Python programs always open source?

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  • Chris Lambacher

    #16
    Re: Python programs always open source?

    On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 09:46:13PM +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
    "Diez B. Roggisch" <deets@nospam.w eb.dewrites:
    >
    Ben Finney schrieb:
    My claim (and IANAL) is that it doesn't matter *what* license
    Python is distributed under; unless you do something with Python
    that is a right of the copyright holder, such as distributing part
    or all of Python, the copyright license terms of Python have no
    legal effect on what license you choose for your own work.
    Not true for the GPL. Part of python is the library, which you
    either use explicit (I can't imagine a program that doesn't, beyond
    print "hello world"), or implicit (sys and os are AFAIX used
    internally to bootstrap the interpreter)
    >
    And just about every program on a GNU/Linux system uses the libc
    library, which is distributed under the GPL. That license *only*
    affects works that are *derivative* of the libc library.
    Hmmm... The copyright file I have for GNU C Library looks to be LGPL:
    """
    Copyright (C) 1991,92,93,94,9 5,96,97,98,99,2 000,2001,2002,2 003 Free Software
    Foundation, Inc.

    The GNU C Library is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
    modify it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public
    License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either
    version 2.1 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.

    The GNU C Library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
    but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
    MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU
    Lesser General Public License for more details.
    """

    The difference between the GPL and the LGPL is the linking thing. Whether or
    not it would hold up in court the FSF believes that GPL libraries mean only
    GPL or GPL compatible licences are allowed to link, while anything can link
    (dynamically not statically) to LGPL libraries.

    """
    Proprietary software developers have the advantage of money; free software
    developers need to make advantages for each other. Using the ordinary GPL for
    a library gives free software developers an advantage over proprietary
    developers: a library that they can use, while proprietary developers cannot
    use it.

    Using the ordinary GPL is not advantageous for every library. There are
    reasons that can make it better to use the Library GPL in certain cases. The
    most common case is when a free library's features are readily available for
    proprietary software through other alternative libraries. In that case, the
    library cannot give free software any particular advantage, so it is better to
    use the Library GPL for that library.
    """
    >
    And the GPL exactly requires that when a library licensed under it
    is used, that makes the using program GPL-licensed, too.
    >
    No, only when a new work *derives from* the existing work does
    copyright on the existing work take effect.
    >
    You may be thinking of the "linking" clause, which depends on the
    *inclusion of* existing header files from the library code, supplied
    under the GPL. There's no such concept in an interpreted language like
    Python: you write your program in the Python language without
    including a single piece of the original in your work.
    >
    The GPL itself is clear on the fact that its terms cannot claim
    anything that is not granted to the copyright holder -- and
    *execution* of a library is not a right over which the library author
    has any rights.
    >
    Even if execution (or "use") of a program library, without including
    *any* of its code in your own work, were a right the library author
    could restrict, no free software program can place any restriction on
    execution (otherwise it's trivially non-free). If Python's license
    were ever to have such a restrictive term, it would likely be
    unenforcible, but would certainly disqualify it from inclusion in any
    free operating system.
    >
    Copyright is currently weighted greatly in favour of copyright
    holders, but please don't buy into the absolute-power rhetoric more
    than necessary.
    >
    --
    \ "Yesterday I told a chicken to cross the road. It said, 'What |
    `\ for?'" -- Steven Wright |
    _o__) |
    Ben Finney
    >
    --
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

    Comment

    • Ben Finney

      #17
      Re: Python programs always open source?

      Chris Lambacher <chris@kateandc hris.netwrites:
      On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 09:46:13PM +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
      "Diez B. Roggisch" <deets@nospam.w eb.dewrites:
      Ben Finney schrieb:
      My claim (and IANAL) is that it doesn't matter *what* license
      Python is distributed under; unless you do something with Python
      that is a right of the copyright holder, such as distributing part
      or all of Python, the copyright license terms of Python have no
      legal effect on what license you choose for your own work.
      >
      Not true for the GPL. Part of python is the library, which you
      either use explicit (I can't imagine a program that doesn't, beyond
      print "hello world"), or implicit (sys and os are AFAIX used
      internally to bootstrap the interpreter)
      And just about every program on a GNU/Linux system uses the libc
      library, which is distributed under the GPL. That license *only*
      affects works that are *derivative* of the libc library.
      Hmmm... The copyright file I have for GNU C Library looks to be LGPL:
      True, that was a poorly chosen example.

      There are many programs and libraries on a GNU/Linux system that are
      licensed under the GPL. Programs that *derive from* them (by, for
      instance, using their C header files as part of the program source)
      must comply with the terms of the GPL. Programs that merely *use* that
      functionality during execution are not affected by the GPL.

      That latter case is the only one for most interpreted Python programs:
      no part of the library is in the source code of the Python program, so
      the license of that library doesn't affect the licensing of the
      program.

      Write your program in Python, and you can ignore the Python license
      when you distribute your own work. We'd love to see you distribute it
      under a free software license, but the license of Python has no legal
      effect on your decision.

      --
      \ "Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." -- |
      `\ Groucho Marx |
      _o__) |
      Ben Finney

      Comment

      • Steve Holden

        #18
        Re: Python programs always open source?

        Ben Finney wrote:
        [...]
        That latter case is the only one for most interpreted Python programs:
        no part of the library is in the source code of the Python program, so
        the license of that library doesn't affect the licensing of the
        program.
        >
        Write your program in Python, and you can ignore the Python license
        when you distribute your own work. We'd love to see you distribute it
        under a free software license, but the license of Python has no legal
        effect on your decision.
        >
        Given that many people distribute (enough of) the interpreter with their
        Python programs I wouldn't like the above to be regarded as a blanket
        statement that the Python license doesn't have to be considered when
        distributing the interpreter with program source.

        regards
        Steve
        --
        Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
        Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com
        Skype: holdenweb http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
        Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden

        Comment

        • Ben Finney

          #19
          Re: Python programs always open source?

          Steve Holden <steve@holdenwe b.comwrites:
          Ben Finney wrote:
          Write your program in Python, and you can ignore the Python
          license when you distribute your own work. We'd love to see you
          distribute it under a free software license, but the license of
          Python has no legal effect on your decision.
          >
          Given that many people distribute (enough of) the interpreter with
          their Python programs I wouldn't like the above to be regarded as a
          blanket statement that the Python license doesn't have to be
          considered when distributing the interpreter with program source.
          Yes, this is true; I was deliberately omitting the case where parts of
          Python *are* being redistributed. How about this:

          Write your program in Python, distribute it without including any part
          of Python itself, and you can ignore the Python license. We'd love to
          see you distribute your work under a free software license, but the
          license of Python has no legal effect on your decision in that case.

          --
          \ "Nature abhors a moron." -- Henry L. Mencken |
          `\ |
          _o__) |
          Ben Finney

          Comment

          • Magnus Lycka

            #20
            Re: Python programs always open source?

            Ben Finney wrote:
            Leif K-Brooks <eurleif@ecritt ers.bizwrites:
            >
            >>>Ben Finney wrote:
            >>>>So long as you're not distributing some or all of Python itself,
            >>>>or a derivative work, the license for Python has no legal effect
            >>>>on what license you choose for your own work.
            >
            >I was replying to Ben Finney's claim that in a hypothetical world
            >where Python was licensed under the GPL, there would still be no
            >restriction on distributing Python programs under a closed-source
            >license.
            >
            My claim (and IANAL) is that it doesn't matter *what* license Python
            is distributed under; unless you do something with Python that is a
            right of the copyright holder, such as distributing part or all of
            Python, the copyright license terms of Python have no legal effect on
            what license you choose for your own work.
            As I read the GPL, you should be ok if you don't copy, distribute or
            modify Python (if Python was GPL). Those are the activities covered
            by the GPL license. Using py2exe to make a binary with both Python
            and your own code would be a different matter. Even distributing a CD
            with a GPL Python and your python modules would be a problem, since
            you would be distributing GPL software with non-GPL software which will
            be combined into a program as you run it.

            If you just distribute your .py files, it probably doesn't matter if
            someone else will run the unholy combination of GPL Python and
            nongpl.py. I don't think a judge would consider executing
            "gplpython nonglp.py" being copying, distribution or modification.

            On the other hand, I think your "doesn't matter *what* license
            Python is distributed under"-claim holds. If we are allowed to think
            up other evil licenses, they could make claims on all files ever used
            with their evil software, and I doubt that you could develop non-
            trivial software without ever invoking it.

            Still, the important thing is that Python uses a license which is
            convenient for both proprietary software development and open source.

            Comment

            • Steve Holden

              #21
              Re: Python programs always open source?

              Magnus Lycka wrote:
              Ben Finney wrote:
              >
              >>Leif K-Brooks <eurleif@ecritt ers.bizwrites:
              >>
              >>
              >>>>>Ben Finney wrote:
              >>>>>
              >>>>>>So long as you're not distributing some or all of Python itself,
              >>>>>>or a derivative work, the license for Python has no legal effect
              >>>>>>on what license you choose for your own work.
              >>
              >>>I was replying to Ben Finney's claim that in a hypothetical world
              >>>where Python was licensed under the GPL, there would still be no
              >>>restrictio n on distributing Python programs under a closed-source
              >>>license.
              >>
              >>My claim (and IANAL) is that it doesn't matter *what* license Python
              >>is distributed under; unless you do something with Python that is a
              >>right of the copyright holder, such as distributing part or all of
              >>Python, the copyright license terms of Python have no legal effect on
              >>what license you choose for your own work.
              >
              >
              As I read the GPL, you should be ok if you don't copy, distribute or
              modify Python (if Python was GPL).
              Since Python *isn't* GPL, can we please move this discussion to
              universe.hypoth etical.discuss?

              regards
              Steve
              --
              Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
              Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com
              Skype: holdenweb http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
              Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden

              Comment

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