Re: Psyco alternative

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  • sturlamolden
    #1

    Re: Psyco alternative

    On Mar 27, 4:44 pm, Jean-Paul Calderone <exar...@divmod .comwrote:
    PyPy is self-hosted and has been for some time (a year or so?).
    This is technically not correct. PyPy is hosted by RPython, which is
    not Python but a different language all together.






    Tags: None
    • Steve Holden
      #2
      Re: Psyco alternative

      sturlamolden wrote:
      On Mar 27, 4:44 pm, Jean-Paul Calderone <exar...@divmod .comwrote:
      >
      >PyPy is self-hosted and has been for some time (a year or so?).
      >
      This is technically not correct. PyPy is hosted by RPython, which is
      not Python but a different language all together.
      >
      I believe, without the benefit of recent experience, that the R stands
      for Restricted. Thus and RPython program must of necessity also be a
      valid Python program. Or do you know something I don't?

      regards
      Steve
      --
      Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
      Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/

        Comment

        • sturlamolden
          #3
          Re: Psyco alternative

          On Apr 25, 2:15 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenwe b.comwrote:
          I believe, without the benefit of recent experience, that the R stands
          for Restricted. Thus and RPython program must of necessity also be a
          valid Python program. Or do you know something I don't?
          That is correct. But RPython is not anything like Python, I would not
          even call it a dynamically typed language. It is actually more like
          Fortran 77 with a Python look and feel.

            Comment

            • Steve Holden
              #4
              Re: Psyco alternative

              sturlamolden wrote:
              On Apr 25, 2:15 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenwe b.comwrote:
              >
              >I believe, without the benefit of recent experience, that the R stands
              >for Restricted. Thus and RPython program must of necessity also be a
              >valid Python program. Or do you know something I don't?
              >
              That is correct. But RPython is not anything like Python, I would not
              even call it a dynamically typed language. It is actually more like
              Fortran 77 with a Python look and feel.
              That seems a little harsh: it's Python-in-a-strait-jacket.

              The fact remains that since RPython programs also run under the standard
              interpreter (albeit a factor of maybe a hundred times more slowly) their
              claim of self-hosting is valid.

              regards
              Steve
              --
              Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
              Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/

                Comment

                • sturlamolden
                  #5
                  Re: Psyco alternative

                  On Apr 25, 3:27 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenwe b.comwrote:
                  That seems a little harsh: it's Python-in-a-strait-jacket.
                  >
                  The fact remains that since RPython programs also run under the standard
                  interpreter (albeit a factor of maybe a hundred times more slowly) their
                  claim of self-hosting is valid.
                  What is the smallest subset of Python needed to make a Turing complete
                  computer language? And would you still call that Python?

                    Comment

                    • Steve Holden
                      #6
                      Re: Psyco alternative

                      sturlamolden wrote:
                      On Apr 25, 3:27 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenwe b.comwrote:
                      >
                      >That seems a little harsh: it's Python-in-a-strait-jacket.
                      >>
                      >The fact remains that since RPython programs also run under the standard
                      >interpreter (albeit a factor of maybe a hundred times more slowly) their
                      >claim of self-hosting is valid.
                      >
                      What is the smallest subset of Python needed to make a Turing complete
                      computer language? And would you still call that Python?
                      >
                      That's completely irrelevant. Let's just step back a bit. You started
                      this by saying:
                      On Mar 27, 4:44 pm, Jean-Paul Calderone <exar...@divmod .comwrote:
                      >
                      PyPy is self-hosted and has been for some time (a year or so?).
                      >
                      This is technically not correct. PyPy is hosted by RPython, which is
                      not Python but a different language all together.
                      I am simply pointing out that RPython is used for efficiency, not to do
                      things that can't be done in standard Python. Since everything that is
                      done in RPython can also be done, albeit more slowly, in standard
                      Python, the claim to be self-hosting is valid despite your disagreement.

                      In other words, you can take the PyPy translator and run it on CPython.
                      The fact that they choose to use restricted Python instead in their
                      "production " system is merely an optimization.

                      regards
                      Steve
                      --
                      Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
                      Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/

                        Comment

                        • sturlamolden
                          #7
                          Re: Psyco alternative

                          On Apr 25, 4:57 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenwe b.comwrote:
                          I am simply pointing out that RPython is used for efficiency, not to do
                          things that can't be done in standard Python.
                          Yes. And if we only use a very small subset of Python, it would in
                          effect be a form of assembly code. Hence my comment about the Turing
                          complete subset.

                            Comment

                            • Steve Holden
                              #8
                              Re: Psyco alternative

                              sturlamolden wrote:
                              On Apr 25, 4:57 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenwe b.comwrote:
                              >
                              >I am simply pointing out that RPython is used for efficiency, not to do
                              >things that can't be done in standard Python.
                              >
                              Yes. And if we only use a very small subset of Python, it would in
                              effect be a form of assembly code. Hence my comment about the Turing
                              complete subset.
                              >
                              Since you obviously insist on having the last word I promise not to
                              reply to your next post.

                              regards
                              Steve
                              --
                              Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
                              Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/

                                Comment

                                • Jacob Hallen
                                  #9
                                  Re: Psyco alternative

                                  In article <a03264a0-a11f-49d9-96c6-b56a82c0348c@56 g2000hsm.google groups.com>,
                                  sturlamolden <sturlamolden@y ahoo.nowrote:
                                  >On Mar 27, 4:44 pm, Jean-Paul Calderone <exar...@divmod .comwrote:
                                  >
                                  >PyPy is self-hosted and has been for some time (a year or so?).
                                  >
                                  >This is technically not correct. PyPy is hosted by RPython, which is
                                  >not Python but a different language all together.
                                  This is pure FUD! PyPy is written in RPython, which is a pure subset of Python,
                                  designed for writing interpreters in such a way that they can be translated into
                                  source code for a static language and then compiled to machine code.

                                  The translation toolchain, written in Python is used to create a binary image,
                                  which is a full interpreter for the Python language. This binary image can
                                  run the toolchain to generate another, identical binary image, which of course
                                  also is a a full interpreter for the Python language.

                                  This makes PyPy self hosting in every sense of the word.

                                  The fact that the interpreter is written in RPython and actually runs as an interpreted
                                  program under CPyton or a compiled PyPy is a useful implementation detail, adding
                                  yet another aspect of self hosting that is not present in other systems that claim
                                  to be self hosting.

                                  PyPy btw, is alive and well. Work is progressing along 3 major fronts. One is supporting
                                  real world applications, where we recently added support for ctypes and where we
                                  are working on ensuring that a number of popular modules and frameworks run under PyPy.
                                  Another major undertaking has been to improve execution speed without the JIT. We can
                                  report that we are faster than CPython on some benchmarks, while slower on others. On the
                                  average, I'd say that we still have some catching up to do. The third avenue that
                                  is being pursued is the JIT. While a huge refactoring has been finished and the
                                  results look very good, there are still many months of work to do before the
                                  JIT can be used in production.

                                  Jacob Hallén

                                  --

                                    Comment

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