(Modular-)Application Framework / Rich-Client-Platform in Python

[Wildemar Wildenburger]

Re: (Modular-)Application Framework / Rich-Client-Platform in Python

Peter Wang wrote:

Actually, just this week, we completed a major SVN reorganization and
from this point forward, all of the libraries in ETS will be released
as eggs. In fact, eggs have been available for a long time for python
2.4, and now we have them for python 2.5 as well.
>
>

I'm not sure, but you guys seem a bit Windows-centric. I have yet to
find out if the egg-approach actually works for Linux (and Mac, though I
don't use it) as well. I've seen some mentioning of binary dependencies,
which makes me frown a bit. We'll just see.

The "Eclipse in python" you're looking for is actually called
Envisage, and it is part of ETS: https://svn.enthought.com/enthought/wiki/Envisage
>
The "Dev Guide" has some tutorials etc.: https://svn.enthought.com/enthought/...visageDevGuide
>
>

Yeah, I've been reading through that for the past couple of hours, seems
pretty sweet and reasonably simple.
I can see your reorg, by the way: The example .py files are not where
they're advertised to be. Better be quick with that, even solid software
with buggy documentation is buggy software ... ;)

Chime in on the mailing list if you have any questions. It's pretty
active and many people on it have lots of experience with Envisage.
>

I'm almost sure I will :)

c.u.
/w

[Peter Wang]

Re: (Modular-)Application Framework / Rich-Client-Platform in Python

On May 18, 1:10 pm, Wildemar Wildenburger <wilde...@freak mail.de>
wrote:

I'm not sure, but you guys seem a bit Windows-centric. I have yet to
find out if the egg-approach actually works for Linux (and Mac, though I
don't use it) as well.

It does. We have several linux and mac-based developers here. (I'm
on a mac most of the time.) I am currently running most of the ETS
libraries from eggs. It's certainly true that the large, monolithic
Enthought Python Edition that was offered in the past was only
available for windows, but that's gone now and has been replaced with
the egg-based distribution.

I've seen some mentioning of binary dependencies,
which makes me frown a bit. We'll just see.

The Traits package has a small C extension that builds on all
platforms that I've seen. Most of the other binary dependencies are
for graphical things like the plotting library. If you just plan to
use Envisage, you won't need those.

Yeah, I've been reading through that for the past couple of hours, seems
pretty sweet and reasonably simple.
I can see your reorg, by the way: The example .py files are not where
they're advertised to be. Better be quick with that, even solid software
with buggy documentation is buggy software ... ;)

I'll file a ticket for that. :)


-Peter

[Stef Mientki]

Re: (Modular-)Application Framework / Rich-Client-Platform in Python

Wildemar Wildenburger wrote:

Stef Mientki wrote:

>I took a look at Eclipse page you mentioned but after reading the
>first page I still don't understand what you mean (and I never read
>beyond the first page ;-).
>>

Well, what can I say ...
;)
>
>

>With a plugin system, I can think of a complete operating system,
>or I can think of something like a DTP, or simply Word,
>or I can think of something like Signal WorkBench
>etc.
>>

Yes exactly. As I said: Nothing in particular. Just an environment that
loads and unloads little bits if functionality, whatever those may be.
I think what most people think of when they hear "plugin" is: An
Application that can be extended.
An RCP provides no more than the next step: No monolithic app, just
plugins (which can have plugins themselves (which can have plugins
themselves (which ...))). Write a text editor component and use it in
your music-sequencer that also monitors your internet-activity, if you
must.
>
>

>I think if you don't express what all of the tasks of that framework
>will be,
>it's not well possible to create one.
>>
>>

Oh, but it is! Eclipse is such a framework. Pitty is, it's written in
Java. ;)
>
>

>Do you want just launching of applications, or do they have to
>communicate,
>exchange data, launch each other, create together one document or more
>general control one process,
>and lots of more questions ;-)
>>

Who knows? Thats the beauty of it. Eclipse has been conceived as an
IDE/Text-Editor. But now it is just a platform for others to build
plugins for. Such as an IDE. There are plans to make an eclipse-based
general PIM (called Haystack, I think). The concept is very simple, but
for some reason, highly unusual at present. I'm pretty sure that this
will change sooner or later.

I took a look at some of the examples build with eclipse,
and I might be wrong, but it's just another IDE,
(like Delphi, Lazarus, Visual Basic, Kylix, Pida, Envisage, VisualWX, wxGlade, ...)
what am I missing ?

To have an IDE as good as Delphi in pure Python,
would be still be great ;-)

cheers,
Stef Mientki

[Jarek Zgoda]

Re: (Modular-)Application Framework / Rich-Client-Platform in Python

Stef Mientki napisa³(a):

I took a look at some of the examples build with eclipse,
and I might be wrong, but it's just another IDE,
(like Delphi, Lazarus, Visual Basic, Kylix, Pida, Envisage, VisualWX,
wxGlade, ...)
what am I missing ?

I think you miss the difference between Eclipse IDE and Eclipse
Platform. The IDE is and application built using RCP. As Azureus or
RSSOwl, which aren't IDE-type applications. One of the tutorials
mentioned int the RCP wiki takes user through creating an email client
application, which is not an IDE, definitely. Eclipse RCP allows
building applications as a set of pluggable features over common
runtime. While not a "mark-and-drop" solution yet, it's a great leap
forward in Java desktop applications.

There's more to Eclipse that just IDE. ;)

--
Jarek Zgoda

http://jpa.berlios.de/

[Ben Finney]

Re: (Modular-)Application Framework / Rich-Client-Platform in Python

Wildemar Wildenburger <wildemar@freak mail.dewrites:

I think what most people think of when they hear "plugin" is: An
Application that can be extended.
An RCP provides no more than the next step: No monolithic app, just
plugins (which can have plugins themselves (which can have plugins
themselves (which ...))). Write a text editor component and use it in
your music-sequencer that also monitors your internet-activity, if you
must.

That sounds like Python to me. Write an application as modules
(natural and easy in Python), ensure the module interface is clear,
and those modules can be used for their functionality elsewhere.

You gave an analogy to Emacs. Well, Emacs' plig-in nature comes from
two things: a core set of functionality primitives, exposed through a
Lisp API; and a Lisp machine. From that framework, anyone can write
Lisp plugin programs to make the Emacs framework behave in a
particular way.

You already have Python, and can embed it in your program. The only
missing piece seems to be the primitive operations at the core, which
surely depend on what exactly it is you have in mind for your program
and can't really be provided in a generic form by some other party.

This "framework" you're looking for, what would it actually *do*? If
you can't describe what features it would provide, I can't imagine
what it actually *does*.

--
\ "This sentence contradicts itself -- no actually it doesn't." |
`\ -- Douglas Hofstadter |
_o__) |
Ben Finney

[Stef Mientki]

Re: (Modular-)Application Framework / Rich-Client-Platform in Python

Jarek Zgoda wrote:

Stef Mientki napisa³(a):
>

>I took a look at some of the examples build with eclipse,
>and I might be wrong, but it's just another IDE,
>(like Delphi, Lazarus, Visual Basic, Kylix, Pida, Envisage, VisualWX,
>wxGlade, ...)
>what am I missing ?

>
I think you miss the difference between Eclipse IDE and Eclipse
Platform. The IDE is and application built using RCP. As Azureus or
RSSOwl, which aren't IDE-type applications. One of the tutorials
mentioned int the RCP wiki takes user through creating an email client
application, which is not an IDE, definitely. Eclipse RCP allows
building applications as a set of pluggable features over common
runtime. While not a "mark-and-drop" solution yet, it's a great leap
forward in Java desktop applications.
>
There's more to Eclipse that just IDE. ;)
>

Sorry, I don't get the difference between an IDE and RPC.
If I look at the demo of the "email client" you mentioned,
(and I don't understand a bit of Java),
I see a very complex story (at least for me).

Is there an easy possibility that I can see the "email client" you mentioned,
working on my computer,
so I can judge how I would create the same functionality in one of the other IDE's,
maybe then I get the picture.

thanks,
Stef Mientki

[Wildemar Wildenburger]

Re: (Modular-)Application Framework / Rich-Client-Platform in Python

Ben Finney wrote:

You already have Python, and can embed it in your program. The only
missing piece seems to be the primitive operations at the core, which
surely depend on what exactly it is you have in mind for your program
and can't really be provided in a generic form by some other party.
>
>

That's where you're wrong. Such a tool exists. I really can't explain
any better than I (and Jarek even better so) already did. The keyword is
Rich-Client-Platform. Wikipedia explains it, so does the already
presented Eclipse-wiki, as does the Enthought Tools Site (specifically
Envisage), which also holds the answer to my problem/question. It is
solved. If you don't understand what I want, go to <URL:
http://code.enthought. com/ets/and read what it does.

I really, really appreciate the effort you (all of you) make in helping
me and getting me on the right track, but I'm a bit confounded by how
you can be trying to convince me that the tools I'm currently reading
the docs for don't exist.

I don't mean to be bitching, really. I just don't get your point here.


:)
W

[Ben Finney]

Re: (Modular-)Application Framework / Rich-Client-Platform in Python

Wildemar Wildenburger <wildemar@freak mail.dewrites:

I really, really appreciate the effort you (all of you) make in
helping me and getting me on the right track, but I'm a bit
confounded by how you can be trying to convince me that the tools
I'm currently reading the docs for don't exist.

I think most of us never really understood what you were looking
for. Your descriptions were quite vague, and the websites you pointed
to seemed to assume a great deal of understanding about Eclipse. I
never got a handle on the features you wanted, so I presented my "as I
understand it, you already have what you want"-type conclusions to
prompt you for better descriptions of the problem.

I'm glad you were able to find a solution to whatever problem it is
you're trying to solve -- good luck with that :-)

--
\ "Too many Indians spoil the golden egg." -- Sir Joh |
`\ Bjelke-Petersen |
_o__) |
Ben Finney