (I guess)
                                            his idea of a joke.  But they are certainly not worth your time in
                                            trying to respond to them.
                                            >
                                            -- Paul
                                            >
                                             I don't think castironpi so annoying that I should filter its
                                            messages. It would be enough if he were better tuned. He is much
                                            smarter than the emacs shrink, for example. :-P
                                            >
                                             The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                            software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                            specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                            programming languages.- Hide quoted text -
                                            >
                                            - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
                                            >
                                            - Show quoted text -
                                            Flaming Thunder, the lightning one, looked like [ 255, 210, 255 ], but
                                            the next thing I thought was -40 on green.

                                              Comment

                                              • castironpi@gmail.com
                                                #27
                                                Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                                                On May 13, 10:35 am, castiro...@gmai l.com wrote:
                                                On May 13, 10:24 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com >
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                 The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                                software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                                specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                                programming languages.
                                                >
                                                Perhaps.  Flaming Thunder is only $19.95 per year for an individual
                                                (and even less per individual for site licenses), which is less than
                                                the cost of just one book on Python.
                                                >
                                                I think that many people will find that Flaming Thunder is easier to
                                                use and understand than Python -- so for many people the amount of
                                                time they save will be worth more than the cost of Flaming Thunder
                                                (unless, of course, their time is worth $0).
                                                >
                                                Also, several users have rewritten their Python programs in Flaming
                                                Thunder, and found that Flaming Thunder was 5 to 10 times faster
                                                (Flaming Thunder compiles to native executables).  So again, since
                                                many people value their time at more than $0, I think that many people
                                                will find that Flaming Thunder is worth $19.95 per year.
                                                >
                                                Plus, me getting paid to work on Flaming Thunder is far more
                                                motivating than me not getting paid to work on Python.  This weekend,
                                                Python users will still be debating how to fix awkwardnesses in the
                                                languages (such as FOR loops where you're just counting the loops and
                                                not referencing the loop variable) -- but Flaming Thunder users will
                                                be getting work done using the REPEAT n TIMES constructs that I'll be
                                                implementing.
                                                >
                                                Python has been around about 15 years, yet still has those
                                                awkwardnesses.  Flaming Thunder has been out less than 6 months and
                                                those awkwardnesses are already getting fixed.  The difference: I
                                                can't afford to ignore users.
                                                >
                                                But the future is one of the hardest things to predict, so we'll see.
                                                >
                                                On May 13, 8:34 am, hdante <hda...@gmail.c omwrote:
                                                >
                                                On May 13, 10:58 am, Paul McGuire <pt...@austin.r r.comwrote:
                                                >
                                                On May 13, 8:32 am, Dave Parker <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
                                                >
                                                Don't let yourself be irritated by castironpi
                                                >
                                                I'm not the sort to get irritated by anyone.  There is value in all
                                                interaction.
                                                >
                                                Not this interaction, I'm afraid.  What irritates *me* about
                                                castironpi is that he uses a chatterbot to clutter up the threads
                                                here.  If you go back to his postings from a year ago (and selected
                                                ones since), his comments are coherent and sensible.  These rambling
                                                stream-of-consciousness rants about t.v.'s and coffee are (I guess)
                                                his idea of a joke.  But they are certainly not worth your time in
                                                trying to respond to them.
                                                >
                                                -- Paul
                                                >
                                                 I don't think castironpi so annoying that I should filter its
                                                messages. It would be enough if he were better tuned. He is much
                                                smarter than the emacs shrink, for example. :-P
                                                >
                                                 The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                                software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                                specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                                programming languages.- Hide quoted text -
                                                >
                                                - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
                                                >
                                                - Show quoted text -
                                                >
                                                Flaming Thunder, the lightning one, looked like [ 255, 210, 255 ], but
                                                the next thing I thought was -40 on green.- Hide quoted text -
                                                >
                                                - Show quoted text -
                                                Now get this: I am talking to someone. #define someone now.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Dan Upton
                                                    #28
                                                    Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                                                    On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Dave Parker
                                                    <daveparker@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
                                                    The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                                    software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                                    specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                                    programming languages.
                                                    >
                                                    Perhaps. Flaming Thunder is only $19.95 per year for an individual
                                                    (and even less per individual for site licenses), which is less than
                                                    the cost of just one book on Python.
                                                    Bah, subscription for a programming language? As far as I'm
                                                    concerned, that's reason enough not to bother with it. Paying a
                                                    one-time fee, or even once per upgrade, for a full-featured IDE and
                                                    lots of support tools is painful but at least justifiable, whereas
                                                    paying a yearly license just to even be able to try something out when
                                                    there are so many free, sufficient options... There was an article
                                                    on/in Wired not so long ago about the economics of free, and how
                                                    there's a huge difference mentally between free and not-free, even if
                                                    the practical difference is "free" and "$0.01." (Also, I assume
                                                    hdante meant, at least partly, free as in speech, not free as in
                                                    beer.)

                                                    As an aside, I clearly haven't written anything in FT, but looking at
                                                    your examples I don't know that I would want to--there's something
                                                    that feels very unnatural about writing English as code. It also
                                                    somehow seems a bit verbose, while one of the strengths of something
                                                    like Python (since that's what you're comparing it to) is rapid
                                                    implementation. Just using your "Set ... to" idiom, rather than a
                                                    regular = assignment, makes things much more wordy, without improving
                                                    readability. Some of your other structures are awkward, for instance
                                                    "Something is a function doing" Again, more text with arguably no gain
                                                    in readability.

                                                    Just my two cents, anyway. I now return you to the resident madman,
                                                    who I see has sent 4 or 5 messages while I was typing this one...

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Torsten Bronger
                                                        #29
                                                        Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                                                        Hallöchen!

                                                        Dave Parker writes:
                                                        [...]
                                                        >
                                                        Perhaps. Flaming Thunder is only $19.95 per year for an
                                                        individual (and even less per individual for site licenses), which
                                                        is less than the cost of just one book on Python.
                                                        First of all: Although I consider myself part of the Free Software
                                                        community, I have no problems at all with such a licence model.

                                                        But ...
                                                        [...]
                                                        >
                                                        Plus, me getting paid to work on Flaming Thunder is far more
                                                        motivating than me not getting paid to work on Python. This
                                                        weekend, Python users will still be debating how to fix
                                                        awkwardnesses in the languages (such as FOR loops where you're
                                                        just counting the loops and not referencing the loop variable) --
                                                        but Flaming Thunder users will be getting work done using the
                                                        REPEAT n TIMES constructs that I'll be implementing.
                                                        Well, this is besides the point in my opinion. First, what you
                                                        consider a wart may be loved by someone else. I for example would
                                                        consider a "REPEAT n TIMES" feature as Ruby offers it (and soon FT
                                                        apparently) ugly because it is superfluous.

                                                        And secondly, *every* language has their warts. So many languages
                                                        start as clean babies because they offer little and focus on a
                                                        specific domain. But grown up, they include the same dirty tricks
                                                        and suprising corners as the big languages.

                                                        For me being a physicist and a hobby programmer, FT still is a toy
                                                        language. Cute but titchy. It surely has its applications, but if
                                                        you produce pocket calculators, don't tell a computer manufacturer
                                                        that your machines are much simpler to use. Instead, both things
                                                        simply have their purposes.
                                                        Python has been around about 15 years, yet still has those
                                                        awkwardnesses. Flaming Thunder has been out less than 6 months
                                                        and those awkwardnesses are already getting fixed. The
                                                        difference: I can't afford to ignore users.
                                                        Really, the Python developers listen *very* carefully what the users
                                                        want. Of course, the response time in Python is months rather than
                                                        days, which has turned out to be a good thing more than once.

                                                        Tschö,
                                                        Torsten.

                                                        --
                                                        Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus
                                                        Jabber ID: bronger@jabber. org
                                                        (See http://ime.webhop.org for further contact info.)

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Dave Parker
                                                            #30
                                                            Re: Python and Flaming Thunder

                                                            ... there's something that feels very unnatural about writing English as code.

                                                            I think it is ironic that you think Flaming Thunder is unnatural
                                                            because it is more English-like, when being English-like was one of
                                                            Python's goals: "Python was designed to be a highly readable language.
                                                            It aims toward an uncluttered visual layout, using English keywords
                                                            frequently where other languages use punctuation."
                                                            Python (programming language) - Wikipedia
                                                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(programming_language)#Syntax_and_semantics

                                                            Just using your "Set ... to" idiom, rather than a
                                                            regular = assignment, makes things much more wordy, without improving
                                                            readability.
                                                            I think it does improve readability, especially for people who are not
                                                            very fluent mathematically.

                                                            Also, in Python how do you assign a symbolic equation to a variable?
                                                            Like this?

                                                            QuadraticEquati on = a*x^2 + b*x + c = 0

                                                            Set statements avoid the confusion of multiple equal signs when
                                                            manipulating symbolic equations:

                                                            Set QuadraticEquati on to a*x^2 + b*x + c = 0.

                                                            On May 13, 9:50 am, "Dan Upton" <up...@virginia .eduwrote:
                                                            On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Dave Parker
                                                            >
                                                            <davepar...@fla mingthunder.com wrote:
                                                             The "Flaming Thunder" looks promising, but without being free
                                                             software, it's unlikely it will create a large developer community,
                                                             specially considering both free general purpose and scientific
                                                             programming languages.
                                                            >
                                                             Perhaps.  Flaming Thunder is only $19.95 per year for an individual
                                                             (and even less per individual for site licenses), which is less than
                                                             the cost of just one book on Python.
                                                            >
                                                            Bah, subscription for a programming language?  As far as I'm
                                                            concerned, that's reason enough not to bother with it.  Paying a
                                                            one-time fee, or even once per upgrade, for a full-featured IDE and
                                                            lots of support tools is painful but at least justifiable, whereas
                                                            paying a yearly license just to even be able to try something out when
                                                            there are so many free, sufficient options... There was an article
                                                            on/in Wired not so long ago about the economics of free, and how
                                                            there's a huge difference mentally between free and not-free, even if
                                                            the practical difference is "free" and "$0.01."  (Also, I assume
                                                            hdante meant, at least partly, free as in speech, not free as in
                                                            beer.)
                                                            >
                                                            As an aside, I clearly haven't written anything in FT, but looking at
                                                            your examples I don't know that I would want to--there's something
                                                            that feels very unnatural about writing English as code.  It also
                                                            somehow seems a bit verbose, while one of the strengths of something
                                                            like Python (since that's what you're comparing it to) is rapid
                                                            implementation.  Just using your "Set ... to" idiom, rather than a
                                                            regular = assignment, makes things much more wordy, without improving
                                                            readability.  Some of your other structures are awkward, for instance
                                                            "Something is a function doing" Again, more text with arguably no gain
                                                            in readability.
                                                            >
                                                            Just my two cents, anyway.  I now return you to the resident madman,
                                                            who I see has sent 4 or 5 messages while I was typing this one...

                                                              Comment

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