Zope 3

[Derick van Niekerk]

I have been developing in PHP for some time now and needed to look into
application frameworks to speed up my development. I was looking into
Horde and CakePHP before I was introduced to Python. I started learing
python and within a few *hours* I already wrote my first small program
and I still use it!

I love Python! Then I was introduced to Zope by freak accident. While
Zope looked like the answer to my dillemma, I still can't get my head
wrapped around it. Is it because I don't know Python well enough? Or is
it just that difficult to learn?

I would like to start my next web project (a database of demographic
info on scientists in Africa) on Zope 3. Could anybody point me in the
right direction? Where should I start?

[bruno at modulix]

Re: Zope 3

Derick van Niekerk wrote:[color=blue]
> I have been developing in PHP for some time now and needed to look into
> application frameworks to speed up my development. I was looking into
> Horde and CakePHP before I was introduced to Python. I started learing
> python and within a few *hours* I already wrote my first small program
> and I still use it!
>
> I love Python! Then I was introduced to Zope by freak accident. While
> Zope looked like the answer to my dillemma, I still can't get my head
> wrapped around it. Is it because I don't know Python well enough? Or is
> it just that difficult to learn?[/color]

Zope is a world in itself - and is certainly not the simplest tool to
learn (nor the most pythonic). You may want to consider other options
like Django, Pylon or Turbogears.

My 2 cents.
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb@xiludom. gro'.split('@')])"

[Benji York]

Re: Zope 3

bruno at modulix wrote:[color=blue]
> Zope is a world in itself - and is certainly not the simplest tool to
> learn (nor the most pythonic).[/color]

Those statements apply more to Zope 2 than Zope 3 (and Zope 2 is moving
more and more toward Zope 3 these days). One of Zope 3's main goals was
to focus on the Python programmer as a primary target. That being said
there /are/ some powerful and novel concepts used in Z3 (the component
framework).
[color=blue]
> You may want to consider other options like Django, Pylon or Turbogears.[/color]

It's true that Z3 is not currently focused very well on the
"middle-class" developer. It's more of an industrial-strength kind of
thing, but considerable thought has been given lately on how to build
bridges so everyone can benefit without being full-time Zope masters.

Toward that end, I wrote a little quick start guide that might help the
OP: http://www.benjiyork.com/quick_start
--
Benji York

[Steve Juranich]

Re: Zope 3

Derick van Niekerk wrote:
[color=blue]
> I love Python! Then I was introduced to Zope by freak accident. While
> Zope looked like the answer to my dillemma, I still can't get my head
> wrapped around it. Is it because I don't know Python well enough? Or is
> it just that difficult to learn?[/color]

I've been hacking Python now for 6 years. I just picked up Zope last month
and found the learning curve to be quite steep. It's not just you.
There's a lot of stuff there.
[color=blue]
> I would like to start my next web project (a database of demographic
> info on scientists in Africa) on Zope 3. Could anybody point me in the
> right direction? Where should I start?[/color]

After you look through the tutorial (which is simply a Zope product you can
add from the main page of the ZMI (Zope Management Interface), have a peek
at the Zope book
(http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Bo...6Edition/view). Don't
worry about the version (2.6) of the book. It's the latest they have (I
think they're working on a new one for z3). You can skip the bits about
DTML, but keep them handy.

You should also take a look at the Zope user list:

http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope

Hope this all helps.
--
Steve Juranich
Tucson, AZ
USA

[bruno at modulix]

Re: Zope 3

Benji York wrote:[color=blue]
> bruno at modulix wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Zope is a world in itself - and is certainly not the simplest tool to
>> learn (nor the most pythonic).[/color]
>
>
> Those statements apply more to Zope 2 than Zope 3 (and Zope 2 is moving
> more and more toward Zope 3 these days). One of Zope 3's main goals was
> to focus on the Python programmer as a primary target. That being said
> there /are/ some powerful and novel concepts used in Z3 (the component
> framework).[/color]

While it's true that Zope3 is more 'python-programmer oriented' than
Zope2 - and probably much safer wrt/ developper's sanity -, it's still a
world on it's own, it's still a complex framework, and it's still not
very pythonic (IMHO based on 2+ years experience with Zope2, with or
without the CMF, and some time spent evaluating Zope3).
[color=blue][color=green]
>> You may want to consider other options like Django, Pylon or Turbogears.[/color]
>
>
> It's true that Z3 is not currently focused very well on the
> "middle-class" developer.[/color]

That's an understatement !-)
[color=blue]
> It's more of an industrial-strength kind of
> thing, but considerable thought has been given lately on how to build
> bridges so everyone can benefit without being full-time Zope masters.
>
> Toward that end, I wrote a little quick start guide that might help the
> OP: http://www.benjiyork.com/quick_start[/color]


--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb@xiludom. gro'.split('@')])"

[bruno at modulix]

Re: Zope 3

Steve Juranich wrote:[color=blue]
> Derick van Niekerk wrote:[/color]
(snip)[color=blue][color=green]
>>I would like to start my next web project (a database of demographic
>>info on scientists in Africa) on Zope 3. Could anybody point me in the
>>right direction? Where should I start?[/color]
>
>
> After you look through the tutorial (which is simply a Zope product you can
> add from the main page of the ZMI (Zope Management Interface), have a peek
> at the Zope book
> (http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Bo...6Edition/view).[/color]

Actually, the OP was asking about Zope3, which is a *very* different beast.

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb@xiludom. gro'.split('@')])"

[Egon Frerich]

Re: Zope 3

What is pythonic? See:

http://faassen.n--tree.net/blog/view/weblog/2005/08/06/0

bruno at modulix schrieb am 25.04.2006 17:10:
[color=blue]
> Benji York wrote:[color=green]
>> bruno at modulix wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Zope is a world in itself - and is certainly not the simplest tool to
>>> learn (nor the most pythonic).[/color]
>>
>> Those statements apply more to Zope 2 than Zope 3 (and Zope 2 is moving
>> more and more toward Zope 3 these days). One of Zope 3's main goals was
>> to focus on the Python programmer as a primary target. That being said
>> there /are/ some powerful and novel concepts used in Z3 (the component
>> framework).[/color]
>
> While it's true that Zope3 is more 'python-programmer oriented' than
> Zope2 - and probably much safer wrt/ developper's sanity -, it's still a
> world on it's own, it's still a complex framework, and it's still not
> very pythonic (IMHO based on 2+ years experience with Zope2, with or
> without the CMF, and some time spent evaluating Zope3).
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> You may want to consider other options like Django, Pylon or Turbogears.[/color]
>>
>> It's true that Z3 is not currently focused very well on the
>> "middle-class" developer.[/color]
>
> That's an understatement !-)
>[color=green]
>> It's more of an industrial-strength kind of
>> thing, but considerable thought has been given lately on how to build
>> bridges so everyone can benefit without being full-time Zope masters.
>>
>> Toward that end, I wrote a little quick start guide that might help the
>> OP: http://www.benjiyork.com/quick_start[/color]
>
>[/color]

--
Egon Frerich, Freudenbergstr. 16, 28213 Bremen

E-Mail: e.frerich@nord-com.net

[Steve Juranich]

Re: Zope 3

bruno at modulix wrote:
[color=blue]
> Actually, the OP was asking about Zope3, which is a *very* different
> beast.[/color]

Okay, so my ignorance is showing (/me pauses to stuff it back where it
belongs). So is there some big master diff, along the lines of "What's new
in Python X.X" that I could look at to get an idea of what z3 has that 2.9
(which I'm currently still cutting my teeth on) doesn't? I've looked at
the documentation on the main Zope page (zope.org) and all of the documents
I've seen are apparently geared towards Zope 2.X. Where are the Zope3
docs?

Thanks.

--
Steve Juranich
Tucson, AZ
USA

[Egon Frerich]

Re: Zope 3



Steve Juranich schrieb am 25.04.2006 18:24:
[color=blue]
> bruno at modulix wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Actually, the OP was asking about Zope3, which is a *very* different
>> beast.[/color]
>
> Okay, so my ignorance is showing (/me pauses to stuff it back where it
> belongs). So is there some big master diff, along the lines of "What's new
> in Python X.X" that I could look at to get an idea of what z3 has that 2.9
> (which I'm currently still cutting my teeth on) doesn't? I've looked at
> the documentation on the main Zope page (zope.org) and all of the documents
> I've seen are apparently geared towards Zope 2.X. Where are the Zope3
> docs?[/color]

For example:

http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/FrontPage/Zope3Book

[color=blue]
>
> Thanks.
>[/color]

--
Egon Frerich, Freudenbergstr. 16, 28213 Bremen

E-Mail: e.frerich@nord-com.net

[akameswaran@gmail.com]

Re: Zope 3

I have been using ZOPE (mostly with CMF/Plone) for a couple years now.
MY recolleciton of the initial leraning curve, was hours reading
through source code, newsgroups, web site, outdated garbage, days long
marathons of coffee, beer and very little sleep.

After about 2 weeks of this horrible mindnumbing headache - the eureka
moment hit, and it has proven itself to be a fairly robust application
server environment, and has really delivered for me in terms of being
able to quickle create web apps.

I would say though the question of Zope is not a question of
implementation language - it is it's own thing. I think a lot of the
talk of adding typing to python has emerged from the Zope camp. So the
question you should ask yourself, not do I want to use python or php -
it's more do I want to use Zope? Zope is pretty well supported and
seems to have a good bit of momentum (compared to other python based
app servers)

My experince is that the learning curve is steep, and the path is
heavily littered with debris. But, once the initial curve is passed -
the results seems almost magical (at least compared to other app server
environments I have worked with)

[Rene Pijlman]

Re: Zope 3

Steve Juranich:[color=blue]
>is there some big master diff, along the lines of "What's new
>in Python X.X" that I could look at to get an idea of what z3 has that 2.9
>(which I'm currently still cutting my teeth on) doesn't?[/color]

It's a redesign.
Z2: mixin base classes
Z3: component architecture with interfaces
[color=blue]
>Where are the Zope3 docs?[/color]

Google!

--
René Pijlman

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: Zope 3

Steve Juranich a écrit :[color=blue]
> bruno at modulix wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>Actually, the OP was asking about Zope3, which is a *very* different
>>beast.[/color]
>
>
> Okay, so my ignorance is showing (/me pauses to stuff it back where it
> belongs). So is there some big master diff, along the lines of "What's new
> in Python X.X" that I could look at to get an idea of what z3 has that 2.9
> (which I'm currently still cutting my teeth on) doesn't?[/color]

This is not an incremental change, it's a complete redesign and rewrite
and a different architecture. Almost nothing of what you learn with Zope
2.x will hold with Zope3.
[color=blue]
> I've looked at
> the documentation on the main Zope page (zope.org) and all of the documents
> I've seen are apparently geared towards Zope 2.X. Where are the Zope3
> docs?[/color]

You can start here:

http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/FrontPage

HTH

[Derick van Niekerk]

Re: Zope 3

This looks more or less like what I am looking for to learn Zope3! As
is mentioned elsewhere in this thread Zope3 is *nothing* like Zope2 and
after starting to learn the one, I knew nothing about the other.
*Everything* is different - from the interface to the design
methodologies.

One thing Zope seems to keep pushing is extreme programming - until
recently, I thought it is a joke, like extreme ironing, but it seems
like a very popular style of programming. I am astounded by how much I
need to learn to call myself a programmer!

Anyway - If some of you can give me a little insight to what you use to
develop on the web using Python, I'd appreciate it. I've heard good
things about cherrypy, django, mod_python, zope, etc., etc. There is
just so little time - I'd gladly sacrifice a little power / flexibility
for an easier learning curve. This will be my first python web
project...

Thanks for the feedback - it helps a lot :)
Derick

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: Zope 3

Derick van Niekerk wrote:
[color=blue]
> Anyway - If some of you can give me a little insight to what you use to
> develop on the web using Python, I'd appreciate it. I've heard good
> things about cherrypy, django, mod_python, zope, etc., etc. There is
> just so little time - I'd gladly sacrifice a little power / flexibility
> for an easier learning curve.[/color]

working through the Django tutorial shouldn't take you more than
an hour or two (*):

http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/

turbogears also have some good tutorials:

http://www.turbogears.org/docs/index.html

</F>

*) depending on how much time you need to get things set up. if you
just want to tinker, and are using windows, you can easily do it in 5-15
minutes: http://effbot.org/zone/django.htm#installing