Linux/Python Issues

[MartinRinehart@gmail.com]

I went to Python.org, DL'd Python 2.5 source code per the usual
inadequate instructions and ran the make files successfully (sort of).
Python 2.5 works fine. But "from Tkinter import *" gets a "What's
Tkinter?" message. IDLE's no where to be found.

What's not in the instructions is what directory should I be in when I
download? Where should I put the ".bz2" file? What dir for running the
make files? At present I'm working on a Windows machine, endangering
what's left of my sanity.

I'm using Linspire, so Debian directories are probably the ones that
will get me up and running. Barring specific knowledge, even some good
guesses would be appreciated.

[Paul Boddie]

Re: Linux/Python Issues

On 17 Feb, 20:38, MartinRineh...@ gmail.com wrote:

I went to Python.org, DL'd Python 2.5 source code per the usual
inadequate instructions and ran the make files successfully (sort of).
Python 2.5 works fine. But "from Tkinter import *" gets a "What's
Tkinter?" message. IDLE's no where to be found.

It could be that you don't have the Tcl/Tk libraries installed, or
perhaps the header files for Tcl/Tk aren't installed. If so, Python
wouldn't detect them when being configured itself, and then you
probably wouldn't have the Tkinter extension installed.

What's not in the instructions is what directory should I be in when I
download? Where should I put the ".bz2" file? What dir for running the
make files? At present I'm working on a Windows machine, endangering
what's left of my sanity.
>
I'm using Linspire, so Debian directories are probably the ones that
will get me up and running. Barring specific knowledge, even some good
guesses would be appreciated.

Here's one page which probably tells you stuff you already know:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Download

On Ubuntu, which is Debian-based, the python-tk package should make
Tkinter available, so you could look for that in your repositories. As
for building from source, you can put the .bz2 file anywhere, and
unpack it anywhere that isn't going to make a mess for you to clean up
later. For example, you could download the Python .bz2 file into a
"downloads" directory residing in your home directory, then you could
do this:

mkdir software
cd software
tar jxf ~/downloads/Python-2.5.1.tar.bz2
cd Python-2.5.1
../configure
make

You can then do a "make install" with the right privileges.

Paul

[Diez B. Roggisch]

Re: Linux/Python Issues

MartinRinehart@ gmail.com schrieb:

I went to Python.org, DL'd Python 2.5 source code per the usual
inadequate instructions and ran the make files successfully (sort of).
Python 2.5 works fine. But "from Tkinter import *" gets a "What's
Tkinter?" message. IDLE's no where to be found.
>
What's not in the instructions is what directory should I be in when I
download? Where should I put the ".bz2" file? What dir for running the
make files? At present I'm working on a Windows machine, endangering
what's left of my sanity.
>
I'm using Linspire, so Debian directories are probably the ones that
will get me up and running. Barring specific knowledge, even some good
guesses would be appreciated.

Nothing special, just reading the "configure --help" will help you. You
need Tcl/Tk + possible devel-packages so the header-files are found. I'm
not an expert on the required versions, but that should be told you
somewhere.

But I doubt that there isn't a python2.5 already available for your
distro - especially if it's debian based. Ubuntu for example has 2.5 as
default.

Diez

[MartinRinehart@gmail.com]

Re: Linux/Python Issues



Paul Boddie wrote:

Here's one page which probably tells you stuff you already know:
>
http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Download

Thank you! It says I need Python (which I've got) and the Python-devel
package, which sounds like it might include Tkinter and IDLE. Now if
only I knew where to get the Python-devel package ...

[Paul Boddie]

Re: Linux/Python Issues

On 18 Feb, 16:39, MartinRineh...@ gmail.com wrote:

Paul Boddie wrote:

Here's one page which probably tells you stuff you already know:

>

http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Download

>
Thank you! It says I need Python (which I've got) and the Python-devel
package, which sounds like it might include Tkinter and IDLE. Now if
only I knew where to get the Python-devel package ...

It would probably be the python-dev package if Linspire really is
based on Debian. However, that only gives you the Python headers, as
far as I remember. You would also need to get the packages for Tcl/Tk
including those providing the headers. And IDLE and Tkinter are
separate packages, too. But generally, just asking for the idle or
idle-python2.5 packages will give you the stack of packages you need
without any further thought required.

That said, if the problem is that Linspire doesn't provide Python 2.5
as a package, then you're back to installing the Tcl/Tk packages and
then building from source, configuring, building and installing Python
as mentioned earlier. You could instead attempt to port the generic
Debian package to Linspire, but this isn't for the timid. ;-)

If finding Tcl/Tk packages is also a problem, you could build Tcl/Tk
from scratch, too - something I've had to do in the distant past on
operating systems like Solaris. Then, it's a matter of telling
Python's configure program where you installed the Tcl/Tk headers and
libraries.

Paul

P.S. I'm not sure if I can advise you on the specifics around
Linspire. Ubuntu and Debian are quite transparent, and you can quite
easily find packages for them on packages.ubuntu .com and
packages.debian .org respectively. The whole CNR stuff and the
proprietary software slant of Linspire obscures the solution, in my
opinion.

[MartinRinehart@gmail.com]

Re: Linux/Python Issues



Paul Boddie wrote:

The whole CNR stuff and the
proprietary software slant of Linspire obscures the solution, in my
opinion.

Thanks for all your help, Paul.

CNR, which is now free, is absolutely marvelous when it's got what you
need. If Python2.5 were in the warehouse, I'd have clicked, gone to
make a cup of coffee and the appropriate icon would be on my desktop
when I came back. If I were Python.org I'd not consider anything ready
for release until it was in the warehouse.

[Sion Arrowsmith]

Re: Linux/Python Issues

<MartinRinehart @gmail.comwrote :

>CNR, which is now free, is absolutely marvelous when it's got what you
>need. If Python2.5 were in the warehouse, I'd have clicked, gone to
>make a cup of coffee and the appropriate icon would be on my desktop
>when I came back. If I were Python.org I'd not consider anything ready
>for release until it was in the warehouse.

Er, so how is it supposed to get into the warehouse if it's not
first released from python.org ?

--
\S -- siona@chiark.gr eenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
"Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
-- Arthur C. Clarke
her nu becomeþ se bera eadward ofdun hlæddre heafdes bæce bump bump bump

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: Linux/Python Issues

MartinRinehart@ gmail.com a écrit :

>
Paul Boddie wrote:

>The whole CNR stuff and the
>proprietary software slant of Linspire obscures the solution, in my
>opinion.

>
Thanks for all your help, Paul.
>
CNR, which is now free, is absolutely marvelous when it's got what you
need. If Python2.5 were in the warehouse, I'd have clicked, gone to
make a cup of coffee and the appropriate icon would be on my desktop
when I came back. If I were Python.org I'd not consider anything ready
for release until it was in the warehouse.

It's not the project's team duty to build specific packages for each and
every possible platform / distro / package manager. Debian, Unbuntu,
Mandriva, RedHat, Gentoo etc all build their own specific packages for
the projects they want to be part of their distro. Bad luck you choose a
distro that doesn't do a proper job here. May I suggest you give Ubuntu
a try ? You might find it very welcoming to outsiders !-)

[MartinRinehart@gmail.com]

Re: Linux/Python Issues

re being serious

I am serious. I am seriously trying to develop a nice language for
beginners. I was at Dartmouth in 1965 when BASIC was new. It let me
use the computer without learning Fortran. It was very successful. I
think it's past time for another one. I think we could have a lot more
capability with more simplicity than you find in Visual Basic.

re DLing source

As a "solution" to the problem of wanting a program on my computer, it
sucks. On Windows I'll DL an install package, "accept" a license
agreement, click Next a few times (no, I can't make a cup of coffee
because the minute I step away the "Wizard" will ask a question), ...
With CNR the commitment is that I CAN walk away. I do not know who
should be responsible for putting things in the warehouse. I do wish
that the *n*x community would create some sensible standards so the
'our distro doesn't put things where others do' would stop being an
issue. Looking in "/usr/bin" and its brethren makes "c:\Program Files"
seem organized.

re changing distros because apt-get could do the job

I'll take your words for the superiority of Ubuntu. But I'll not
change from one problem (can't find the python-devel that python.org
says I need) to another (installing a new OS). I bought my Linspire
computer with the OS installed. I've no interest in mastering the art
of installing Linux. I'm a big fan of KDE, KATE and Konqueror and
having a dozen desktops for a dozen projects. I do not miss crashes
and viruses. I do not miss shelling out hundreds of bucks for an
office suite.

So for now I'll just pretend that Windows is desktop 13. A KVM helps.
I'll remember that you don't type "uptime" in the DOS window. Oh,
yeah. I'll remember that my NAV subscription expired. Gotta renew.

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: Linux/Python Issues

MartinRinehart@ gmail.com a écrit :

re being serious
>
I am serious. I am seriously trying to develop a nice language for
beginners.

That's not what I was talking about.

re DLing source
>
As a "solution" to the problem of wanting a program on my computer, it
sucks. On Windows I'll DL an install package, "accept" a license
agreement, click Next a few times (no, I can't make a cup of coffee
because the minute I step away the "Wizard" will ask a question), ...
With CNR the commitment is that I CAN walk away. I do not know who
should be responsible for putting things in the warehouse.

Those who maintain the warehouse.

I do wish
that the *n*x community would create some sensible standards so the
'our distro doesn't put things where others do'

There are such standards - but not anyone is following them. What you
have to understand is that unix is not *one* OS, but a (quite large)
family of OSs.

would stop being an
issue. Looking in "/usr/bin" and its brethren makes "c:\Program Files"
seem organized.

Your opinion.

re changing distros because apt-get could do the job
>
I'll take your words for the superiority of Ubuntu. But I'll not
change from one problem (can't find the python-devel that python.org
says I need) to another (installing a new OS). I bought my Linspire
computer with the OS installed. I've no interest in mastering the art
of installing Linux.

Installing Ubuntu is quite straightforward . IMHO even simpler than
installing any "recent" (ie >= NT4) version of Windows.

I'm a big fan of KDE, KATE and Konqueror and
having a dozen desktops for a dozen projects. I do not miss crashes
and viruses. I do not miss shelling out hundreds of bucks for an
office suite.

Fine. But anyway, you have to face the fact that your OS doesn't provide
a proper package for recent Python versions, and that this is by no mean
the responsability of the Python team. So you're left with the following
options:

- complain to the company selling Linspire until they provide this package
- try to install Python from sources
- install another OS

[Bjoern Schliessmann]

Re: Linux/Python Issues

MartinRinehart@ gmail.com wrote:

As a "solution" to the problem of wanting a program on my
computer, it sucks. On Windows I'll DL an install package,
"accept" a license agreement, click Next a few times (no, I can't
make a cup of coffee because the minute I step away the "Wizard"
will ask a question), ... With CNR the commitment is that I CAN
walk away. I do not know who should be responsible for putting
things in the warehouse.

The... maintainer perhaps? A.k.a. the distributor?

I do wish that the *n*x community would create some sensible
standards so the 'our distro doesn't put things where others do'
would stop being an issue.

There are certainly mory than fifty GNU/Linux and Unix flavours of
different versions which are all POSIX compatible, but not binary
compatible. Of Windows, there are very few versions which are
mostly binary compatible, and widely used. Do you think the Python
maintainers should create fifty different Python packages every
release? The common software "flow" is: developer =distributor =>
user. But due to some cool tools compiling isn't something one
can't learn by doing, since the developers already did the most for
you; more or less you just have to get your environment right
(dependencies) and hit "start". I admit that's nothing for the "I
just want it to work!!!11" kind of people, but those should stick
to better supported flavours.

Looking in "/usr/bin" and its brethren makes "c:\Program Files"
seem organized.

I'm afraid not, since mixing executables, libraries and data in an
unsorted directory tree is just horrible. POSIX compatible systems
usually sort everything in directories where it belongs
(/usr/bin, /usr/lib, /usr/share/*, ...) and employ a packet manager
to keep the system in a well-defined state. Self-compiled stuff can
be "incorporat ed" or just installed to the /usr/local subhierarchy.

The Windows way, contrarily, is:

- All program files go anywhere on the hard disk in a custom
directory tree. (Recently, they are often installed to something
like "Program Files" or a translated equivalent, luckily.)

- Most programs use a custom installer which alone has the task to
track files installed to the system; the system itself usually has
no knowledge about it (apart from how to call the uninstaller).
Dependency handling is completely up to the applications
themselves.

- Often, libraries and/or drivers are installed somewhere
in %WINDIR% and get lost ... no wonder Windows systems are commonly
reinstalled quite often compared to POSIX compatible systems.

Additionally, exotic or older program in Windows are often bundled
in a (today) malfunctioning installer. Older programs for POSIX
compatible OS are often available in source which often need only
few adaptations to compile properly.

I've no interest in mastering the art of installing Linux.

I'd appreciate if you weren't complaining about things you didn't
know ...

Regards,


Björn

--
BOFH excuse #297:

Too many interrupts

[bruno.desthuilliers@gmail.com]

Re: Linux/Python Issues

On 21 fév, 13:57, Paul Boddie <p...@boddie.or g.ukwrote:

On 21 Feb, 13:04, MartinRineh...@ gmail.com wrote:
>

<OT digression="gen too advocacy">

re DLing source

>

As a "solution" to the problem of wanting a program on my computer, it
sucks.

>
It doesn't suck if you're just installing one program, but if there
are a lot of dependencies it can quickly suck, yes. Even with systems
that comprehensively manage dependencies like Gentoo's Portage (and
unlike language-specific solutions such as easy_install and the CPAN
tools) the convenience can become quickly overwhelmed by practical
concerns such as whether your computer has enough CPU time available
to compile all the updates coming in.
>

Hmm... I'm actually an happy gentoo user, and my computer is now
something like five years old. So yes, sure, I do not recompile
OpenOffice everyday, but with ccache installed, keeping the sytem up
to date is definitively not a problem.
</OT>