Python does not play well with others

[Paul Rubin]

Re: Python does not play well with others

"Diez B. Roggisch" <deets@nospam.w eb.dewrites:

This is simply not true. J2SE doesn't include a web-framework. J2EE
does, but it's a separate multi-megabyte-download.

I thought J2SE comes with JSP. Maybe that's not a "framework" in the
fancy sense though.

PHP _is_ a web centered language, so to say it "includes" a

And _both_ of them don't contain DB connectivity modules! J2SE has
JDBC - which is just a bunch of interfaces. You need to download each
and every driver.

Hmm, I thought it came with drivers. Maybe those come with the db
instead?

[Paul Rubin]

Re: Python does not play well with others

skip@pobox.com writes:

I can't speak authoritatively for either PHP or J2SE, but I suspect the
latter at least has some signifiant monetary support (if not outright gobs
of human resources) from Sun. PHP seems to have a more limited application
domain (web apps) from which it has expanded a bit. Can I build a PHP site
out of the box with a PostgreSQL or Oracle backend?

I believe so, from having looked at the docs a while back, but I
haven't tried it.

Does J2SE have something comparable to Numpy or scipy?

I don't think so, but Python doesn't either.

While might do the occasional bit of Python hacking for free, I still need
to put food on the table. My employer doesn't care if MySQLdb (to use one
of your examples) is delivered with Python or not. They aren't likely to
want to support me to solve your problems.

The same could be said of Tkinter (a large and complex library module)
or IDLE (a full blown mid-sized application shipped with Python). The
answer is the same for both: if you don't need to use a given module,
then don't. Why would I expect your employer to solve my problems
anyway, even if they relate to some module that you actually use?

[Paul Rubin]

Re: Python does not play well with others

skip@pobox.com writes:

iceberg.) The Pylons, web.py, Karrigell, Webware and TurboGears people
might (rightly) feel slighted if you include Django but not their
frameworks.

Yeah well, the Wxpython, PyQt, PyGTK etc. people may feel slighted
that Tkinter got included and their stuff didn't, and the Eric,
Eclipse, Komodo etc. people may feel slighted that IDLE got included,
but that doesn't stop Tkinter and IDLE from being useful and worth
shipping in Python. We were talking about db connectivity modules
which are quite a bit simpler than tkinter. We were also talking
about an SSL wrapper, which *is* included with Python, but is broken
(doesn't examine certificates) so people use external modules instead,
which is just lame.

Where would you stop? At the boundaries of your particular application
interests?

Basic competitive analysis. People ask here all the time "I'm trying
to write application XYZ, should I use language L or should I use
Python" (L is usually Java or PHP but can be other things). There's
always immediately a flood of responses about why Python is better
than language L for application XYZ. If the Pythonistas are serious
about such a claim, competitive analysis says they should be willing
to look at what language L does to support application XYZ (example:
PHP includes database connectivity), make a checklist of L's features,
and see to it that Python achieves (at least) parity in those areas.

[Kirk Sluder]

Re: Python does not play well with others

In article <7xirek9pdt.fsf @ruckus.brouhah a.com>,
Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.i nvalidwrote:

I do think the core should have more stuff than it does, so that its
functionality can be on a par with competing language distros like
J2SE and PHP. Both of those distros include database connectvity
modules and web frameworks.

Can't speak for PHP, but J2SE requires the additional installation
of the Mysql Connector/J JDBC driver. Java also does not include a
web framework as far as I can tell, with many people bolting on
struts and Tomcat for this purpose.

Now granted, it may or may not be a good idea for python to copy the
java way of doing things by including the generic database API into
the core libraries rather than expect database module developers to
use the API. But that doesn't solve the core problem that you can't
get database connectivity just through the core language.

And for that matter, perl doesn't include the database drivers or a
web framework either.

php does, but I've always considered php to be a web framework with
an embedded programming language. Comparing python to php here
strikes me as comparing apples and oranges.

[Diez B. Roggisch]

Re: Python does not play well with others

Paul Rubin schrieb:

"Diez B. Roggisch" <deets@nospam.w eb.dewrites:

>This is simply not true. J2SE doesn't include a web-framework. J2EE
>does, but it's a separate multi-megabyte-download.

>
I thought J2SE comes with JSP. Maybe that's not a "framework" in the
fancy sense though.

JSP is also part of J2EE.

http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/

"""
Another key concern of the Java EE 5 specification has been the
alignment of its webtier technologies, namely JavaServer Pages (JSP),
JavaServer Faces (JSF), and JavaServer Pages Standard Tag Library (JSTL).
"""

>PHP _is_ a web centered language, so to say it "includes" a

>

>And _both_ of them don't contain DB connectivity modules! J2SE has
>JDBC - which is just a bunch of interfaces. You need to download each
>and every driver.

>
Hmm, I thought it came with drivers. Maybe those come with the db
instead?

Might be, for some. For others where the vendor doesn't care about Java,
they aren't.

And they certainly require special treatment like putting them in the
classpath, setting up the project directory and the like - no simple
import will work out of the box, as it would witch python standard lib
drivers.

diez

[Diez B. Roggisch]

Re: Python does not play well with others

Paul Rubin schrieb:

skip@pobox.com writes:

>I can't speak authoritatively for either PHP or J2SE, but I suspect the
>latter at least has some signifiant monetary support (if not outright gobs
>of human resources) from Sun. PHP seems to have a more limited application
>domain (web apps) from which it has expanded a bit. Can I build a PHP site
>out of the box with a PostgreSQL or Oracle backend?

>
I believe so, from having looked at the docs a while back, but I
haven't tried it.

The docs cover all the available drivers, as they are hard-coded in the
source. Yet you need to specify inclusion of them at compile-time, and
as I said: some distros don't ship with non-OS-drivers.

>Does J2SE have something comparable to Numpy or scipy?

>
I don't think so, but Python doesn't either.
>

>While might do the occasional bit of Python hacking for free, I still need
>to put food on the table. My employer doesn't care if MySQLdb (to use one
>of your examples) is delivered with Python or not. They aren't likely to
>want to support me to solve your problems.

>
The same could be said of Tkinter (a large and complex library module)
or IDLE (a full blown mid-sized application shipped with Python). The
answer is the same for both: if you don't need to use a given module,
then don't. Why would I expect your employer to solve my problems
anyway, even if they relate to some module that you actually use?

As far as I can tell, primary concerns for inclusion of modules are twofold:

- dependencies, which certainly are an issue for DB-modules! Or do you
want every python build to need the oracle OCI drivers installed? Plus
headers?

- maintainer commitment.

Diez

[Kirk Sluder]

Re: Python does not play well with others

In article <7xbqkb2pmt.fsf @ruckus.brouhah a.com>,
Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.i nvalidwrote:

skip@pobox.com writes:

Where would you stop? At the boundaries of your particular application
interests?

>
If the Pythonistas are serious
about such a claim, competitive analysis says they should be willing
to look at what language L does to support application XYZ (example:
PHP includes database connectivity), make a checklist of L's features,
and see to it that Python achieves (at least) parity in those areas.

Well, digging into this, php includes database connectivity if
compiled against the database client libraries. So it's not as if
you can just download php and have it work against the database you
want.

I also don't think that python as a general-purpose programming
language is in direct competition to web frameworks like PHP and
ColdFusion. Perhaps the right answer is to say that PHP is a better
solution for people wanting a web templating framework with embedded
scripting, while Python is a better solution for people who want a
general scripting/application language with broad support for
specific applications via add-on modules.

But then again, I'm one of those heterodox people who argue that one
should fit the tool to the problem. Common Lisp, bash, awk, sed and
R are other great languages for different domains.

[Paul Rubin]

Re: Python does not play well with others

"Diez B. Roggisch" <deets@nospam.w eb.dewrites:

And they certainly require special treatment like putting them in the
classpath, setting up the project directory and the like - no simple
import will work out of the box, as it would witch python standard lib
drivers.

Well, that's nowhere near as big a deal as having yet another set of
vendors or maintainer to deal with. Minimizing configuration is nice,
but getting your software from as few different sources as possible is
also a big win.

[Jorge Godoy]

Re: Python does not play well with others

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.i nvalidwrites:

"Diez B. Roggisch" <deets@nospam.w eb.dewrites:

>And they certainly require special treatment like putting them in the
>classpath, setting up the project directory and the like - no simple
>import will work out of the box, as it would witch python standard lib
>drivers.

>
Well, that's nowhere near as big a deal as having yet another set of
vendors or maintainer to deal with. Minimizing configuration is nice,
but getting your software from as few different sources as possible is
also a big win.

So we should get a better egg support. Then it would all be just a matter of
easy_install <something>. As it is that easy for thousands of modules on CPAN
for Perl.

--
Jorge Godoy <jgodoy@gmail.c om>

[skip@pobox.com]

Re: Python does not play well with others


Szabolcsserious ly, python is a programming language and not a flee
Szabolcsmarket (so don't compare it to java or php)

If it grew to be as bloated as Java it might well become a "flee"
market. ;-)

Skip

[skip@pobox.com]

Re: Python does not play well with others

PaulWhy would I expect your employer to solve my problems anyway, even
Paulif they relate to some module that you actually use?

Your reasoning seems to be that Python should contain the functional union
of everything at least in Java and PHP if not Perl, Ruby and Tcl as well.
Free software or not, each person who contributes to the development of the
Python core has to put food on the table. As an example, I suspect most
core Java development is funded directly by Sun who pays its employees to
develop libraries, JIT compilers and the like. While my employer pays me to
program in Python I'm not paid to develop core Python code. What little I
do is done on my own time.

If you want to turn the Python distribution into a kitchen sink, make the
argument on python-dev and be prepared to shoulder your share of the burden
should your arguments sway the group as a whole.

Skip

[skip@pobox.com]

Re: Python does not play well with others


PaulYeah well, the Wxpython, PyQt, PyGTK etc. people may feel slighted
Paulthat Tkinter got included and their stuff didn't, and the Eric,
PaulEclipse, Komodo etc. people may feel slighted that IDLE got
Paulincluded, but that doesn't stop Tkinter and IDLE from being useful
Pauland worth shipping in Python.

They were both pretty much the only games in town when they were included
with Python. If they were developed in today's environment I doubt they
would be included.

PaulBasic competitive analysis. People ask here all the time "I'm
Paultrying to write application XYZ, should I use language L or should
PaulI use Python" (L is usually Java or PHP but can be other things).

So every time some lame ass PHP refugee gripes about something they think
Python is missing which PHP includes we should scan the horizon for all the
candidates and toss them in the next release?

Skip

[skip@pobox.com]

Re: Python does not play well with others


JorgeSo we should get a better egg support. Then it would all be just
Jorgea matter of easy_install <something>.

I'm all in favor of that...

Skip

[Neil Hodgson]

Re: Python does not play well with others

Paul Rubin:

I thought J2SE comes with JSP. Maybe that's not a "framework" in the
fancy sense though.

J2SE does not include JSP.

Neil

[Paul Boddie]

Re: Python does not play well with others

Chris Mellon wrote:

On 02 Feb 2007 11:10:04 -0800, Paul Rubin
<"http://phr.cx"@nospam. invalidwrote:

"Paul Boddie" <paul@boddie.or g.ukwrites:

If the hosting provider doesn't want to install MySQLdb then it may
not be a technical issue - perhaps they just can't be bothered to
install it, possibly because there's no demand or benefit to the
bottom line in doing so.

Why should the hosting provider need to devote attention to something
like that?

I agree with the remark about paying them for the service. The only
reason why a provider would have Python available, an allocation of
MySQL database instances per user, but not MySQLdb installed, would be
that they want to stick with a conservative set of packages which
requires zero admin (and thus zero outlay on administration) , and that
they don't understand obvious requirements for using MySQL with
Python. I don't think they'd get my business.

[...]

There are a number of languages which are primarily used for "web
development". PHP is the *only* one that ships with MySQL client
access.
>
Ruby doesn't (only primarily web development because of rails)
ASP, either .NET or classic, doesn't.
Java (in any form I'm aware of) doesn't.

You need to get the MySQL Connector/J driver, or whatever it's called
this month.

Cold Fusion doesn't.
Perl doesn't.
>
Who wants to host at a company that can't install packages anyway?

Quite. I imagine that most GNU/Linux distributions (and various BSDs)
provide at least some version of MySQLdb as a package. If a company
can't manage to provide Python plus MySQL, and then let their users
combine the two by installing a stock package (a single command or
some mouse clicks in the package manager), without offering up
"concerns" about how "secure" such a package might be (which I imagine
some providers might do if they want to discourage people from using
it), then I'd be a bit more concerned about how well they're keeping
up with security updates and how good they are at performing other
elementary administration tasks.

Paul