Looking for a language/framework

**Alex Martelli** · Mar 28 '06, 04:05 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

walterbyrd <walterbyrd@ina me.com> wrote:
...[color=blue]
> I consider php to be an abombination, the backward compatibility issues
> alone are reason enough to make me hate it. Rail looks promising, but
> it's difficult to find inexpensive hosting that supports rails.[/color]

What's your budget? DreamHost offers Rails hosting for $7.95 per month,
which definitely falls within what I would call "inexpensiv e", just for
example. I'm sure you can find others in similar price ranges.
[color=blue]
> I like python much better, but I'm not certain it's as well suited for
> web developement. I'm not sure how th e apache module thing works. I am
> using shared hosting, they provide python, but I'm not sure how limited
> I'll be.[/color]

What Python server-side frameworks does your shared hosting service
support? Or do they only offer Python as a CGI language?
[color=blue]
> I wouldn't even mind the steep learning curves, so much, except, it
> seems to me that anything developed with one framework, would not work
> with another. So if I changed my mind about which framework, I'd have
> to start all over again - re-learning everything, re-writing
> everything. Of course, everybody says their framework is the best. But
> how can I know for sure? I don't have time to try them all.[/color]

Nobody does, which is the main advantage of Rails -- it so dominates the
scene of web frameworks for Ruby, that nobody seriously wonders what
framework to pick for that language (there exist others, but their "mind
share" is close to zero). Python frameworks may interoperate at several
levels (e.g. through the WSGI middleware layer) but that's not the same
as having a single framework.

OTOH, different frameworks may cater for different audiences: at one
extreme, the webjockey who knows and loves the underlying technologies,
from HTTP to SQL, and only wants high productivity without (what he or
she perceives as) "cruft" on top and definitely without any conceptual
blockage impeding access to the underlying technologies when that access
is wanted; at the other extreme, somebody who doesn't even know the
difference between SQL and HTTP, doesn't want to learn anything hard,
and just wants to point and grunt and make three websites a day -- and,
of course, anything in-between.

For example, I've never seen an "object-relational mapping" (technical
term for cruft that tries to avoid people having to learn and use SQL)
which doesn't drive me into a murderous, foam-at-mouth rage in a very
short time -- I *WANT* my SQL, I *LOVE* SQL, it's *WAY* more powerful
and suitable for access to data than all those simulated "OO DB" people
lay on top of it (of course, that does depend on having a REAL
relational DB underneath, not, say, MySQL;-). Other people disagree
very, very deeply with my preferences (as proven by the existence of a
begazillion ORMs, including general-purpose ones as well as ones that
are part of web-application frameworks). How is a poor web framework to
make both groups happy (me on one side, all the rest of the world on the
other;-) without becoming ridiculously complex and ungainly?

Alex

**bruno at modulix** · Mar 28 '06, 04:25 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

walterbyrd wrote:[color=blue]
> Way back when, I got a lot of training and experience in highly
> structued software development. These days, I dabble with
> web-development, but I may become more serious.
>
> I consider php to be an abombination, the backward compatibility issues
> alone are reason enough to make me hate it. Rail looks promising, but
> it's difficult to find inexpensive hosting that supports rails.
>
> I like python much better, but I'm not certain it's as well suited for
> web developement.[/color]

It is. Much more than PHP.

The problem then is: which solution/framework. And there quite a few
Python web developpment solutions...
[color=blue]
> I'm not sure how th e apache module thing works.[/color]

It exposes most of the Apache API to Python, and provides hooks to take
control over request processing.
[color=blue]
> I am
> using shared hosting, they provide python, but I'm not sure how limited
> I'll be.[/color]

You can bet it'll be plain old cgi - possibly with an outdated Pyton
version.
[color=blue]
> Ideally, I would like to be able to develop a database driven web-app,
> in much the same manner as I could develop an ms-access app. As much as
> I dislike msft, I have to admit, an ms-access app can be put together
> quickly, without any steep learning curve.
>
> I've been looking at python web frameworks, and I'm not sure what to
> think. It seems like these frameworks would allow me to do a lot of
> work, with a small amount of code, but the learning curve seems very
> steep.[/color]

Which frameworks have you looked at ?
[color=blue]
> I wouldn't even mind the steep learning curves, so much, except, it
> seems to me that anything developed with one framework, would not work
> with another.[/color]

heck, this is true of all frameworks ever (web or not, Python or not).
[color=blue]
> So if I changed my mind about which framework, I'd have
> to start all over again - re-learning everything, re-writing
> everything. Of course, everybody says their framework is the best. But
> how can I know for sure?[/color]

Trying them ?
[color=blue]
> I don't have time to try them all.[/color]

Then only try the ones that *may* fit your needs !-)

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb@xiludom. gro'.split('@')])"

**walterbyrd** · Mar 28 '06, 06:45 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

> You can bet it'll be plain old cgi - possibly with an outdated Pyton version.

I think you are right. In practical terms, what does that mean? Will I
not be able to use modules? Will I not be able to use frameworks?
[color=blue]
> Which frameworks have you looked at ?[/color]

django, turbogears, cheetah, cherrypy, . . .

By "looked at" I mean I read up on them, a little. I have not tried any
of them.

**akameswaran@gmail.com** · Mar 28 '06, 07:35 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

As far as languages go, Python seems a far better choice than php or
perl based solutions. I haven't tried Ruby - so I can't comment.

The Zope framework for python has been remarkably productive for me
both with and wtihout plone(CMF modules and a look and feel on top of
Zope). The documentation is improving, but I can's say the situation
is good. In truth, Zope knowledge is zope specific (at least I haven't
found it useful) and it was a bit of a transition coming from a j2ee
background.

I didn't find the learning curve to be very steep, but the path is
covered in brambles - haha. Mostly due to the fast pace of
development.

btw, I am not a zope person or a plone, person - I have however used
both solutions to develop some pretty nifty sites faster than anything
else I have used. Even through the "gettting to know you phase" So
I'm a pretty big fan. That being said, Zope is it's own universe of
ideas, and a lot of them seem "odd". As far as hosting, I also know
where Zope/Plone hosting from 7.95 a month - although the host doesn't
list it on their ads, they do use and host it.

**Steve Juranich** · Mar 28 '06, 08:45 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

akameswaran@gma il.com wrote:
[color=blue]
> As far as hosting, I also know
> where Zope/Plone hosting from 7.95 a month - although the host doesn't
> list it on their ads, they do use and host it.[/color]

Which host would this be? I'm currently exploring some options for getting
a Zope site hosted.

Thanks much.
--
Steve Juranich
Tucson, AZ
USA

**Nick Craig-Wood** · Mar 29 '06, 05:45 AM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

walterbyrd <walterbyrd@ina me.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> Ideally, I would like to be able to develop a database driven web-app,
> in much the same manner as I could develop an ms-access app. As much as
> I dislike msft, I have to admit, an ms-access app can be put together
> quickly, without any steep learning curve.[/color]

Look at django then. It excels (IMHO) at this interfacing to an SQL
database. Its admin interface is all you'll ever need for trusted
data entry, and you won't have to write any code at all for it.

We're currently converting a twisty mass of perl code which we can't
maintain any more into a django site, and we've been monstrously
impressed!

--
Nick Craig-Wood <nick@craig-wood.com> -- http://www.craig-wood.com/nick

**bruno at modulix** · Mar 29 '06, 08:45 AM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

walterbyrd wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>You can bet it'll be plain old cgi - possibly with an outdated Pyton version.[/color]
>
> I think you are right. In practical terms, what does that mean? Will I
> not be able to use modules? Will I not be able to use frameworks?[/color]

It means that you will be limited to what can run with cgi and the
installed Python version. But instead of wondering, why don't you check
this out with your hosting company ? And if it appears that Python
support is too limited, you can also change for a more Python-friendly
host...
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>>Which frameworks have you looked at ?[/color]
>
> django, turbogears, cheetah, cherrypy, . . .[/color]

cheetah is a templating system, not a framework. Django needs
mod_python. Turbogears needs Cherrypy, which is itself a web server - so
it's not sure you'll be able to run it, depending on your hosting.

Anyway - I'm actually developping an app with Django, I have also played
with Turbogears (not stable and documented enough by now to be used in
production IMHO, but definitively very exciting) and Cherrypy, and I
certainly wouldn't qualify the learning curve for any of them as 'steep'.
[color=blue]
> By "looked at" I mean I read up on them, a little. I have not tried any
> of them.[/color]

Maybe you should ?

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'onurb@xiludom. gro'.split('@')])"

**akameswaran@gmail.com** · Mar 29 '06, 03:35 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

ocssolutions.co m offers hosting solutions and will host Zope

**Jeffrey Froman** · Mar 29 '06, 03:55 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

Alex Martelli wrote:
[color=blue]
> I've never seen an "object-relational mapping" (technical
> term for cruft that tries to avoid people having to learn and use SQL)
> which doesn't drive me into a murderous, foam-at-mouth rage in a very
> short time -- I WANT my SQL, I LOVE SQL, it's WAY more powerful
> and suitable for access to data than all those simulated "OO DB" people
> lay on top of it[/color]

How refreshing to discover I'm not the only person on earth who feels this
way.
[color=blue]
> (of course, that does depend on having a REAL
> relational DB underneath, not, say, MySQL;-).[/color]

Well, you lost me there ... I prefer MySQL to the alternatives, but I still
feel validated :-)

Jeffrey

**Alex Martelli** · Mar 29 '06, 04:25 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

Jeffrey Froman <jeffrey@fro.ma n> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Alex Martelli wrote:
>[color=green]
> > I've never seen an "object-relational mapping" (technical
> > term for cruft that tries to avoid people having to learn and use SQL)
> > which doesn't drive me into a murderous, foam-at-mouth rage in a very
> > short time -- I WANT my SQL, I LOVE SQL, it's WAY more powerful
> > and suitable for access to data than all those simulated "OO DB" people
> > lay on top of it[/color]
>
> How refreshing to discover I'm not the only person on earth who feels this
> way.[/color]

Hey, there's two of us, if this was Italy we could found a new political
party!-)

[color=blue][color=green]
> > (of course, that does depend on having a REAL
> > relational DB underneath, not, say, MySQL;-).[/color]
>
> Well, you lost me there ... I prefer MySQL to the alternatives, but I still
> feel validated :-)[/color]

Lots of people I respect like MySQL, I just can't see _why_ (compared,
for example, to PostgreSQL). I guess our new party will have two rival
currents from the start (how nostalgically Italian!-)...

Alex

**Magnus Lycka** · Mar 30 '06, 01:15 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

Steve Juranich wrote:[color=blue]
> akameswaran@gma il.com wrote:
>[color=green]
>> As far as hosting, I also know
>> where Zope/Plone hosting from 7.95 a month - although the host doesn't
>> list it on their ads, they do use and host it.[/color]
>
> Which host would this be? I'm currently exploring some options for getting
> a Zope site hosted.[/color]

Virtual servers is getting cheaper and cheaper. That's obviously
a viable way to host Zope, if you don't mind being your own sysop.

**akameswaran@gmail.com** · Mar 30 '06, 02:25 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

Actually I recently went from a managed hosting to a virtual host via
XEN, it's been great value for the cost

**walterbyrd** · Mar 31 '06, 08:05 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

I am presently looking at a commercial product called dbqwiksite. I
generates php code.

I know that sounds lame, but the demos were impressive.

If I could get the product to work like they show in the demos it would
be great.

It uses ODBC to connect to a mysql database; but I can't get it to work.

**walterbyrd** · Mar 31 '06, 08:05 PM

Re: Looking for a language/framework

I am presently looking at a commercial product called dbqwiksite. I
generates php code.

I know that sounds lame, but the demos were impressive.

If I could get the product to work like they show in the demos it would
be great.

It uses ODBC to connect to a mysql database; but I can't get it to work.

Looking for a language/framework

Looking for a language/framework

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