Built-in functions and keyword arguments

[Armando Serrano Lombillo]

Why does Python give an error when I try to do this:

>>len(object=[1,2])

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<pyshell#4 0>", line 1, in <module>
len(object=[1,2])
TypeError: len() takes no keyword arguments

but not when I use a "normal" function:

>>def my_len(object):

return len(object)

>>my_len(object =[1,2])

2

[Duncan Booth]

Re: Built-in functions and keyword arguments

Armando Serrano Lombillo <arserlom@gmail .comwrote:

Why does Python give an error when I try to do this:
>

>>>len(object =[1,2])

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<pyshell#4 0>", line 1, in <module>
len(object=[1,2])
TypeError: len() takes no keyword arguments
>
but not when I use a "normal" function:
>

>>>def my_len(object):

return len(object)
>

>>>my_len(objec t=[1,2])

2
>

At the C level there are several options for how you define a function
callable from Python. The most general form is
METH_VARARGS|ME TH_KEYWORDS which accepts both a tuple of arguments and a
dictionary of keyword arguments. These then have to be parsed to find
the actual arguments.

Many of the builtin functions use only METH_VARARGS which means they
don't support keyword arguments. "len" is even simpler and uses an
option METH_O which means it gets a single object as an argument. This
keeps the code very simple and may also make a slight difference to
performance.

I don't know if the reason that most builtin functions don't accept
keywords is just historical (someone would have to go through a lot of
code and add keyword argument names) or if there really is any
measurable performance difference to not using the METH_KEYWORDS option.
Being able to write less C code may be the main factor.

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: Built-in functions and keyword arguments

Armando Serrano Lombillo a écrit :

Why does Python give an error when I try to do this:
>

>>>len(object =[1,2])

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<pyshell#4 0>", line 1, in <module>
len(object=[1,2])
TypeError: len() takes no keyword arguments
>
but not when I use a "normal" function:
>

>>>def my_len(object):

return len(object)
>

>>>my_len(objec t=[1,2])

2

In the second case, the name of the argument *is* 'object'. Which is not
the case for the builtin len (which, fwiw, has type
'builtin_functi on_or_method', not 'function', so inspect.getargs pec
couldn't tell me more).

<ot>
While we're at it, you should avoid using builtin's names for
identifiers - here, using 'object' as the arg name shadows the builtin
'object' class).
</ot>

[Steven D'Aprano]

Re: Built-in functions and keyword arguments

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:52:04 +0000, Armando Serrano Lombillo wrote:

Why does Python give an error when I try to do this:
>

>>>len(object =[1,2])

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<pyshell#4 0>", line 1, in <module>
len(object=[1,2])
TypeError: len() takes no keyword arguments
>
but not when I use a "normal" function:
>

>>>def my_len(object):

return len(object)
>

>>>my_len(objec t=[1,2])

2

Because len() takes no keyword arguments, just like it says, but my_len()
is written so it DOES take a keyword argument.

When you call a function foo(object=[1,2]) you are instructing Python to
bind the value [1,2] to the keyword argument "object". But if the
function doesn't have a keyword argument named "object" then it will fail
immediately. Since len() doesn't have ANY keyword arguments, naturally it
doesn't have one called "object".

You can see the same effect here:

>>def my_len2(*args):

.... return len(arg[0])
....

>>my_len2(objec t=[1,2])

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: my_len2() got an unexpected keyword argument 'object'


Apart from the error message being slightly different, many (most? all?)
of the built in functions are like my_len2().

You may be thinking that keyword arguments are the equivalent of this:

object=[1,2]
len(object)

That is not the case. They are not at all equivalent.



--
Steven.

[Duncan Booth]

Re: Built-in functions and keyword arguments

Bruno Desthuilliers <bruno.42.desth uilliers@wtf.we bsiteburo.oops. com>
wrote:

In the second case, the name of the argument *is* 'object'. Which is not
the case for the builtin len (which, fwiw, has type
'builtin_functi on_or_method', not 'function', so inspect.getargs pec
couldn't tell me more).
>
><ot>
While we're at it, you should avoid using builtin's names for
identifiers - here, using 'object' as the arg name shadows the builtin
'object' class).
></ot>

I think you are being a little bit unfair here: help(len) says:

len(...)
len(object) -integer

Return the number of items of a sequence or mapping.

which implies that the argument to len has the name 'object' (although in
fact it doesn't have a name). The OP was simply asking about the difference
in calling conventions, not proposing to write code using 'object' as the
argument name.

[Tim Chase]

Re: Built-in functions and keyword arguments

><ot>

>While we're at it, you should avoid using builtin's names for
>identifiers - here, using 'object' as the arg name shadows the builtin
>'object' class).
></ot>

>
I think you are being a little bit unfair here: help(len) says:
>
len(...)
len(object) -integer
>
Return the number of items of a sequence or mapping.
>
which implies that the argument to len has the name 'object' (although in
fact it doesn't have a name).

And to confound matters even further for the uninitiated,

http://docs.python.org/lib/built-in-funcs.html#l2h-45

says that it's "len(s)" instead (but "len(s=[])" doesn't work either)

-tkc

[Armando Serrano Lombillo]

Re: Built-in functions and keyword arguments

On Oct 29, 3:10 pm, Duncan Booth <duncan.bo...@i nvalid.invalidw rote:

Armando Serrano Lombillo <arser...@gmail .comwrote:
>
>
>

Why does Python give an error when I try to do this:

>

>>len(object=[1,2])

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<pyshell#4 0>", line 1, in <module>
len(object=[1,2])
TypeError: len() takes no keyword arguments

>

but not when I use a "normal" function:

>

>>def my_len(object):

return len(object)

>

>>my_len(object =[1,2])

2

>
At the C level there are several options for how you define a function
callable from Python. The most general form is
METH_VARARGS|ME TH_KEYWORDS which accepts both a tuple of arguments and a
dictionary of keyword arguments. These then have to be parsed to find
the actual arguments.
>
Many of the builtin functions use only METH_VARARGS which means they
don't support keyword arguments. "len" is even simpler and uses an
option METH_O which means it gets a single object as an argument. This
keeps the code very simple and may also make a slight difference to
performance.
>
I don't know if the reason that most builtin functions don't accept
keywords is just historical (someone would have to go through a lot of
code and add keyword argument names) or if there really is any
measurable performance difference to not using the METH_KEYWORDS option.
Being able to write less C code may be the main factor.

Ok. I was suspecting something like this. Performance issues aside, I
think it would be a good idea if built-in functions behaved exactly
the same as normal functions.

BTW, I came into this problem when trying to use functools.parti al:

import functools
getattrF = functools.parti al(getattr, default=False)

which I think should have worked if getattr behaved as normal
functions do.

In the end I did:

def getattrF(object , name):
return getattr(object, name, False)

Any better idea?

[Armando Serrano Lombillo]

Re: Built-in functions and keyword arguments

On Oct 29, 3:20 pm, Bruno Desthuilliers <bruno.
42.desthuilli.. .@wtf.websitebu ro.oops.comwrot e:

Armando Serrano Lombillo a écrit :
>

Why does Python give an error when I try to do this:

>

>>len(object=[1,2])

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<pyshell#4 0>", line 1, in <module>
len(object=[1,2])
TypeError: len() takes no keyword arguments

>

but not when I use a "normal" function:

>

>>def my_len(object):

return len(object)

>

>>my_len(object =[1,2])

2

>
In the second case, the name of the argument *is* 'object'. Which is not
the case for the builtin len (which, fwiw, has type
'builtin_functi on_or_method', not 'function', so inspect.getargs pec
couldn't tell me more).

so that's the point, built-in functions don't behave as normal
functions.

<ot>
While we're at it, you should avoid using builtin's names for
identifiers - here, using 'object' as the arg name shadows the builtin
'object' class).
</ot>

As Duncan points out, I was using the name object because it's what
you get when you type help(len) (or in the calltips, or in). Anyway, I
don't think there's any harm in overriding a builtin name in such a
small scope (the object=[1,2] won't shadow the built-in object outside
of the function).

[Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch]

Re: Built-in functions and keyword arguments

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:34:58 -0700, Armando Serrano Lombillo wrote:

On Oct 29, 3:10 pm, Duncan Booth <duncan.bo...@i nvalid.invalidw rote:

>>
>I don't know if the reason that most builtin functions don't accept
>keywords is just historical (someone would have to go through a lot of
>code and add keyword argument names) or if there really is any
>measurable performance difference to not using the METH_KEYWORDS option.
>Being able to write less C code may be the main factor.

>
Ok. I was suspecting something like this. Performance issues aside, I
think it would be a good idea if built-in functions behaved exactly
the same as normal functions.

As Steven D'Aprano showed they behave like normal functions. Even pure
Python functions can have arguments without names:

def spam(*args):
pass

Ciao,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch

[Hendrik van Rooyen]

Re: Built-in functions and keyword arguments

"Tim Chase" <python.list@ti m.thechases.com >

I think you are being a little bit unfair here: help(len) says:

len(...)
len(object) -integer

Return the number of items of a sequence or mapping.

which implies that the argument to len has the name 'object' (although in
fact it doesn't have a name).

>
And to confound matters even further for the uninitiated,
>

http://docs.python.org/lib/built-in-funcs.html#l2h-45

>
says that it's "len(s)" instead (but "len(s=[])" doesn't work either)

Looks like a gotcha to me - its the difference between a keyword
(master = 42) and an assignment (s='I am a string')

You just can't do that - how is the parser supposed to know that
the second one is an assignment and not a keyword?

len([]) should work, though.

- Hendrik

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: Built-in functions and keyword arguments

Armando Serrano Lombillo a écrit :

On Oct 29, 3:20 pm, Bruno Desthuilliers <bruno.
42.desthuilli.. .@wtf.websitebu ro.oops.comwrot e:

>Armando Serrano Lombillo a écrit :
>>

>>Why does Python give an error when I try to do this:
>>>>>len(object =[1,2])
>>Traceback (most recent call last):
>> File "<pyshell#4 0>", line 1, in <module>
>> len(object=[1,2])
>>TypeError: len() takes no keyword arguments
>>but not when I use a "normal" function:
>>>>>def my_len(object):
>> return len(object)
>>>>>my_len(obj ect=[1,2])
>>2

>In the second case, the name of the argument *is* 'object'. Which is not
>the case for the builtin len (which, fwiw, has type
>'builtin_funct ion_or_method', not 'function', so inspect.getargs pec
>couldn't tell me more).

>
so that's the point, built-in functions don't behave as normal
functions.

><ot>
>While we're at it, you should avoid using builtin's names for
>identifiers - here, using 'object' as the arg name shadows the builtin
>'object' class).
></ot>

>
As Duncan points out, I was using the name object because it's what
you get when you type help(len)

That what I thought. But anyway, you're not the only person reading this
newsgroup, and there are a couple gotchas that are worth pointing out
for those who don't know yet.

>(or in the calltips, or in). Anyway, I
don't think there's any harm in overriding a builtin name in such a
small scope

In this specific case, possibly - because there are few chances you need
to get at the builtin object type here. Still, it's better to avoid
shadowing builtin names IMHO - if only for readability.