python GUIs comparison (want)

[David Boddie]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

On Friday 27 October 2006 16:36, Magnus Lycka wrote:

David Boddie wrote:

>You're forgetting that Qt isn't just a widget toolkit.

>
I suspect that the non-GUI parts are (just like in Wx) C++ stuff
which is more or less equivalent with things that are either Python
builtins or parts of Python's standard library. Besides, getting
those proprietary dependencies even further down into the code than
the GUI is not a plus in my book.

It depends on who you are. If you're writing GPL applications, whether
you use framework-specific classes for SQL, XML or networking (for
example) is more a question of making appropriate design choices.
If you're writing proprietary closed source applications, you're
probably paying for the benefits those dependencies bring.

One of the advantage of using Qt from Python is that you get a choice
of dependencies.

Last time I looked, Qt code wasn't even pure C++ but needed some
preprocessing like embedded SQL. Yet another programming language
in other words. I suppose I can ignore that from Python, but it
still smells...

You're referring to the meta-object compiler, I suppose. This has
been discussed many times by people who don't have the luxury of
being able to write all their code in Python; for example:

http://doc.trolltech.com/4.2/templates.html

http://www.scottcollins.net/articles/a-deeper-look-at-signals-and-slots.html

It's a trade off that some people choose to make to take advantage
of those features. Of course, Python has a perfectly good type
system, so you never need to preprocess Python code when you use PyQt.

David

[Jarek Zgoda]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

Christophe napisa³(a):

>PyGtk:
>Pro: Sophisticated GUI's, cross-platform (Linux and Win32); very popular
>on some platforms; active development community
>Con: Not native on OS X

>
You forgot that it is rather buggy on Win32 ( in my experience )

Didn't observe any W32-specific bugy behaviour during over 2 years of
development of JPA using PyGTK.

--
Jarek Zgoda

http://jpa.berlios.de/

[Mudcat]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

I have been using Tkinter for several years now. Recently I have been
thinking about switching to something else that may have a sharper
appearance. However I'm not sure what that may be, and if that
something else is *that* much better than what I'm already using.

Does everyone agree that wxPython looks best on Windows? I've also read
in a couple of places where Dabo looks pretty good as well.

So if someone were to pick a UI that gave the best appearance, what
would they choose?



Kevin Walzer wrote:

jiang.haiyun@gm ail.com wrote:

Now i began to learn GUI programming. There are so many
choices of GUI in the python world, wxPython, pyGTK, PyQT,
Tkinter, .etc, it's difficult for a novice to decide, however.
Can you draw a comparison among them on easy coding, pythonish design,
beautiful and generous looking, powerful development toolkit, and
sufficient documentation, .etc.
It's helpful for a GUI beginner.
Thank you.


:)Sorry for my poor english.

>
Tkinter:
Pro: Default GUI library for Python; stable; well-supported
Con: Needs extension for complex/rich GUI's; core widgets are dated in
look and feel; many modern extensions in Tcl/Tk have not made it into
Tkinter or are not widely used (Tile, Tablelist)
>
wxPython:
Pro: Popular, actively developed, wraps native widgets, looks great on
Windows, commercial-friendly license
Con: Based on C++ toolkit; docs assume knowledge of C++; some think
coding style is too much like C++; complex to build and deploy on Linux
(wraps Gtk)
>
PyQt:
Pro: Powerful, cross-platform, sophisticated GUI's
Con: Based on C++ toolkit; docs assume knowledge of C++; commercial
deployment is expensive; free deployment must be GPL; smaller
development and user community than wxPython
>
PyGtk:
Pro: Sophisticated GUI's, cross-platform (Linux and Win32); very popular
on some platforms; active development community
Con: Not native on OS X
>
>
>
>
>
--
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com

[Peter Decker]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

On 4 Nov 2006 08:23:40 -0800, Mudcat <mnations@gmail .comwrote:

I have been using Tkinter for several years now. Recently I have been
thinking about switching to something else that may have a sharper
appearance. However I'm not sure what that may be, and if that
something else is *that* much better than what I'm already using.
>
Does everyone agree that wxPython looks best on Windows? I've also read
in a couple of places where Dabo looks pretty good as well.

Dabo uses wxPython, so it looks exactly the same. The difference is in
the coding: writing stuff in wxPython is like writing C++ code, while
creating GUIs in Dabo is like writing Python code. Dabo also has a lot
of tools for creating GUIs visually, but even if you don't use those,
Dabo is a huge improvement over raw wxPython.

--

# p.d.

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

Mudcat wrote:

I have been using Tkinter for several years now. Recently I have been
thinking about switching to something else that may have a sharper
appearance. However I'm not sure what that may be, and if that
something else is *that* much better than what I'm already using.

Tk 8.5 isn't that far away, though.

http://www.markroseman.com/tcl/guide85.html

</F>

[timmy]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

Mudcat wrote:

I have been using Tkinter for several years now. Recently I have been
thinking about switching to something else that may have a sharper
appearance. However I'm not sure what that may be, and if that
something else is *that* much better than what I'm already using.
>
Does everyone agree that wxPython looks best on Windows? I've also read
in a couple of places where Dabo looks pretty good as well.
>
So if someone were to pick a UI that gave the best appearance, what
would they choose?
>
>

i've been using wxpython for a few years and it's great.
it's got far better widgets then tkinter and it's speed is greater on
large stuff as well.
it's got a great support forum and the maintainer robin dunn does a
great job of answering all questions.
i can't particularly fault wxpython. it looks great on all platforms and
maintain the native look and feel of the platofrm as well.

[Mudcat]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

When you say far better widgets, do you mean that it has a greater
number of widgets to choose from, or that the types of widgets are
basically the same but have a greater amount of flexibility in them?

Personally I find programming in Tkinter fairly simple and
straight-forward. I'm sure a lot of that is due to the fact I've been
using it for a while and have many templates already available when I
start to work on something new. But I don't find myself questioning it
very much for unnecessary typing like I do other things.

As far as appearance goes, I've scoured the net looking for examples of
widgets produced wxPython or other UIs, and I really don't see that
much difference than Tkinter. Now I haven't done a whole lot of
programming on XP, but as far as W2000 is concerned they all look very
similar.

What would be really cool is if someone were to come up with a UI that
has a totally new look and feel than anything that currently exists on
Windows. It seems like most of the native look and feel, even in XP,
are rather boxy and stale. I don't like Macs, but they do have cool
looking windows and frames.

Now I hardly know anything at all about low-level windows calls and
what is/is not possible. But I know that many applications draw their
own windows, skins, and functionality widgets to provide a sharper
appearance. It seems like it would be possible for someone to draw
these widgets and provide an api to display them through Python.


timmy wrote:

Mudcat wrote:

I have been using Tkinter for several years now. Recently I have been
thinking about switching to something else that may have a sharper
appearance. However I'm not sure what that may be, and if that
something else is *that* much better than what I'm already using.

Does everyone agree that wxPython looks best on Windows? I've also read
in a couple of places where Dabo looks pretty good as well.

So if someone were to pick a UI that gave the best appearance, what
would they choose?

i've been using wxpython for a few years and it's great.
it's got far better widgets then tkinter and it's speed is greater on
large stuff as well.
it's got a great support forum and the maintainer robin dunn does a
great job of answering all questions.
i can't particularly fault wxpython. it looks great on all platforms and
maintain the native look and feel of the platofrm as well.

[Paul Rubin]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

"Mudcat" <mnations@gmail .comwrites:

When you say far better widgets, do you mean that it has a greater
number of widgets to choose from, or that the types of widgets are
basically the same but have a greater amount of flexibility in them?

There's a lot more and they look a lot better. Tk widgets are quite
stylized and independently of that they look like crap.

Personally I find programming in Tkinter fairly simple and
straight-forward.

Tkinter programming is not too bad once you get used to it, if you
don't mind the limited widget set and weird restrictions, that is
true. Plus, it's included in the Python distro, which is the main
reason I keep using it. That's worked ok for me because the apps I've
written with it just needed basic GUI functionality and were not too
demanding of stylistic fine points. But Tkinter seriously dated by
now, and I don't think its widgets are anywhere near slick enough for
wide-distribution desktop apps that have to look polished.

What would be really cool is if someone were to come up with a UI
that has a totally new look and feel than anything that currently
exists on Windows.

No that would suck. Best to try to stay as close as possible to the
native widgets on whatever the underlying platform is. If you want
to depart from the native UI, then start from scratch and write a whole
new window system with a complete app suite etc.

[timmy]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

Mudcat wrote:

When you say far better widgets, do you mean that it has a greater
number of widgets to choose from, or that the types of widgets are
basically the same but have a greater amount of flexibility in them?

by better i mean more of them to choose from and the functionality they
provide.


when i started working with wx i discovered widgets i hadn't even seen
before. and if you can't find a widget to suit, it's easy to make one.

[Mudcat]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)


Paul Rubin wrote:

>
No that would suck. Best to try to stay as close as possible to the
native widgets on whatever the underlying platform is. If you want
to depart from the native UI, then start from scratch and write a whole
new window system with a complete app suite etc.

Ok. But other than thinking it would suck, you're basically repeating
my point about starting from scratch with a whole new suite of widgets.


I think there are situations where having an app that looks completely
different is a big bonus. Having developed apps for both engineers and
non-technical people alike, sometimes the non-techs are much more
impressed by the look/feel than what it actually does.

Sometimes you want a tool that blends in. Sometimes you want one that
stands out, especially when you're competing against other tools where
they all kind of look the same.

[Paul Rubin]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

"Mudcat" <mnations@gmail .comwrites:

No that would suck. Best to try to stay as close as possible to the
native widgets on whatever the underlying platform is. If you want
to depart from the native UI, then start from scratch and write a whole
new window system with a complete app suite etc.

>
Ok. But other than thinking it would suck, you're basically repeating
my point about starting from scratch with a whole new suite of widgets.

No. In both cases I'm saying stick with a consistent set of widgets
and visual look across all applications. Either use your OS's
existing widget set and make your apps look like the existing apps for
that OS, or else throw out all those apps and write a whole new set
whose look is new, but is consistent across all of them.

Sometimes you want a tool that blends in. Sometimes you want one that
stands out, especially when you're competing against other tools where
they all kind of look the same.

This is what I'm saying would suck. Maybe the standing-out would get
more attention but it's a nuisance for users.

[Mudcat]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)


Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

IOWs, eyecandy with no functionality.. . Sounds like the same mindset
that creates entire web sites using Flash animations such that one /can
not/ access them using a simple fast-loading text modes.
>

Not exactly. Look...when you're using freeware to compete with OTS
applications then you have to keep up with appearances. One of the apps
I wrote was used by our Sales team to show to customers. These same
customers are used to seeing flashy apps being shown to them all the
time, and we are basically competing against other companies using
these programs.

Anyone who has written apps like this understand what a difference that
first appearances make. You can take the exact same program, give it a
flashier wrapper, and customers will automatically think it offers that
much more. Customers usually only test drive these things long enough
to get a feel for it, not long enough to understand what all it will
do.

Therefore you can get a competitive edge using something that sets it
apart appearance-wise. It has nothing to do with being hollow inside.

[Eric Brunel]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:04:57 +0200, Christophe <chris.cavalari a@free.fr>
wrote:

>>And no modern layout manager available. Only those old school
>>left/right/up/down pack and anchors are available.

> huh? when did you last look at Tk? 1994?

Yesterday. In fact, I could find no mention at all of layout managers
others than those working with anchors. Anchors are soooo old school
nowadays :)

Being "old school" or "modern" is not an argument in itself. How do the
so-called "modern" layout managers help you do the thing you want to do?

And the fact that you could find no mention of something does not mean
that it doesn't exist. It may just be a documentation problem.

Honestly, I can't stand using anchors or the Packer anymore. The systems
used in wx, Qt are much better. Use them once and you cannot live
without them anymore.

The "Packer" is very rarely used in Tkinter applications when the layout
becomes complicated. Almost all applications I saw use the "grid" layout
manager, except for very simple things (like buttons in a row or column,
where the "pack" layout manager is just enough).
--
python -c "print ''.join([chr(154 - ord(c)) for c in
'U(17zX(%,5.zmz 5(17l8(%,5.Z*(9 3-965$l7+-'])"

[metaperl]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)


rdsteph@mac.com wrote:

Paul Boddie wrote:
>
"""The figures behind the scenes are quite enlightening for that
particular page. If you (or community experiences) don't agree with the
>
rankings (wxPython apparently even easier to learn than PythonCard and
Tinder, a bunch of Gtk-based toolkits having more or less "full" Linux
scores) then you'll have some surprises, I'm sure. Nevertheless, it's
an interesting concept. """
>
Well, I don't know what I was thinking, exactly, when I rated
PythonCard's ease of use...so I went back and changed it to rate it a
lot higher. The ratings in this script were done a long time ago now

I dropped Pythoncard when I could not sort multi column lists and when
I posted to the email list and no one answered me.

But prior to that it was great.

[John Henry]

Re: python GUIs comparison (want)

Yes, from a easy of use standpoint, I agree that PythonCard is very
high on the list.

Unfortunately there isn't more "activities " as one would like to see.

On the other hand, that's typical of open-source projects. We can
always roll up our sleeves and do it ourselves.

At least the multicolumn control isn't particularly complex, should be
able to figure out from the source code how to sort. I believe I did
that some time ago. I believe I ended up reshuffling the list...

metaperl wrote:

rdsteph@mac.com wrote:

Paul Boddie wrote:

"""The figures behind the scenes are quite enlightening for that
particular page. If you (or community experiences) don't agree with the

rankings (wxPython apparently even easier to learn than PythonCard and
Tinder, a bunch of Gtk-based toolkits having more or less "full" Linux
scores) then you'll have some surprises, I'm sure. Nevertheless, it's
an interesting concept. """

Well, I don't know what I was thinking, exactly, when I rated
PythonCard's ease of use...so I went back and changed it to rate it a
lot higher. The ratings in this script were done a long time ago now

>
I dropped Pythoncard when I could not sort multi column lists and when
I posted to the email list and no one answered me.
>
But prior to that it was great.