MinGW and Python

[Srijit Kumar Bhadra]

Is there any specific reason for not using MinGW to build the official
distribution of Python for Win32?
A quick Google search did not reveal the answer to my question. If a
link is available, please post it.

Best Regards,
Srijit

[Martin v. Löwis]

Re: MinGW and Python

Srijit Kumar Bhadra wrote:[color=blue]
> Is there any specific reason for not using MinGW to build the official
> distribution of Python for Win32?[/color]

What could be the reasons to use MinGW?

As for reasons not to do that:
- there is no build process available to do that
- people building extensions to Python must be able to do so with
Microsoft C++, since some of these extensions are written using MFC.
- developing Python itself in Visual Studio is quite convenient; in
particular, the debugger works "better" than gdb.

Regards,
Martin

[Josef Meile]

Re: MinGW and Python

> Is there any specific reason for not using MinGW to build the official[color=blue]
> distribution of Python for Win32?
> A quick Google search did not reveal the answer to my question. If a
> link is available, please post it.[/color]
You may look at this thread:

* E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

http://tinyurl.com/lxfsz

There was a big polemic and it is really long, but there are some useful
posts there.

Regards,
Josef

[Robert Kern]

Re: MinGW and Python

Martin v. Löwis wrote:[color=blue]
> Srijit Kumar Bhadra wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Is there any specific reason for not using MinGW to build the official
>>distributio n of Python for Win32?[/color]
>
> What could be the reasons to use MinGW?
>
> As for reasons not to do that:
> - there is no build process available to do that
> - people building extensions to Python must be able to do so with
> Microsoft C++, since some of these extensions are written using MFC.
> - developing Python itself in Visual Studio is quite convenient; in
> particular, the debugger works "better" than gdb.[/color]

- gcc does not optimize particularly well.

--
Robert Kern
robert.kern@gma il.com

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco

[Brian Elmegaard]

Re: MinGW and Python

Robert Kern <robert.kern@gm ail.com> writes:
[color=blue]
> - gcc does not optimize particularly well.[/color]

But well enough for other platforms.

--
Brian (remove the sport for mail)

http://www.et.web.mek.dtu.dk/Staff/be/be.html

http://www.rugbyklubben-speed.dk

[Robert Kern]

Re: MinGW and Python

Brian Elmegaard wrote:[color=blue]
> Robert Kern <robert.kern@gm ail.com> writes:
>[color=green]
>>- gcc does not optimize particularly well.[/color]
>
> But well enough for other platforms.[/color]

Well, it tends to optimize just as poorly for other platforms, too. It's just
frequently the only compiler widely available on those platforms. The goal of
the gcc project is to provide a portable compiler, not one that generates the
best code for any given platform. And in that goal, it succeeds remarkably well.

--
Robert Kern
robert.kern@gma il.com

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco

[Brian Elmegaard]

Re: MinGW and Python

Robert Kern <robert.kern@gm ail.com> writes:
[color=blue]
> the gcc project is to provide a portable compiler, not one that
> generates the best code for any given platform. And in that goal, it
> succeeds remarkably well.[/color]

Will a python program be slower on the same machine running windows
compared to linux?

What I don't understand is that it is not possible to distribute a
python compiled with gcc for windows. The main reason I saw in this
thread is that python uses mfc. So python requires api access, I
guess.

Once I asked about distutils here. The answer was that I had access to
the source so I could just extend it. After messing around I found I
couldn't because I don't have msvc.
--
Brian (remove the sport for mail)

http://www.et.web.mek.dtu.dk/Staff/be/be.html

http://www.rugbyklubben-speed.dk

[Martin v. Löwis]

Re: MinGW and Python

Brian Elmegaard wrote:[color=blue]
> What I don't understand is that it is not possible to distribute a
> python compiled with gcc for windows. The main reason I saw in this
> thread is that python uses mfc. So python requires api access, I
> guess.[/color]

You misunderstood. Python does not use MFC. PythonWin (for example)
does. That has a lot of implications which are hard to understand
if you are not familiar with Windows programming and the C library
mess on Windows.

It would certainly be possible to distribute a gcc-compiled python.
However, what is the point in doing so? Cygwin already includes
a gcc-compiled Python, for Windows:

http://cygwin.com/packages/python/

[color=blue]
> Once I asked about distutils here. The answer was that I had access to
> the source so I could just extend it. After messing around I found I
> couldn't because I don't have msvc.[/color]

That is simply not true. You can build the entire Python interpreter
with Cygwin (but you don't need to, because there is a precompiled
version), and you can build extensions for the python.org binary
using MingW.

Regards,
Martin

[Robert Kern]

Re: MinGW and Python

Brian Elmegaard wrote:[color=blue]
> Robert Kern <robert.kern@gm ail.com> writes:
>[color=green]
>>the gcc project is to provide a portable compiler, not one that
>>generates the best code for any given platform. And in that goal, it
>>succeeds remarkably well.[/color]
>
> Will a python program be slower on the same machine running windows
> compared to linux?[/color]

Dunno. Depends on the machine. Depends on the program. Depends on how the
interpreter and any extension modules and underlying libraries were built.
Depends on which Linux and which Windows.

I'm sorry, but your question is a non sequitur. I don't understand its relevance
to this thread.
[color=blue]
> What I don't understand is that it is not possible to distribute a
> python compiled with gcc for windows. The main reason I saw in this
> thread is that python uses mfc. So python requires api access, I
> guess.[/color]

It is possible. People have done it.

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

[color=blue]
> Once I asked about distutils here.[/color]

Okay. Again, what's the relevance here?
[color=blue]
> The answer was that I had access to
> the source so I could just extend it. After messing around I found I
> couldn't because I don't have msvc.[/color]

I'm not sure why this matters since distutils is pure Python.

If you meant writing extension modules for Python instead of extending
distutils, then you're in luck! You can indeed build extension modules with
mingw for the standard Python distribution. Please see my post in the thread "MS
VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?".

--
Robert Kern
robert.kern@gma il.com

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: MinGW and Python

Brian Elmegaard wrote
[color=blue][color=green]
> > the gcc project is to provide a portable compiler, not one that
> > generates the best code for any given platform. And in that goal, it
> > succeeds remarkably well.[/color]
>
> Will a python program be slower on the same machine running windows
> compared to linux?[/color]

a better optimizer usually results in programs that run faster, not slower.

</F>

[Brian Elmegaard]

Re: MinGW and Python

"Martin v. Löwis" <martin@v.loewi s.de> writes:
[color=blue]
> It would certainly be possible to distribute a gcc-compiled python.
> However, what is the point in doing so? Cygwin already includes
> a gcc-compiled Python, for Windows:[/color]

Interesting.
[color=blue]
> That is simply not true.[/color]

Actually, you answered me then too. I misunderstood after reading
http://sebsauvage.net/python/mingw.html.

Is the information on that page not correct? Has it never been?
[color=blue]
> You can build the entire Python interpreter with Cygwin (but you
> don't need to, because there is a precompiled version), and you can
> build extensions for the python.org binary using MingW.[/color]

Great, then I tend to agree that there is no reason for building it
with mingw.


--
Brian (remove the sport for mail)

http://www.et.web.mek.dtu.dk/Staff/be/be.html

http://www.rugbyklubben-speed.dk

[Brian Elmegaard]

Re: MinGW and Python

Robert Kern <robert.kern@gm ail.com> writes:
[color=blue]
> If you meant writing extension modules for Python instead of extending
> distutils,[/color]

I thought about extending distutils to make non-python installers. I
may have misunderstood the answers I got.

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/3f721b5a38fbc2d1/7af1aea19aa187b6?lnk=st&q=author%3Aelmegaard+distutils&rnum=1#7af1aea19aa187b6

[color=blue]
> mingw for the standard Python distribution. Please see my post in the thread "MS
> VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?".[/color]

Thanks, I will.
--
Brian (remove the sport for mail)

http://www.et.web.mek.dtu.dk/Staff/be/be.html

http://www.rugbyklubben-speed.dk

[Brian Elmegaard]

Re: MinGW and Python

"Fredrik Lundh" <fredrik@python ware.com> writes:
[color=blue]
> a better optimizer usually results in programs that run faster, not slower.[/color]

Got it the wrong after some editing ;-(
--
Brian (remove the sport for mail)

http://www.et.web.mek.dtu.dk/Staff/be/be.html

http://www.rugbyklubben-speed.dk

[sturlamolden]

Re: MinGW and Python


Martin v. Löwis wrote:
[color=blue]
> - there is no build process available to do that[/color]

In MSYS:

$ ./configure --prefix=/c/mingw
$ make
$ make install

This should be obvious to any with Unix experience.

MinGW actually distribute precompiled Python binaries as well (in
MSYS-DTK).
[color=blue]
> - people building extensions to Python must be able to do so with
> Microsoft C++, since some of these extensions are written using MFC.[/color]

MinGW can compile MFC. Download Windows Platform SDK and you get the
MFC source.
[color=blue]
> - developing Python itself in Visual Studio is quite convenient; in
> particular, the debugger works "better" than gdb.[/color]

Eclipse is an excellent IDE that works with MinGW.

[sturlamolden]

Re: MinGW and Python


Robert Kern wrote:
[color=blue]
> - gcc does not optimize particularly well.[/color]

That is beyond BS. The more recent gcc releases optimize as well as any
commercial compiler. GCC 4 may even optimize better than MSVC.

GCC is the compiler used to build the Linux kernel and MacOSX. If it
can deal with this I say it can handle Python as well. My guess is you
will not notice any performance difference for the Python interpreter.
Doesn't Python run well on Linux? GCC is used to build Python on Linux.
MinGW is GCC. MinGW on Windows creates the same binary code as GCC on
Linux.