windev vs python SOS

[stéphane bard]

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.

- python and windev are fast to develop

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

any idea for a strong argument ?

[John Henry]

Re: windev vs python SOS

I don't know what windev is but presonally, I found Python to be
incredibly productive.

BTW: I recommend that you look into PythonCard. It sits on top of
wxpython and I found it to be a very productive GUI tool.

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue
>
- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.
>
- python and windev are fast to develop
>
- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython
>
- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

any idea for a strong argument ?

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: windev vs python SOS

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.

Find another job.

(I'm serious. I've 2+ years of pain with Windev, and if your boss is
clueless enough to believe all the marketing crap from PCSoft's droids,
you really don't want to work for him).

I have to argue
>
- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.

Python is far better at this than Windev - and the "prototype" is
usually quite usable.

So multi platform is not enough.
>
- python and windev are fast to develop

Nope. Windev lets you quickly have a barely usable DB-GUI pipeline, and
then trouble begins. Python, OTHO, really lets you do the job.

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

Aren't you confusing IDE with RAD ?

>
- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

Python is free. And being a boss doesn't necessarily imply being stupid.

any idea for a strong argument ?

My own argument would be "it's Python or it's without me" <g>

More seriously: since you're in a Window-only shop, portability may not
be a strong argument. But Python is also very good at Windows-specific
stuff (COM etc) - and is widely used by Windows programmers (at least in
France). FWIW, you may want to post this on fclpy too - there are some
"hard-core" Windows developpers there...


You can also point your boss to IronPython - if MS puts some money on
it, it can't be a bad tool, isn't it ?-)

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb@xiludom. gro'.split('@')])"

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: windev vs python SOS

John Henry wrote:

I don't know what windev is

A french (highly proprietary) so-called "CASE-Tool" with a so-called
"5th generation language" (lol) that is mostly a dumbed-down mix of
basic and pascal. It's so bad that it makes you regret VB6.


--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb@xiludom. gro'.split('@')])"

[Steve Holden]

Re: windev vs python SOS

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue
>
- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.
>
- python and windev are fast to develop
>
- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython
>
- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)
>
any idea for a strong argument ?
>

You might argue that Python allows much better integration with other
Windows functionality: see Robinson & Hammond's "Python Programming on
Win32", and mention IronPython.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com
Skype: holdenweb http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden

[Sebastian Kaliszewski]

Re: windev vs python SOS

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue
>
- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.
>
- python and windev are fast to develop
>
- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython
>
- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)
>
any idea for a strong argument ?

Python is widely known and tested, windev is not. Stuff not widely used (and
thus not well verified by Real World(tm)) is a Big Business Risk(tm). Things
looking pretty on marketing presentations might show its ugly head in Real
Life(tm) where Real Money(tm) is at stake (and in fact they do in vast
majority of cases).

Python is widely known and has Good Track Record(tm). Windev has not.

Python is known to integrate well into Windows. Is your boss really sure
that windev is good there? How about various corner cases?

Does your boss know about .net? Tell him about IronPython (If Microsoft
thinks its good, why your boss should not?). If your boss thinks .net is
crap and Java rules, tell him about Jython.

It's relatively easy to find (hire) Python programmers. It's not true in
case of windev programmers. If your boss needs more people or some people
leave (and thus must be replaced), it's a Real Cost(tm) to train new people
new windev tricks. Is your boss willing to take the risk that new people
will need 1-2 months to get fluent with windev (as he may well forget about
hiring trained windev developer in a reasonable amount of time, while hiring
trained python developer is possible).


rgds
--
Sebastian Kaliszewski

[MC]

Re: windev vs python SOS

Bonjour !

Comme tu es français, tu me coprendras.

Alors :
- windev est fermé, et protégé par des dongles. Résultat : dongle
perdu, en panne, ou volé, il faut racheter une licence (c'est arrivé à
un ami)
- le langage de windev est beaucoup moins évolué que Python. Et,
quand je dis beaucoup, c'est faible... Python a des possibilités
énormes en programmation procédurale, en Orienté Objet, et, même, en
programmation fonctionnelle.
- la structure interne de Python est extraordinaire. Vraiment.
- Python est très facile à apprendre. Il existe beaucoup de
ressources, même en français, sur Internet, dans des livres, etc.
- Python est un langage stable, avec très très peu de bugs/problèmes.
Sur ce point, windev marque sérieusement le pas. Sur certains forums
consacrés à windev, le nombre de bugs signalés était effarant.
- les librairies disponibles pour Python couvrent un spectre beaucoup
plus large que celles disponibles pour windev
- les bases de données intégrées à windev sont issues du vieux moteur
"hyperfile" , beaucoup trop limité. Avec Python, on peut choisir le SGBD
que l'on veut, sans trop de soucis. Depuis SQL-lite, jusqu'à Oracle (XE
ou autre), on peut assumer tous les niveaux de puissance nécessaire.
- avec Python, on peut faire du multi-threading, du réparti, des
applications web, consoles, invisibles (services), des serveurs COM,
développer des interfaces, ou en utiliser de toutes prêtes, travailler
sur du réseau, piloter des équipements industriels, etc. etc.
- je n'utilise pas le "libre" comme argument, sauf pour un point : si
pc-soft (éditeur de windev) a, un jour de grosses difficultés, le
produit pourrait bien disparaitre soudainement, ce qui n'est pas le cas
de Python, maintenu par une communauté. Or, il y a peu d'années, cette
boîte a eu, justement, d'importants problèmes financiers.

Le gros point fort de windev, c'est un marketing très agressif.
D'ailleurs, si tu veux manger et boire à l'oeil, va suivre les
présentations.

Avant dernier point : tu aurais pu mettre ton message dans le newsgroup
français sur Python.

Dernier point : si quelqu'un veut traduire ce message, il a mon accord
tout entier.



--
@-salutations

Michel Claveau

[Paddy]

Re: windev vs python SOS


My french is attrocious so I got Michels original post machine
transated.
I liked what Michel was saying, maybe others would like to share:

Hello! As you are French, you will coprendras me. Then: - windev is
closed, and protected by dongles. Result: dongle lost, broken down, or
flown, a licence should be repurchased (it arrived to a friend) - the
language of windev is much less advanced than Python. And, when I say
much, it is weak... Python has enormous possibilities in procedural
programming, in Directed Object, and, even, in functional programming.
- the internal structure of Python is extraordinary. Really. - Python
is very easy to learn. There exists much of resources, even in French,
on Internet, in books, etc. - Python is a stable language, with very
very few bugs/problèmes. On this point, windev mark seriously the
step. On certain forums devoted to windev, the number of bugs announced
was frightening. - the bookshops available for Python cover a spectrum
much broader than those available for windev - the data bases
integrated into windev are from the old engine "hyperfile" , too much
limited. With Python, one can choose the DBMS which one wants, without
too concern. Since SQL-lite, until Oracle (XE or other), one can assume
all the levels of power necessary. - with Python, one can make
multi-threading, distributed, Web applications, consoles, invisible
(services), waiters COM, develop interfaces, or of use of all ready,
work on network, control industrial plants, etc etc. - I do not use the
"free one" as argument, except for a point: if PC-SOFTWARE (editor of
windev) has, one day of large difficulties, the product could
disparaitre well suddenly, which is not the case of Python, maintained
by a community. However, few years ago, this box had, precisely, of
financial important problems. The large strong point of windev, it is a
very aggressive marketing. Moreover, if you want to eat and drink with
the eye, will follow the presentations. Before last point: you could
have put your message in the French newsgroup on Python. Last point: if
somebody wants to translate this message, it has my entire agreement.
-- @-greetings Michel Archstone

[jmdeschamps@gmail.com]

Re: windev vs python SOS


MC wrote:

Bonjour !
>
Comme tu es français, tu me coprendras.
>
Alors :
- windev est fermé, et protégé par des dongles. Résultat : dongle
perdu, en panne, ou volé, il faut racheter une licence (c'est arrivé à
un ami)
- le langage de windev est beaucoup moins évolué que Python. Et,
quand je dis beaucoup, c'est faible... Python a des possibilités
énormes en programmation procédurale, en Orienté Objet, et, même,en
programmation fonctionnelle.
- la structure interne de Python est extraordinaire. Vraiment.
- Python est très facile à apprendre. Il existe beaucoup de
ressources, même en français, sur Internet, dans des livres, etc.
- Python est un langage stable, avec très très peu de bugs/problèmes.
Sur ce point, windev marque sérieusement le pas. Sur certains forums
consacrés à windev, le nombre de bugs signalés était effarant.
- les librairies disponibles pour Python couvrent un spectre beaucoup
plus large que celles disponibles pour windev
- les bases de données intégrées à windev sont issues du vieux moteur
"hyperfile" , beaucoup trop limité. Avec Python, on peut choisir le SGBD
que l'on veut, sans trop de soucis. Depuis SQL-lite, jusqu'à Oracle (XE
ou autre), on peut assumer tous les niveaux de puissance nécessaire.
- avec Python, on peut faire du multi-threading, du réparti, des
applications web, consoles, invisibles (services), des serveurs COM,
développer des interfaces, ou en utiliser de toutes prêtes, travailler
sur du réseau, piloter des équipements industriels, etc. etc.
- je n'utilise pas le "libre" comme argument, sauf pour un point : si
pc-soft (éditeur de windev) a, un jour de grosses difficultés, le
produit pourrait bien disparaitre soudainement, ce qui n'est pas le cas
de Python, maintenu par une communauté. Or, il y a peu d'années, cette
boîte a eu, justement, d'importants problèmes financiers.
>
Le gros point fort de windev, c'est un marketing très agressif.
D'ailleurs, si tu veux manger et boire à l'oeil, va suivre les
présentations.
>
Avant dernier point : tu aurais pu mettre ton message dans le newsgroup
français sur Python.
>
Dernier point : si quelqu'un veut traduire ce message, il a mon accord
tout entier.
>
>
>
--
@-salutations
>
Michel Claveau

OK, I'll try a very literal translation (if it seems to makes any sense
at all)

Since you're french, you'll understand this.

So,
- windev is closed, and protected by dongles. Result: lost dongle,
or broke, or stolen, you have to get another licence (It happened to a
friend)
- the windev language isn't close to have evolved like Python has.
And by isn't close, I'm putting it weakly.... Python has great
possibilities for procedural programming, Object-Oriented Programming,
and even funxctional programming
- The internal structure of Python is extraordinary. Really.
- Python is very easy to learn. There are a lot of ressources, even
in french, on Internet, in books, etc.
- Python is a stable language, with very, very few bugs/problems
- On that point, windev really hits the mark. On some fora
pertaining to windev, the number of bugs brough up is appalling.
- The available librairies for Python cover a much wider range than
that available for windev.
- the integrated database of windev comes from the very old
"hyperfile" engine, much too limited. With Python, you can choose the
DB you want, without a lot of worry. From SQL-Lite to Oracle (XE or
other), you can assume any level of capacity required.
- With Python, you can do multi-threading, RPCs, web apps, console
apps, invisible (services), COM servers, build interfaces or use
pre-existing ones, work on networking, drive industrial equipment, etc,
etc
- I'm not using that it's "open" as an argument, except for one
point: if pc-soft (producer of windev) has , one day, some sort of big
problem, the product might suddenly disappear, which is not the case of
Python, maintained by a community. And a few years ago, it just
happened to have some important financial problems

The strong suit of windev lies in its agressive marketing.
And so speaking, if you want free food and drink, attend the
demonstrations

Before last point: you could have posted your message to the french
python newsgroup.

And last, if someone wishes to translate this message, he has might
entire agreement

********
And I hope I did an okay job , michel.

Jean-Marc

[aaaWindev@gmail.com]

Re: windev vs python SOS

Hi Bruno,

Let me guess, your favorite book is the "I HATE THE FRENCH OFFICIAL
HANDBOOK". People here deserve a more objective opinion.

Here you can find what WinDev users have to say about WinDev

http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/testimonials/

There are more testimonials here (in french).

http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/120pages/html/porsche.htm

By the way, Python is a great programming language. What is cool about
WinDev is that the language is closely embedded with the GUI. For
example, to select a line in a browsing table, you may just write:
MyTable = 15 as if MyTable was a variable (it is a powerfull widget
indeed, with searching, sorting, export to Excel, and so on).

--
PatBiker

[MC]

Re: windev vs python SOS

Thank you, Jean-Marc, for translation. I am not capable of this work.

:-)

--
@-salutations

Michel Claveau

[MC]

Re: windev vs python SOS

Thanks.
The essential, is that peoples (& you) can understand. Bbut, perso, I
don't understand the message translated (much unknowed words...)

--
@-salutations

Michel Claveau

[aaaWindev@gmail.com]

Re: windev vs python SOS

Hi Stéphane,

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

First, no matter how good is Python, you should not desagree with your
boss.
Second, Windew is quite good and fun, you will love it.

--
PatBiker

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: windev vs python SOS

aaaWindev@gmail .com wrote:

Hi Bruno,

Heck. PC-Soft marketing droids are pursuing us even here now.

Let me guess, your favorite book is the "I HATE THE FRENCH OFFICIAL
HANDBOOK".

je suis français, pauvre semoule.

People here deserve a more objective opinion.

"objective" ? Lol.

Here you can find what WinDev users have to say about WinDev
>
http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/testimonials/

yes, very objective...

There are more testimonials here (in french).
>
http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/120pages/html/porsche.htm

just as objective.

By the way, Python is a great programming language. What is cool about
WinDev is that the language is closely embedded with the GUI.

The one and only "cool" thing about Windev is that I'll never have to
use this piece of shit again.

For
example, to select a line in a browsing table, you may just write:
MyTable = 15 as if MyTable was a variable (it is a powerfull widget
indeed, with searching, sorting, export to Excel, and so on).

Yeah, great. And you forgot to say that it generates the whole
application by itself, and even make coffee for the programmer.

NB : transmitted to groups-abuse@google.co m who will appreciate if OT
commercial adds are welcomes here.

--
PatBiker
>

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb@xiludom. gro'.split('@')])"

[Kent Johnson]

Re: windev vs python SOS

aaaWindev@gmail .com wrote:

Hi Stéphane,
>
stéphane bard wrote:

>hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
>I have to argue

>
First, no matter how good is Python, you should not desagree with your
boss.
Second, Windew is quite good and fun, you will love it.

Yes, the boss is always right, shut up and drink your Kool-Aid!

;)