Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

**Scott David Daniels** · Jun 15 '06, 03:15 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

meyer@mesw.de wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi everyone,
>
> which compiler will Python 2.5 on Windows (Intel) be built with?[/color]

Same as for Python 2.4 (the decision was taken a while ago).
Intel sells a compatible compiler, I believe.
--
--Scott David Daniels
scott.daniels@a cm.org

**Jarek Zgoda** · Jun 15 '06, 04:05 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

Scott David Daniels napisa³(a):
[color=blue][color=green]
>> which compiler will Python 2.5 on Windows (Intel) be built with?[/color]
>
> Same as for Python 2.4 (the decision was taken a while ago).
> Intel sells a compatible compiler, I believe.[/color]

Sounds rather bad.

Anyway, there should be some kits available from second-hand at auction
websites. Besides no free (as in "free beer") toolkit will be available,
as noone except Microsoft can distribute it.

--
Jarek Zgoda

http://jpa.berlios.de/

**nikie** · Jun 15 '06, 04:25 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

meyer@mesw.de wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hi everyone,
>
> which compiler will Python 2.5 on Windows (Intel) be built with? I
> notice that Python 2.4 apparently has been built with the VS2003
> toolkit compiler, and I read a post from Scott David Daniels [1] where
> he said that probably the VS2003 toolkit will be used for Python 2.5
> again. However, even before the release of Python 2.5, I cannot seem to
> find many retailers around here that still carry Visual Studio 2003,
> and some were a bit surprised about my request since Visual Studio 2005
> has been available for some months now. ...[/color]

If you want to *buy* VS 2003, you could still purchase a 1-year MSDN
Pro Subscription. The price difference isn't *that* big compared to a
single-user license of VS, and it automatically includes past VS
versions (everything from VC++ 6.0 and upwards, IIRC).

**Jarek Zgoda** · Jun 15 '06, 04:25 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

nikie napisa³(a):
[color=blue]
> If you want to *buy* VS 2003, you could still purchase a 1-year MSDN
> Pro Subscription. The price difference isn't *that* big compared to a
> single-user license of VS, and it automatically includes past VS
> versions (everything from VC++ 6.0 and upwards, IIRC).[/color]

This doesn't make building Python exension libraries any easier.

In some cases, you can still build Python extension with MinGW. I didn't
try this with anything more complicated than linking to libxml2, but
still, it's some workaround. Not sure about the performace of such
build, though.

--
Jarek Zgoda

http://jpa.berlios.de/

**Steve Holden** · Jun 15 '06, 04:45 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

meyer@mesw.de wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi everyone,
>
> which compiler will Python 2.5 on Windows (Intel) be built with?[/color]

The default build will be the VC 2003 compiler as for 2.4, but there
will also be VC 2005 project support files in a PCBuild8 subdirectory,
if current efforts by CCP succeed. I am certainly compiling the 2.5
trunk with VC 2005 (VC++ 8.0, IIRC).

It would be great if Tim Peters got more support for his efforts in that
area, so it's good to see people besides Tim, Mark Hammond and Martin
von Loewis doing significant work on that platform.

Eventually someone may contribute (say) mingw support, but I'm not aware
that anyone has yet stood up for the challenge of getting that into the
distributions (and anyway I suspect that VC 200X will remain the default).

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com
Love me, love my blog http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden

**meyer@mesw.de** · Jun 15 '06, 05:15 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

Scott,

Scott David Daniels wrote:[color=blue]
> meyer@mesw.de wrote:[color=green]
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > which compiler will Python 2.5 on Windows (Intel) be built with?[/color]
>
> Same as for Python 2.4 (the decision was taken a while ago).
> Intel sells a compatible compiler, I believe.[/color]

the problem is not the ABI, but the runtime libraries. From what you're
saying, it looks like we will have to standardize on VS2003. As I said,
we need to buy VS anyway because of the MFC support. On the other hand,
I really worry about all those people that want to build open source
extensions for Python 2.5. It is really possible that there will be no
legal, free way to do that soon if you don't have an old installation
of the 2003 toolkit lying around somewhere... So I'd like to ask you:
why was the decision taken a while ago (and is not subject to
reconsideration ) and what are the reasons for using VS2003? I mean
there must be a real good reason why you're doing this, as I only see
disadvantages in it.

Markus

**Mr Roboto** · Jun 15 '06, 05:15 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

Jarek Zgoda wrote:[color=blue]
> nikie napisa³(a):
>[color=green]
> > If you want to *buy* VS 2003, you could still purchase a 1-year MSDN
> > Pro Subscription. The price difference isn't *that* big compared to a
> > single-user license of VS, and it automatically includes past VS
> > versions (everything from VC++ 6.0 and upwards, IIRC).[/color]
>
> This doesn't make building Python exension libraries any easier.
>
> In some cases, you can still build Python extension with MinGW. I didn't
> try this with anything more complicated than linking to libxml2, but
> still, it's some workaround. Not sure about the performace of such
> build, though.
>
> --
> Jarek Zgoda
> http://jpa.berlios.de/[/color]

I haven't personally tried a Python compile w/ this, but I'll
share it in hopes that it'll help: one can download a free copy
of Visual C++ 2K5 *Express* from microsoft itself. If you're
interested, try:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualc/default.aspx

It's legal, free (no registration, no BS.) HTH....MR

**meyer@mesw.de** · Jun 15 '06, 05:25 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

Mr Roboto wrote:[color=blue]
> I haven't personally tried a Python compile w/ this, but I'll
> share it in hopes that it'll help: one can download a free copy
> of Visual C++ 2K5 *Express* from microsoft itself. If you're
> interested, try:[/color]

The problem is, when you compile an extension module with VS (Express)
2005 and try to load it in a VS2003-compiled Python (which apparently
2.5 will be), there will be errors. So you have to recompile Python
itself with VS2005. This in turn will make it incompatible with any
binary open-source extension out there. E.g., if you use wxPython, you
will then have to recompile that also etc. pp. Also, since there is no
"official" support for the build with VS 2005, it is not clear, if the
differences in the compiler will introduce subtile bugs, say in memory
handling and the like. All in all, this situation feels not good to
me...

Markus

**Fredrik Lundh** · Jun 15 '06, 05:45 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

meyer@mesw.de wrote:
[color=blue]
> the problem is not the ABI, but the runtime libraries. From what you're
> saying, it looks like we will have to standardize on VS2003. As I said,
> we need to buy VS anyway because of the MFC support. On the other hand,
> I really worry about all those people that want to build open source
> extensions for Python 2.5. It is really possible that there will be no
> legal, free way to do that soon if you don't have an old installation
> of the 2003 toolkit lying around somewhere... So I'd like to ask you:
> why was the decision taken a while ago (and is not subject to
> reconsideration ) and what are the reasons for using VS2003? I mean
> there must be a real good reason why you're doing this, as I only see
> disadvantages in it.[/color]

hint: most people who provide third-party extensions to Python support
more than just the latest Python version...

</F>

**Jarek Zgoda** · Jun 15 '06, 06:35 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

Fredrik Lundh napisa³(a):
[color=blue]
> hint: most people who provide third-party extensions to Python support
> more than just the latest Python version...[/color]

We're happy with your support for us, Windows users, but you are an
exception to the general rule of providing only sources.

That's the reason we are fragile on compiler. If the core will be buid
with "non-generally-available" compiler, we would end up with searching
for person willing to compile a library for us, if the MinGW way won't
succeed. I'd like to see core compiled with latest available "free"
toolkit compiler available, as previous versions can not be downloaded
from provider's home.

--
Jarek Zgoda

http://jpa.berlios.de/

**Scott David Daniels** · Jun 15 '06, 08:15 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

meyer@mesw.de wrote:[color=blue]
> ... So I'd like to ask you:
> why was the decision taken a while ago (and is not subject to
> reconsideration ) and what are the reasons for using VS2003? I mean
> there must be a real good reason why you're doing this, as I only see
> disadvantages in it.[/color]

The disruption in Python 2.4 in switching from one compiler (VC6) to
another VS2003 was not insubstantial. By sticking with VS2003, sometime
users can at least use the same tool for Python 2.4 and Python 2.5. It
does seem inevitable we will have to switch for 2.6. We are very far
along in the process of releasing Python 2.5 (beta1 is due out soon),
and rebuilding and testing with a new translation system is too big a
change at this point.

Note there was strong resistance to leaving VC6 for Python 2.4. That
resistance was overcome only by the fact that it was no longer possible
to purchase suitable versions of VC6.

--Scott David Daniels
scott.daniels@a cm.org

**Chris Lambacher** · Jun 15 '06, 08:35 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 08:36:21PM +0200, Jarek Zgoda wrote:[color=blue]
> Fredrik Lundh napisa?(a):
>[color=green]
> > hint: most people who provide third-party extensions to Python support
> > more than just the latest Python version...[/color]
>
> We're happy with your support for us, Windows users, but you are an
> exception to the general rule of providing only sources.
>
> That's the reason we are fragile on compiler. If the core will be buid
> with "non-generally-available" compiler, we would end up with searching
> for person willing to compile a library for us, if the MinGW way won't
> succeed. I'd like to see core compiled with latest available "free"
> toolkit compiler available, as previous versions can not be downloaded
> from provider's home.[/color]
There is only one extension that I have ever found that I could not build with
MingW. That one was the win32all extensions. The free (beer) compiler that
Microsoft provides did not work for that either since you MFC.

There should be no problem building extensions with MinGW unless you are
writing an extension to an extension that was written in C++ and distributed
only in object form(ie no source), or the extension makes use of the c
runtime (fopen, printf etc).

That said it would be nice if the barrier to entry on compiling Python windows
was reduced by making the effort to moving to gcc as the compiler. Given that
this argument has come up several times on both c.l.p and the python-dev list
with no one biting, I would say that it is not likely to happen any time soon.

I also seem to remember a discussion about it being possible to compile python
with VS2005, but you would then be responsible for your own build of python,
plus building any extension modules you need.

-Chris

**Jarek Zgoda** · Jun 15 '06, 08:35 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

Scott David Daniels napisa³(a):
[color=blue]
> The disruption in Python 2.4 in switching from one compiler (VC6) to
> another VS2003 was not insubstantial. By sticking with VS2003, sometime
> users can at least use the same tool for Python 2.4 and Python 2.5. It
> does seem inevitable we will have to switch for 2.6. We are very far
> along in the process of releasing Python 2.5 (beta1 is due out soon),
> and rebuilding and testing with a new translation system is too big a
> change at this point.
>
> Note there was strong resistance to leaving VC6 for Python 2.4. That
> resistance was overcome only by the fact that it was no longer possible
> to purchase suitable versions of VC6.[/color]

Fcuk, now it's nearly impossible to buy VC2003 toolkit. What now?
Shouldn't Python dev team switch to current MS compiler?

Sorry, gals and guys, but if you force us to buy something irrelevant
like VC2003, you will not get our sympathy. How should I explain my boss
that we need to buy one Pro license more, just to be able to build our
Python app? Please, don't left us with pants down.

--
Jarek Zgoda

http://jpa.berlios.de/

**Fredrik Lundh** · Jun 15 '06, 09:05 PM

Re: Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

Jarek Zgoda wrote:
[color=blue]
> Sorry, gals and guys, but if you force us to buy something irrelevant
> like VC2003, you will not get our sympathy. How should I explain my boss
> that we need to buy one Pro license more, just to be able to build our
> Python app? Please, don't left us with pants down.[/color]

huh? 2.5 isn't released yet. if you *have* a Python app, you can
continue to use the same compiler when you upgrade from 2.4 and 2.5.
it's not like anyone is forcing you to uninstall the compiler just
because you upgrade Python...

</F>

Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

Which compiler will Python 2.5 / Windows (Intel) be built with?

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