cloud computing (and python)?

**PatrickMinnesota** · Jan 1 '08, 10:05 PM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

On Jan 1, 3:26 pm, Aaron Watters <aaron.watt...@ gmail.comwrote:

So, in between skiing runs I noticed
a Business Week cover story on
"cloud computing". The article had
lots of interesting information in it like
about how somebody's mom used to
be an airline stewardess and the
interior decor of various office spaces.
It was a truly excellent piece of
journalism.
>
However it gave me no idea what
"cloud computing" is and how it
could be used to solve a computational
problem.
>
Could anyone on this list
which usually has highly informed
readers give me a clue at some
level of technical detail what cloud
computing is about and how it could
be used. Bonus points if you mention
Python in the response!
>
An actual example would be great,
if it's not web scraping and searching.
>
- Aaron Watters
>
==http://www.xfeedme.com/nucular/pydistro.py/go?FREETEXT=sno w

Examples of applications in the cloud: Google apps, Zoho.com

Examples of cloud storage and bandwidth: Amazon's S3 for scalable
storage, Amazon's EC2 for scalable serving

The idea is that your data and applications are on the net, rather
than your local hard drive.

**PatrickMinnesota** · Jan 1 '08, 10:05 PM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

On Jan 1, 3:26 pm, Aaron Watters <aaron.watt...@ gmail.comwrote:

So, in between skiing runs I noticed
a Business Week cover story on
"cloud computing". The article had
lots of interesting information in it like
about how somebody's mom used to
be an airline stewardess and the
interior decor of various office spaces.
It was a truly excellent piece of
journalism.
>
However it gave me no idea what
"cloud computing" is and how it
could be used to solve a computational
problem.
>
Could anyone on this list
which usually has highly informed
readers give me a clue at some
level of technical detail what cloud
computing is about and how it could
be used. Bonus points if you mention
Python in the response!
>
An actual example would be great,
if it's not web scraping and searching.
>
- Aaron Watters
>
==http://www.xfeedme.com/nucular/pydistro.py/go?FREETEXT=sno w

Oh, and I forgot to mention Python for points.

Python combined with a framework like Django is used with Amazon's
cloud services in various applications. www.Pownce.com is an example.

**Steven D'Aprano** · Jan 1 '08, 10:15 PM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 13:55:10 -0800, PatrickMinnesot a wrote:

The idea is that your data and applications are on the net, rather than
your local hard drive.

Or, to put it another way, your data and applications are controlled by
another company rather than you.

Not that I wish to be cynical or anything like that.

--
Steven

**Aaron Watters** · Jan 2 '08, 12:25 AM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

On Jan 1, 5:05 pm, Steven D'Aprano <st...@REMOVE-THIS-
cybersource.com .auwrote:

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 13:55:10 -0800, PatrickMinnesot a wrote:

The idea is that your data and applications are on the net, rather than
your local hard drive.

>
Or, to put it another way, your data and applications are controlled by
another company rather than you.
>
Not that I wish to be cynical or anything like that.
>
--
Steven

I see. So cloud computing is
java dickless^H^H^H^ H^H^Hskless
workstations warmed over but less
flexible? I'm having trouble
understanding why people would want
to buy in to this. For example at
the amazon site I see things like
"it might take a couple minutes
to load your image..." Are they
joking?

hmmm. -- Aaron Watters

===

http://www.xfeedme.com/nucular/pydistro.py/go?FREETEXT=try+not+to+allocate+too+many+objects+okay

**Cameron Laird** · Jan 2 '08, 01:15 AM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

In article <eb920cf5-0166-46dd-a931-25cd38f972c1@75 g2000hsv.google groups.com>,
Aaron Watters <aaron.watters@ gmail.comwrote:

>So, in between skiing runs I noticed
>a Business Week cover story on
>"cloud computing". The article had
>lots of interesting information in it like
>about how somebody's mom used to
>be an airline stewardess and the
>interior decor of various office spaces.
>It was a truly excellent piece of
>journalism.
>
>However it gave me no idea what
>"cloud computing" is and how it
>could be used to solve a computational
>problem.
>
>Could anyone on this list
>which usually has highly informed
>readers give me a clue at some
>level of technical detail what cloud
>computing is about and how it could
>be used. Bonus points if you mention
>Python in the response!
>
>An actual example would be great,
>if it's not web scraping and searching.

**Neil Hodgson** · Jan 2 '08, 01:25 AM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

Cloud computing is mostly about scalability. You do not need to be
concerned so much about low level infrastructure details such as
purchasing servers, configuring and maintaining them, hiring space in
data centres, linking up data centres, etc. It converts a lot of fixed
costs into lower recurring costs so makes it easier for a start up with
limited capital to start operating.

There are Python libraries for accessing some of the cloud computing
services and you can also host Python application code on some services
that allow code execution. This includes services that can run arbitrary
code on virtual machines such as EC2 and more restricted computational
services like Hadoop which can run Jython.

Neil

**PatrickMinnesota** · Jan 2 '08, 01:55 AM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

On Jan 1, 7:12 pm, Neil Hodgson <nyamatongwe+th un...@gmail.com wrote:

Cloud computing is mostly about scalability. You do not need to be
concerned so much about low level infrastructure details such as
purchasing servers, configuring and maintaining them, hiring space in
data centres, linking up data centres, etc. It converts a lot of fixed
costs into lower recurring costs so makes it easier for a start up with
limited capital to start operating.
>
There are Python libraries for accessing some of the cloud computing
services and you can also host Python application code on some services
that allow code execution. This includes services that can run arbitrary
code on virtual machines such as EC2 and more restricted computational
services like Hadoop which can run Jython.
>
Neil

I would say that cloud computing to an implementor or company
providing cloud
computing is all about scalability and stuff like S3 and EC3. There
are
other options for this BTW.

But to the end user, it's about having your data and applications on a
disk
served by a network and server that is somewhere out there on the net
and
accessible from anywhere that you have connectivity. You might travel
with
a laptop, but generally, when in Hong Kong, you'll be screwed if a
chunk of
data is sitting on a disk inside a desktop in your home office and
isn't on
your laptop. With the 'cloud' concept, it wouldn't matter where you
are,
as long as you have a connection to the internet, you can run the apps
and
access the data.

Issues: and yes, they are big, who has control over the data, is it
being
backed up and protected, and is your private data being mined without
your approval. Oh,
and what happens if you use Zoho's system and they go out of
business?

**Michael Sparks** · Jan 2 '08, 03:05 PM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

Aaron Watters wrote: (from a gmail account)

So cloud computing is java diskless workstations warmed over but less
flexible?
>
I'm having trouble understanding why people would want
to buy in to this.

Why do you like gmail - since you appear to use it? (I can think of several
possibilities) The reason I ask Gmail is a an example of computing in the
cloud. Specifically it's an application in the cloud.

You get several classes of things "in the cloud" - one possible break up:
* Applications - gmail, amazon, hotmail, facebook widgets, writely,
blogger, flickr, etc.
* Components - YUI, EC2, S3
* Frameworks - open social, facebook

etc. Each has benefits. Some examples:
* gmail, hotmail, yahoomail - spam filtering, access your mail anywhere.
You rent the application by paying with attention (or paying money - I
think hotmail still do that)
* S3 - scalable storage in the cloud WITH scalable serving. The trade off
here is "how much does it cost you to run a colo box or dedicated
server" vs "how much to rent the space". You rent capacity on demand.
(a bit like "why buy storage at a self-storage place rather than buy a
garage?" - there are good reasons both ways round :-)
* EC2 - Similar, but to do with computing capacity.
EC2 & S3 allow you to scale for example in line _and in time_ with the
size of your userbase - assuming your business model (if you have
one :-) matches
* open social, facebook - rather than build your own social graph, you
can attach yourself to an existing one to simplify take-up.

I must admit I feel a hint of amusement though at your comment above, when
it's sent from precisely the sort of setup you appear bemused by - since
you appear to have already bought into it without realising ! :-D

Have fun :-)

Michael.

**Aaron Watters** · Jan 2 '08, 03:35 PM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

I must admit I feel a hint of amusement though at your comment above, when
it's sent from precisely the sort of setup you appear bemused by - since
you appear to have already bought into it without realising ! :-D

Ok, so if we include yahoo mail and gmail in "cloud computing" then I
guess
usenet is also cloud computing. How about ftp? ssh? nfs? Oh I get
it. It's
another meaningless marketing buzz phrase.

I mean, really, I've been using web-mail and various varieties of
remote
storage for over a decade. What is *new* about the concept? (I see
some
hints above, but it's mixed in with a lot of other stuff...)

-- Aaron Watters

===

http://www.xfeedme.com/nucular/pydistro.py/go?FREETEXT=fud

**PatrickMinnesota** · Jan 2 '08, 07:15 PM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

On Jan 2, 9:33 am, Aaron Watters <aaron.watt...@ gmail.comwrote:

I must admit I feel a hint of amusement though at your comment above, when
it's sent from precisely the sort of setup you appear bemused by - since
you appear to have already bought into it without realising ! :-D

>
Ok, so if we include yahoo mail and gmail in "cloud computing" then I
guess
usenet is also cloud computing. How about ftp? ssh? nfs? Oh I get
it. It's
another meaningless marketing buzz phrase.
>
I mean, really, I've been using web-mail and various varieties of
remote
storage for over a decade. What is *new* about the concept? (I see
some
hints above, but it's mixed in with a lot of other stuff...)
>
-- Aaron Watters
>
===http://www.xfeedme.com/nucular/pydistro.py/go?FREETEXT=fud

Aaron -

I would say that the biggest difference between what people have been
doing
for decades and what is now being referred to as 'cloud computing' is
the applications.

The idea of the cloud is that the application, like a word processor
for instance, is
not running or installed on your computer. It's running on Google's
servers, or
Zoho's servers etc. Your data is also stored on their servers. So
yeah, it's kind of
like the old diskless X-Terminal setup and is totally contrary to how
companies like
Microsoft would like the world to work. The other main difference
seems to be that
'cloud computing' runs under a different revenue model than
traditional applications
like Microsoft Office. Google Apps, in it's most basic form is free
and so are most
of the others. They are monetizing in a different way than Microsoft
does when it
sells you Office for $500 or whatever.

**Terry Reedy** · Jan 2 '08, 08:05 PM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

"PatrickMinneso ta" <PatrickMinneso ta@gmail.comwro te in message
news:4715e05f-456b-4274-9718-b6c009af7698@1g 2000hsl.googleg roups.com...
| I would say that the biggest difference between what people have been
| doing
| for decades and what is now being referred to as 'cloud computing' is
| the applications.

Having welcomed the shift from timeshare to desktop computing, I see two
important differences:

1. 100% availability. The University mainframe had daily and weekly
scheduled downtime (early morning) and rather frequent unscheduled crashes
(midday). PCs were more reliable hardware and faster to reboot when the OS
crashed. And spares or borrowed machines not too hard to come by.

Web (cloud) services run on highly redundant PC servers farms. The main
point of failure (for me, at least) is the ISP.

| The idea of the cloud is that the application, like a word processor
| for instance, is
| not running or installed on your computer.

That was true decades ago, when there was no 'your computer'. So nothing
new here.

| Your data is also stored on their servers.

ditto.

So
| yeah, it's kind of
| like the old diskless X-Terminal setup and is totally contrary to how
| companies like
| Microsoft would like the world to work. The other main difference
| seems to be that
| 'cloud computing' runs under a different revenue model than
| traditional applications
| like Microsoft Office. Google Apps, in it's most basic form is free
| and so are most
| of the others. They are monetizing in a different way than Microsoft
| does when it
| sells you Office for $500 or whatever.

2. yes, cost. University mainframes cost $s/minute. I remember blowing
about $200 due to a misplaced comma or something in a statistical analysis
setup. So it was cost-effective (and rather liberating) to spend $10000 on
a desktop Unix system for both statistics and text work.

tjr

**Aahz** · Jan 3 '08, 04:35 AM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

In article <mailman.48.119 9303911.896.pyt hon-list@python.org >,
Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.e duwrote:

>
>2. yes, cost. University mainframes cost $s/minute. I remember
>blowing about $200 due to a misplaced comma or something in a
>statistical analysis setup. So it was cost-effective (and rather
>liberating) to spend $10000 on a desktop Unix system for both
>statistics and text work.

Same here, only it was not remembering that the filesystem disallowed
names starting with digits.
--
Aahz (aahz@pythoncra ft.com) <* http://www.pythoncraft.com/

Weinberg's Second Law: If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote
programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.

**Aahz** · Jan 3 '08, 04:45 AM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

In article <69337707-ff18-4b39-af0a-78cf0a14b667@1g 2000hsl.googleg roups.com>,
Aaron Watters <aaron.watters@ gmail.comwrote:

>
>Ok, so if we include yahoo mail and gmail in "cloud computing" then I
>guess usenet is also cloud computing.

Usenet actually is a good example of cloud computing, but only at the
article distribution level. Netnews clients are *not* examples of cloud
computing (except maybe Google Groups). The question is whether there
exists an API and infrastructure that supports distributed computing and
storage.
--
Aahz (aahz@pythoncra ft.com) <* http://www.pythoncraft.com/

Weinberg's Second Law: If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote
programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.

**Lie** · Jan 5 '08, 10:35 AM

Re: cloud computing (and python)?

I mean, really, I've been using web-mail and various varieties of

remote
storage for over a decade. What is *new* about the concept? (I see
some
hints above, but it's mixed in with a lot of other stuff...)

In essence, you're correct, this concept of cloud computing actually
have existed for some time, but there is a difference between the
"classic" cloud computing and "new" cloud computing. The classic cloud
computing is rather limited emails, bbs, newsgroup, etc while the new
cloud computing also refers to the newly available scope such as word
processing, image processing, and even video editing.

In essence they're the same, you store your files on their server, and
you used a webbased tools to access your file, but nowadays people
wouldn't consider the classic cloud computing a cloud computing
anymore, as they've become too "normal".

It's not a completely meaningless marketing buzz phrase, the concept
has existed for some time, but the word is new.

Another way to look at this is: "classic" cloud computing are cloud
computing that is done because it can't be done the other way (what
use is an email address if you could only receive emails if your
desktop is always on, what use is a newsgroup if people could only
post if they are physically in front of the computer hosting the
newsgroup). While the "new" cloud computing refers to applications
that previously exist as desktop applications, but now ported to
become web-based applications, meaning the application could be usable
without the "cloud", but some features like universal availability
could not be used.

cloud computing (and python)?

cloud computing (and python)?

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