Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

**Neil Cerutti** · Feb 16 '07, 09:35 PM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

On 2007-02-16, ifti_crazy@yaho o.com <ifti_crazy@yah oo.comwrote:

I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language
but i am unable to deciced.
>
i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
>
so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth
with complete OOPS Characteristics
>
will wait for the answer
>
hope to have a right direction from you Programmer

Heck, yeah! Python rules! It will be perfect for your next
language acquisition.

(Well, what else did you excect a denizen of a Python group to
tell you?)

--
Neil Cerutti
Baseball has the great advantage over cricket of being sooner ended. --George
Bernard Shaw

**Bruno Desthuilliers** · Feb 16 '07, 09:55 PM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

ifti_crazy@yaho o.com a écrit :

I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
am unable to deciced.
>
i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
through with GUI based programming language

"GUI based programming languages" ? What's that ?

like VB.net
>
so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
complete OOPS Characteristics

"complete OOPS Characteristics " ? What's that ?

Visual C++ is not a language, it's a (proprietary, non portable)
implementation of a language named C++.

Ruby and Python are both hi-level, object-oriented languages, and both
have bindings to the main GUI toolkits. These GUI toolkits usually have
language-independant GUI designers. For the programming part, you're
free to choose whatever editor you like. Both Python and Ruby are worth
learning. Since both have open-source implementations , you can easily
try them for yourself and choose the one you like best. Now I don't know
what's the situation for Ruby, but - since you seem to be mostly on the
MS side -, Python has a pretty good integration with Windows (COM
programming and scripting, Win32 API bindings etc), and is usually a
better choice than VB for this j=kind of tasks. Note also that there's
IronPython (Python for .NET).

HTH

**Stef Mientki** · Feb 16 '07, 09:55 PM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

ifti_crazy@yaho o.com wrote:

I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
am unable to deciced.
>
i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
>
so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
complete OOPS Characteristics

Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB,
(although others in this group will definitely have a different opinion),
the beautiful thing about Python is,
that you can easily embed /encapsulate it in VB,
giving you the best of both worlds.

cheers,
Stef Mientki

**Bjoern Schliessmann** · Feb 16 '07, 09:55 PM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

Stef Mientki wrote:

Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB,

What is the GUI of a language?

Regards,

Björn

--
BOFH excuse #334:

50% of the manual is in .pdf readme files

**Bruno Desthuilliers** · Feb 16 '07, 10:05 PM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

Stef Mientki a écrit :

ifti_crazy@yaho o.com wrote:
>

>I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
>am unable to deciced.
>>
>i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
>through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
>>
>so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
>complete OOPS Characteristics

>
Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB,

"the GUI of Python" ? What's that ? Python is a *programming language*,
not a GUI toolkit.

(although others in this group will definitely have a different opinion),
the beautiful thing about Python is,
that you can easily embed /encapsulate it in VB,
giving you the best of both worlds.

Why would one go thru the pain of "embedding" Python in VB (if that's
even possible) when Python can directly access the Win32 API and all COM
components and have bindings for GUI toolkits like wxWidgets ?

**bearophileHUGS@lycos.com** · Feb 16 '07, 11:35 PM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

Bruno Desthuilliers:

Iftikhar:

i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
through with GUI based programming language

>
"GUI based programming languages" ? What's that ?

Maybe a language like Gui4cli :-)

http://users.hol.gr/~dck/g4c/

Bye,
bearophile

**Stef Mientki** · Feb 17 '07, 12:45 AM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:

Stef Mientki a écrit :

>ifti_crazy@yaho o.com wrote:
>>

>>I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
>>am unable to deciced.
>>>
>>i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
>>through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
>>>
>>so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
>>complete OOPS Characteristics

>>
>Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB,

>
"the GUI of Python" ? What's that ? Python is a *programming language*,
not a GUI toolkit.

The final goal of programming language is (in most cases)
meant to create functional things,
that can assist people to perform their tasks.
The UI of that resulting thing should be optimal adapted to the final audience (and task).
My audience is most comfortable with a intuitive GUI.
In most of my applications,
I need about 50% of the time for the GUI and 50% for the other functional code.
These estimates are for Delphi (is about identical as VB, which I used previous).
For what I've seen until now from Python,
- designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python
- Python is not capable of doing everything I need
(almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot)
- designing my other functional code in Python,
will reduce the development time with an estimated factor of 2
So the combination of Delphi (or VB) and Python seems the optimal combination for heavily GUI's.
- one of the big problems with Python is the version differences (compatibility)

In one of the other threads, Dabo was meant as a GUI designer,
I tried it yesterday,
and although it looks very promising,
at the moment this is not a graphical design environment,
just a complex (compared to Delphi) design environment with graphical feedback.
Just my 2 cents ;-)

>

>(although others in this group will definitely have a different opinion),
>the beautiful thing about Python is,
>that you can easily embed /encapsulate it in VB,
>giving you the best of both worlds.

>
Why would one go thru the pain of "embedding" Python in VB (if that's
even possible) when Python can directly access the Win32 API and all COM
components and have bindings for GUI toolkits like wxWidgets ?

"Pain of embedding" ?
About 10 lines of code, which you find ready to use on the web ;-)
And the performance is fantastic !
(I even use it for realtime, as a complete replacement for MatLab and LabView)

Bruno, I think we've a different audience / target application,
and at the moment we'll never agree about GUI,
but I promise that'll try the different Python graphics in the future,
and you will be the first to hear if my current conclusions are wrong.

cheers,
Stef

**Peter Decker** · Feb 17 '07, 02:55 AM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

On 2/16/07, Stef Mientki <S.Mientki-nospam@mailbox. kun.nlwrote:

In one of the other threads, Dabo was meant as a GUI designer,
I tried it yesterday,
and although it looks very promising,
at the moment this is not a graphical design environment,
just a complex (compared to Delphi) design environment with graphical feedback.
Just my 2 cents ;-)

Dabo is indeed a work in progress. They are developing the various
tools now to get people started, but have plans for a full graphical
IDE in the manner of Delphi or Visual Studio.

You can complain that this free tool developed by volunteers in their
spare time isn't as polished as a commercial tool backed by large
corporations that can afford large paid staffs.

Or you could contribute.

--

# p.d.

**Stef Mientki** · Feb 17 '07, 08:25 AM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

Peter Decker wrote:

On 2/16/07, Stef Mientki <S.Mientki-nospam@mailbox. kun.nlwrote:
>

>In one of the other threads, Dabo was meant as a GUI designer,
>I tried it yesterday,
>and although it looks very promising,
>at the moment this is not a graphical design environment,
>just a complex (compared to Delphi) design environment with graphical
>feedback.
>Just my 2 cents ;-)

>
Dabo is indeed a work in progress. They are developing the various
tools now to get people started, but have plans for a full graphical
IDE in the manner of Delphi or Visual Studio.
>
You can complain that this free tool developed by volunteers in their
spare time isn't as polished as a commercial tool backed by large
corporations that can afford large paid staffs.

Sorry, but I didn't complain !!
I just wrote down my observations.
I didn't write my observations to dis-encourage people,
(if so, my sincere appologies)
but to show that their are other (and maybe better) ways.

>
Or you could contribute.
>

Believe me or not, I love free and open software,
and I do contribute to the open source community,
but let everyone do what he/she is good in.
Why do you think I want to replace the use of MatLab and LabView
(and a number of others) with Python ;-)

cheers,
Stef Mientki

**Diez B. Roggisch** · Feb 17 '07, 08:45 AM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

The final goal of programming language is (in most cases)

meant to create functional things,
that can assist people to perform their tasks.
The UI of that resulting thing should be optimal adapted to the final
audience (and task).
My audience is most comfortable with a intuitive GUI.
In most of my applications,
I need about 50% of the time for the GUI and 50% for the other
functional code.
These estimates are for Delphi (is about identical as VB, which I used
previous).
For what I've seen until now from Python,
- designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python

You mean delphi here I presume?

- Python is not capable of doing everything I need
(almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot)

I'm not sure what you are talking about here, and I have the deep
impression you yourself don't as well.

Matter of factly, there is no "the python GUI". There are quite a few
choices. The built-in tkinter, which - while limited in some senses - is
developed by Frederik Lundh, and while I personally haven't done too
much with it, his reputation as one of the most high profiled python
developers doesn't go along pretty well with your assertions above. So
-whatever you used as GUI-toolkit, you either used it wrong, or it
really wasn't good.

But then there are at least three major other toolkits available, wx,
gtk and Qt. The first two I've only dabbled a bit with and can't comment on.

But I've done extensive, cross-platform development with Qt. And can
assert that it is unmatched in productivity and feature richness,
especially when combined with python. And certainly beat VB, and most
probably even delphi (albeit I haven't done too much in that to really
put all my weight behind these words).

And so I'm under the strong impression that your - undoubtedly correct
from a personal point of view, and I don't think your meaning evil here
- observations are wrong and are based on a lack of experience in python
and it's available gui-options.

Diez

**goodwolf** · Feb 17 '07, 03:15 PM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

In your situation consider C# too.
If you like python then try IronPython for .NET.
I think that C++ is not ideal for you.

P.S.: VB6 is NOT a real OOP language.

**Don Taylor** · Feb 17 '07, 03:35 PM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

ifti_crazy@yaho o.com wrote:

I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
am unable to deciced.
>
i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
>

By 'GUI based programming language' I think that you mean an integrated
development environment that includes a visual designer that allows you
to layout your GUI and that generates a skeleton application for you to
complete.

If this is so then the nearest thing that I have found is Boa
Constructor, although you will need to know more about the underlying
windowing system (wxPython) than you would when using VB.net in Visual
Studio.

Another system worth a close look is Pythoncard.

Other folks have already mentioned Dabo, but this is probably too early
in its development for your needs.

As an alternative, you can make your own choice of editor/IDE and use a
stand-alone visual designer for your GUI. I like Pydev/Eclipse for an
IDE and wxGlade for the visual designer. Again, you will need to learn
something about wxPython if you want avoid lots of frustration - Robin
Dunn's book 'wxPython in Action' is good.

There are probably similar toolkits available for combinations of Python
and other windowing systems (Tkinter, Qt).

Don.

**Max Wilson** · Feb 17 '07, 04:55 PM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

On Feb 17, 1:35 am, "Diez B. Roggisch" <d...@nospam.we b.dewrote:

But I've done extensive, cross-platform development with Qt. And can
assert that it is unmatched in productivity and feature richness,
especially when combined with python. And certainly beat VB, and most
probably even delphi (albeit I haven't done too much in that to really
put all my weight behind these words). [snip]

Thanks for the pointer--my hobby right now is a GURPS-based wargame
and I'm still looking for a good front-end generator. pygsear seems
nice in a lot of ways, but it's possible Qt will require less
development on my part. (I need to have one window, but split into
separate panels in the style of old RPGs like Wizardry and Bard's
Tale.) I'll have a look.

-Maximilian

**Bruno Desthuilliers** · Feb 17 '07, 06:15 PM

Re: Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

Stef Mientki a écrit :

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
>

>Stef Mientki a écrit :
>>

>>ifti_crazy@yaho o.com wrote:
>>>
>>>I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
>>>am unable to deciced.
>>>>
>>>i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
>>>through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
>>>>
>>>so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
>>>complete OOPS Characteristics
>>>
>>>
>>Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB,

>>
>>
>"the GUI of Python" ? What's that ? Python is a *programming
>language*, not a GUI toolkit.

>
The final goal of programming language is (in most cases)
meant to create functional things,
that can assist people to perform their tasks.
The UI of that resulting thing should be optimal adapted to the final
audience (and task).
My audience is most comfortable with a intuitive GUI.
In most of my applications,
I need about 50% of the time for the GUI and 50% for the other
functional code.
These estimates are for Delphi (is about identical as VB, which I used
previous).

Stef, I come from the Mac world, at a time where Windows didn't even
exist. I learned programming on a Mac (by the System7 days), then, a few
years later, became a professional Windows programmer - using VB,
VisualC++, etc. My first steps with Python were about GUI apps on
Windows. I've switched to Linux and web programming since, but I do know
what Windows GUI programming with Python is.

For what I've seen until now from Python,
- designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python

Bullshit. You don't design the GUI with Python, but with one of the GUI
designers coming with your GUI toolkit (that's, mostly, wxGlade for
wxWidgets, Glade for GTK, and QTDesigner for QT). All these tools have
all the needed features.

- Python is not capable of doing everything I need
(almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot)

I've shipped some wxPython apps, and tehy were usually more stable than
the VB ones.

- designing my other functional code in Python,
will reduce the development time with an estimated factor of 2
So the combination of Delphi (or VB) and Python seems the optimal
combination for heavily GUI's.

My experience is that you *dont* need Delphi nor VB at all.

- one of the big problems with Python is the version differences
(compatibility)

By itself, Python is very carefully designed for backward compat -
you'll find that much of the code written by the 1.5.2 days still work
as is. True, there are some compat requirements wrt/ which version of
wxPython works with which versions of wxWidgets and Python, but nothing
unusual here.

Bruno, I think we've a different audience / target application,
and at the moment we'll never agree about GUI,

cf above. When I was writing Windows GUI apps, my target audience was
mostly people knowing how to use a professional app on Windows. Now I'm
doing web apps, and my target audience may include my own mother - which
is not specially computer savy (even MacOS is too complex for her...).

Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

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