Tiddlywiki type project in Python?

[jkn]

Hi all
I'm trying out, and in general finding really useful, the various
TiddlyWiki variants that I guess many people here know about, for
organising my activities in a GTD way. One mild annoyance is in the
speed of the Javascript applications. I fancy having a go at writing
something like this for myself, where update speed would be a higher
priority.

I don't know Javascript (although it looks moderately simple from a
brief peruse, and I know enough languages to know I'll be able to pick
it up); however I do know and use Python, although not nuch in a
web-oriented way. Since unlike JS, python is at least pre-compiled, I
have hopes that this would make things quicker. I do appreciate that JS
is built into the browser, which might make my Python approach slower.
I'm not sure of the 'architectural' approach to this; any suggestions,
and maybe pointers to previous work?

Thanks in advance
Jon N

[bruno at modulix]

Re: Tiddlywiki type project in Python?

jkn wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi all
> I'm trying out, and in general finding really useful, the various
> TiddlyWiki variants that I guess many people here know about, for
> organising my activities in a GTD way. One mild annoyance is in the
> speed of the Javascript applications. I fancy having a go at writing
> something like this for myself, where update speed would be a higher
> priority.
>
> I don't know Javascript (although it looks moderately simple from a
> brief peruse,[/color]

It's not as simple as it may seem at first look. There are some real
gotchas. But if you want a more pythonic javascript, you should have a
look at mochikit.
[color=blue]
> and I know enough languages to know I'll be able to pick
> it up); however I do know and use Python, although not nuch in a
> web-oriented way. Since unlike JS, python is at least pre-compiled, I
> have hopes that this would make things quicker. I do appreciate that JS
> is built into the browser, which might make my Python approach slower.
> I'm not sure of the 'architectural' approach to this; any suggestions,
> and maybe pointers to previous work?[/color]

I don't really understand what you're after here, since TiddlyWikiLikes
can *not* work without javascript.

Anyway, there's at least a Zope-based TiddlyWikiLike, so you may want to
have a look here:

http://ziddlywiki.org/

HTH
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb@xiludom. gro'.split('@')])"

[jkn]

Re: Tiddlywiki type project in Python?

Hi Bruno

[...][color=blue][color=green]
> >
> > I don't know Javascript (although it looks moderately simple from a
> > brief peruse,[/color]
>
> It's not as simple as it may seem at first look. There are some real
> gotchas. But if you want a more pythonic javascript, you should have a
> look at mochikit.[/color]

OK, thanks for the pointer

[...]
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > and I know enough languages to know I'll be able to pick
> > it up); however I do know and use Python, although not nuch in a
> > web-oriented way. Since unlike JS, python is at least pre-compiled, I
> > have hopes that this would make things quicker. I do appreciate that JS
> > is built into the browser, which might make my Python approach slower.
> > I'm not sure of the 'architectural' approach to this; any suggestions,
> > and maybe pointers to previous work?[/color]
>
> I don't really understand what you're after here, since TiddlyWikiLikes
> can *not* work without javascript.[/color]

Well, that may be an/the answer, since another form of my question
would be 'how can I write a TiddlyWikiLike using Python instead of JS'
;-). I appreciate that it might involve, for instance, a local server.
Does the idea of embedding python in a browser instead of Javascript
make any sense at all?
[color=blue]
>
> Anyway, there's at least a Zope-based TiddlyWikiLike, so you may want to
> have a look here:
> http://ziddlywiki.org/
>[/color]

Thanks again

jon N

[bruno at modulix]

Re: Tiddlywiki type project in Python?

jkn wrote:
(snip)[color=blue]
> Does the idea of embedding python in a browser instead of Javascript
> make any sense at all?[/color]

From a purely theoretical POV, yes, this idea makes sens - Python could
be an interesting alternative to javascript for client-side scripting
(and I'd really prefer using Python for this - but I may be a bit biased
!-). But note that there may be some issues wrt/ significative
indentation and security.

Now the problem is that no browser actually supports Python for
client-side scripting. And I really doubt this will change in a near
future.

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb@xiludom. gro'.split('@')])"

[Diez B. Roggisch]

Re: Tiddlywiki type project in Python?

> Well, that may be an/the answer, since another form of my question[color=blue]
> would be 'how can I write a TiddlyWikiLike using Python instead of JS'
> ;-). I appreciate that it might involve, for instance, a local server.
> Does the idea of embedding python in a browser instead of Javascript
> make any sense at all?[/color]

Nope. Not really.


Diez

[Paul Boddie]

Re: Tiddlywiki type project in Python?

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:[color=blue]
>[/color]

[Quoting jkn...]
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Well, that may be an/the answer, since another form of my question
> > would be 'how can I write a TiddlyWikiLike using Python instead of JS'
> > ;-). I appreciate that it might involve, for instance, a local server.
> > Does the idea of embedding python in a browser instead of Javascript
> > make any sense at all?[/color]
>
> Nope. Not really.[/color]

While I think TiddlyWiki is interesting from the perspective of
creating sites that are editable in the browser without having to
install or configure server-side Wiki software (which many people find
intimidating, even if it's a ten line program that uses
BaseHTTPServer) , the drawbacks are numerous: even moderately small
Wikis are slow since browser-based DOMs aren't designed for storing and
manipulating large documents; published Wikis can be edited and saved,
but their changes remain unmerged with the original unless you install
various server-side extensions, compromising the simple "all in one
place" storage model; last time I looked, production of non-Wiki,
navigable sites from TiddlyWiki wasn't supported unless you wrote your
own tools. A lot of the effort getting around these problems is
arguably better invested in coming to terms with installing some
traditional Wiki software.

But where I don't agree with a negative assessment of Python in the
browser is in one area that TiddlyWiki inadvertently illustrates quite
nicely: the ability to conveniently distribute a sandbox to other
people which has its own rather nice, widely-supported input/output
system. People have been more enthusiastic about virtualisation
recently: "safe Python" in the browser (or with other visualisation
front-ends) would be a good lightweight virtualisation solution of
sorts, I think.

Paul

[R. P. Dillon]

Re: Tiddlywiki type project in Python?

I've been doing some work on a didiwiki-like program written in Python.
Since Python is embedded in browsers, the didwiki approach make sense:
write the server in your language of choice (didwiki uses C), and lay
the necessary (simple) wiki code on top of the server. Roll the entire
thing into a single executable, and you have a personal wiki. The catch
is that you must run the executable before you can access your wiki, but
it is a small price to pay IMHO.

Anyway, I'll either GPL or public-domain my code when I'm finished with
it and I'll post it here. My hope is it will be as fast on a reasonably
modern computer as didiwiki is.

Rick

jkn wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi Bruno
>
> [...][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> I don't know Javascript (although it looks moderately simple from a
>>> brief peruse,[/color]
>> It's not as simple as it may seem at first look. There are some real
>> gotchas. But if you want a more pythonic javascript, you should have a
>> look at mochikit.[/color]
>
> OK, thanks for the pointer
>
> [...]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> and I know enough languages to know I'll be able to pick
>>> it up); however I do know and use Python, although not nuch in a
>>> web-oriented way. Since unlike JS, python is at least pre-compiled, I
>>> have hopes that this would make things quicker. I do appreciate that JS
>>> is built into the browser, which might make my Python approach slower.
>>> I'm not sure of the 'architectural' approach to this; any suggestions,
>>> and maybe pointers to previous work?[/color]
>> I don't really understand what you're after here, since TiddlyWikiLikes
>> can *not* work without javascript.[/color]
>
> Well, that may be an/the answer, since another form of my question
> would be 'how can I write a TiddlyWikiLike using Python instead of JS'
> ;-). I appreciate that it might involve, for instance, a local server.
> Does the idea of embedding python in a browser instead of Javascript
> make any sense at all?
>[color=green]
>> Anyway, there's at least a Zope-based TiddlyWikiLike, so you may want to
>> have a look here:
>> http://ziddlywiki.org/
>>[/color]
>
> Thanks again
>
> jon N
>[/color]

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[R. P. Dillon]

Re: Tiddlywiki type project in Python?

That should have said "Since Python _isn't_ embedded in browsers"!

Rick

R. P. Dillon wrote:[color=blue]
> I've been doing some work on a didiwiki-like program written in Python.
> Since Python is embedded in browsers, the didwiki approach make sense:
> write the server in your language of choice (didwiki uses C), and lay
> the necessary (simple) wiki code on top of the server. Roll the entire
> thing into a single executable, and you have a personal wiki. The catch
> is that you must run the executable before you can access your wiki, but
> it is a small price to pay IMHO.
>
> Anyway, I'll either GPL or public-domain my code when I'm finished with
> it and I'll post it here. My hope is it will be as fast on a reasonably
> modern computer as didiwiki is.
>
> Rick
>
> jkn wrote:[color=green]
>> Hi Bruno
>>
>> [...][color=darkred]
>>>> I don't know Javascript (although it looks moderately simple from a
>>>> brief peruse,
>>> It's not as simple as it may seem at first look. There are some real
>>> gotchas. But if you want a more pythonic javascript, you should have a
>>> look at mochikit.[/color]
>>
>> OK, thanks for the pointer
>>
>> [...]
>>[color=darkred]
>>>> and I know enough languages to know I'll be able to pick
>>>> it up); however I do know and use Python, although not nuch in a
>>>> web-oriented way. Since unlike JS, python is at least pre-compiled, I
>>>> have hopes that this would make things quicker. I do appreciate that JS
>>>> is built into the browser, which might make my Python approach slower.
>>>> I'm not sure of the 'architectural' approach to this; any suggestions,
>>>> and maybe pointers to previous work?
>>> I don't really understand what you're after here, since TiddlyWikiLikes
>>> can *not* work without javascript.[/color]
>>
>> Well, that may be an/the answer, since another form of my question
>> would be 'how can I write a TiddlyWikiLike using Python instead of JS'
>> ;-). I appreciate that it might involve, for instance, a local server.
>> Does the idea of embedding python in a browser instead of Javascript
>> make any sense at all?
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Anyway, there's at least a Zope-based TiddlyWikiLike, so you may want to
>>> have a look here:
>>> http://ziddlywiki.org/
>>>[/color]
>>
>> Thanks again
>>
>> jon N
>>[/color]
>
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> News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> Newsgroups
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[jkn]

Re: Tiddlywiki type project in Python?

Hi Rick

R. P. Dillon wrote:[color=blue]
> I've been doing some work on a didiwiki-like program written in Python.
> Since Python is [_not_] embedded in browsers, the didwiki approach make sense:
> write the server in your language of choice (didwiki uses C), and lay
> the necessary (simple) wiki code on top of the server. Roll the entire
> thing into a single executable, and you have a personal wiki. The catch
> is that you must run the executable before you can access your wiki, but
> it is a small price to pay IMHO.
>
> Anyway, I'll either GPL or public-domain my code when I'm finished with
> it and I'll post it here. My hope is it will be as fast on a reasonably
> modern computer as didiwiki is.
>
> Rick[/color]

That sounds interesting ... thanks. I'd never heard of didiwiki and
from a brief browse it seems similar to what I have in mind. I will
download it and have a proper look at it ... & will be glad to hear
more of your project.

Regards
Jon N