Python Evangelism

[Douglas Alan]

Re: Python Evangelism

rtilley <rtilley@vt.edu > writes:
[color=blue]
> Steve Holden wrote:[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Doug Bromley wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it.[/color][/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer.[/color]

I agree that names are very important -- Java would never have caught
on the way that it did if Sun had left the name as "Oak". I think
you're wrong about the name "Python", though. Snakes are cool and
have street cred. That's why there are cars with names like "Cobra"
and "Viper".

It doesn't matter if the average joe is scared when they see a folder
named "python" on their computer, as the average joe isn't a
programmer.

Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If Python
has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather than
Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so it
doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django become
very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring of "Ruby on
Rails". They should change the name to "Blood Python" instead. Okay,
well, maybe not. How about "Green Tree Python"? Hmmm, kind of
boring. Well, maybe "Python on the Bullet Train"? Okay, too
derivative. "Maglev Python"? "Python with Panache"? "Python on
Prozac"?

I give up. In any case, I'm sure Django was a great musician, but the
product needs a better name to have any chance of displacing Rails.

|>oug

[has]

Re: Python Evangelism

Steve Holden wrote:[color=blue]
> I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon,
> as a result of which I created a squidoo lens:
>[/color]
[color=blue]
> Any suggestions for improvement?[/color]

Something that seems to be ignored in general Python evangelism is its
support for major platform-specific technologies. e.g. On OS X you've
got PyObjC, py2app and appscript, which enable Python to integrate with
or compete against ObjC and AppleScript for desktop application
development and automation. I'm sure Windows and Linux folk could name
various extensions for those platforms too.

HTH

[Zachery Bir]

Re: Python Evangelism

On Mar 9, 2006, at 12:04 PM, rtilley wrote:
[color=blue]
> What do you think of when you hear 'eggs'? Many people think 'rotten',
> 'smelly' or something that made them throw-up once. The point of
> this is
> that names _matter_ and influence what others think even if only in a
> subconscious way.[/color]

I think you've got a lot of bottled up negativity.
[color=blue]
> I'll leave it at that. I like Python a lot. Technically, it's
> awesome. I
> don't think the language is bad... just the names associated with it.[/color]

I'm betting you won't leave it at that.

Zac

[Magnus Lycka]

Re: Python Evangelism

rtilley wrote:[color=blue]
> Steve Holden wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Doug Bromley wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it.[/color][/color]
>
>
> I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. Think
> about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in your
> pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away.[/color]

I think you have a point, but I also think it's a bit
late to change it after 15 years or so, considering all
books, web sites etc. We're stuck with Python, and can
only do the best of that. Actually, in Swedish, "Jag
mår pyton" i.e. "I feel like python" means "I feel
sick", and "det luktar pyton" i.e. "it smells python",
means "it stinks". That doesn't make Python easier to
sell here... Still to late to change...

It's not too late to rename the cheese shop though.
(We don't need even more stink...)

I think a good example on the problem with letting
techies like us do naming is that grand successor
of Unix developed by the great minds at Bell Labs.

First, they name it after a movie which is famous
for being exceptionally bad--Plan 9 (from outer space).
Really grand company there!

Then, when they make a real product of it, they call
it Inferno, and some part of it gets called Limbo.

They do this on purpose in the U.S. A country full
of religious fanatics, where it's impossible to be
elected president unless you claim that you are a
devoted Christian and say "God bless America" every
time you open your mouth.

No wonder the preferred operating systems (except a
boring proprietary one) are still purely old fashion
Unix based ones. Most of those smart improvements
never quite made it...

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: Python Evangelism

Magnus Lycka wrote:
[color=blue]
> That doesn't make Python easier to sell here...[/color]

verkligen? jag kan inte påminna mig om att någon någonsin langat
upp det argumentet, annat än möjligen som ett tamt skämt...

(borde du inte vara ute på stan och svira, förresten, istället för att
sitta på jobbet så här sent? ;-)

</F>

[Tim Churches]

Re: Python Evangelism

Robert Boyd wrote:[color=blue]
> And re Cheeseshop, yes, it's a poor name when you consider that the
> point of the skit was that the cheeseshop _had no cheese_, whose only
> purpose was to "deliberate ly waste your time." Not a great name for a
> package library, especially for those in the know of Python humor![/color]

"Cheese shop" is intended as a double irony, surely? I suppose some
cultures (and certain types of people, especially PHBs) are challenged
by single irony, let alone a double dose.

Tim C

[Tim Churches]

Re: Python Evangelism

Douglas Alan wrote:[color=blue]
> Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If Python
> has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather than
> Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so it
> doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django become
> very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring of "Ruby on
> Rails". They should change the name to "Blood Python" instead. Okay,
> well, maybe not. How about "Green Tree Python"? Hmmm, kind of
> boring. Well, maybe "Python on the Bullet Train"? Okay, too
> derivative. "Maglev Python"? "Python with Panache"? "Python on
> Prozac"?[/color]

How about Amethyst? As in "amethyst python" - see

http://www.stthomasschool.org/Classrooms/ausnz/AmPython.htm

Of course, although amethyst was originally considered a "cardinal gem"
alongside ruby, it no longer is since huge quantities were discovered in
Brazil - at least, that's what is says here:

http://www.answers.com/topic/gemstone-1

[color=blue]
> I give up. In any case, I'm sure Django was a great musician, but the
> product needs a better name to have any chance of displacing Rails.[/color]

I find the Django name tres cool and am considering changing the names
of two Python projects on which I am working to Thelonious and Miles.

Tim C

[Terry Hancock]

Re: Python Evangelism

On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 20:21:59 +0100
Magnus Lycka <lycka@carmen.s e> wrote:[color=blue]
> It's not too late to rename the cheese shop though.
> (We don't need even more stink...)[/color]

I love cheese, so no problem on that score. But the
problem is, if you actually know where "Python" comes
from, you are likely to suspect that said site contains
no cheese.

I think even GvR mentioned this at PyCon. ;-)

OTOH, I guess ironic naming can be cool, too.

I'm still a little put off by "Dogpile" though. And
isn't there a language called "brainfuck" or something?

So "python" is hardly the worst.

Reminds me of Slartibartfast' s original name in the
Hitchhiker's radio scripts -- the point being that he
has this really embarrassing name and doesn't want to
talk about it. The original joke was funnier (but
unbroadcastable ). Even now I'm wondering if some
filter is going to kill this message.

Anyway, "python" could theoretically apply the
"bad=good" marketing, although something venomous
would probably be more effective.

Cheers,
Terry

--
Terry Hancock (hancock@Anansi Spaceworks.com)
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com

[Andrew Gwozdziewycz]

Re: Python Evangelism

> I agree that names are very important -- Java would never have caught[color=blue]
> on the way that it did if Sun had left the name as "Oak". I think
> you're wrong about the name "Python", though. Snakes are cool and
> have street cred. That's why there are cars with names like "Cobra"
> and "Viper".
>
> It doesn't matter if the average joe is scared when they see a folder
> named "python" on their computer, as the average joe isn't a
> programmer.
>
> Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If Python
> has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather than
> Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so it
> doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django become
> very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring of "Ruby on
> Rails". They should change the name to "Blood Python" instead. Okay,
> well, maybe not. How about "Green Tree Python"? Hmmm, kind of
> boring. Well, maybe "Python on the Bullet Train"? Okay, too
> derivative. "Maglev Python"? "Python with Panache"? "Python on
> Prozac"?
>[/color]

I'll admit "Ruby on Rails" is a clever name. The fact that you mention
it "didn't catch on"
is only partially true. Popular? Not by any means, but there were a
good number of users
before Rails. Quite a lot of libraries and a very usable language.
Rails did however
jump start it's new career as the definitive web2.0 language, but who
cares? Not me!

We're talking python here. There's no need for Python to have "Python
on Cables" or
some other equally stupid named project. Python doesn't even need to
be the definitive web
language. Who cares? Use it if you want to to build a website. Hell I
like django quite
a bit, but anyone writing something for django knows it's written in
python. Anyone
writing something with Ruby On Rails knows that ruby is the language
behind it. Does
some non programmer care? No. If some non-programmer decided to
create a new web
app, and his friend said, 'I hear django is quick and oh, it use's
this really cool easy to learn
language python,' What's the difference? Is calling it Python on Trees
any different? The
guy doesn't know what python on is, let alone why it's on trees?


---
Andrew Gwozdziewycz
apgwoz@gmail.co m

http://ihadagreatview.org

http://and.rovir.us

[UrsusMaximus@gmail.com]

Re: Python Evangelism

Python is a friendly name, like Mickey Mouse. If you saw a real mouse
(or worse, a rat), you wouldn't likely fall in love with it; but Mickey
is about as good a marketing icon as any in history.

Python also has staying power. Snakes may be scary and even dangerous,
but they get respect; think about the symbol for medical science.

A friendly snake is a good snake, and the Python logo snake is very
friendly.

In fact, If there's one word I would suggest as a slogan for Python,
it's "friendly". Python is friendly for Linux users, friendly for Mac
OS X users, friendly for Windows users, friendly to JVM users, and
handheld users; friendly for web server programmers, client-side GUI
programmers, etc.

Python has a friendly community, is friendly to experts, and friendly
to newbies.

Heck, we're even friendly to other programming language communities
;-)))

Ron Stephens
Python411

https://www.awaretek.com/python/index.html

[John Pote]

Re: Python Evangelism


"Steve Holden" <steve@holdenwe b.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.29 40.1141897905.2 7775.python-list@python.org ...

This thread was great entertainment at the end of today reading down the
screen with a beer going down on the side. Here's my penny's worth:

Over this side of the pond the good old British Post Office changed its name
to 'Consignia' in 2001. After a year and a bit they chucked the fancy new
name for the old one - 'Post Office'. Although I scan the trade rags I
missed the editorial announcing hp re-branding some of its products (test
and measurement) Agilent and it confused me for some time as I saw Agilent
products advertised that looked just like hp ones. (And I still think of my
"Agilent" oscilloscope as an 'hp', this probably reflects my middle years!)

As no one in this thread has said why Python is so good here's my reasons.

The text
print "hello world"
stuck in a file and executed actually works and does exactly what it says on
the tin - great for knocking up simple procedural scripts. On the other hand
there's lots of freely available modules in the standard lib and 'out there'
for doing full blown OO programming for complex multi-threaded apps. (I'm
currently looking at Twisted for a distributed internet app - looks good so
far)

wxPython + Glade I'm finding is a good combination for putting together
Python + GUI apps.

No compile then link (while I go and make a coffee, stare out the window . .
.. ) stage, write once run anywhere.

what's in a name? fortran, algol, rexx, hope, haskell, pascal, modula,
eiffel, B, C, J, tcl, pearl, ruby, rebol, cobol, basic, vb, .net, assembler,
forth, snobol, ada, prolog, simula, smalltalk, oberon, dylan, bob, ML et al
ad nauseum.
- is Python any less meaningful? Anyway I LIKE the chesse shop sketch!

active news group that's always been helpful

One language does full blown apps and simple desktop scripts.

It's more readable than other languages I've looked at.
[color=blue]
>
> Any suggestions for improvement?
>[/color]

Well yes,
mainly documentation - especially exceptions. The principle of exceptions is
described well in the reference manual and standard books. What I mean is
the ref manual often buries exception details in the text description and
gives only outline detail of the exception's cause(s) and details of the
exception object. Some lib modules do state that other exceptions may be
thrown but unless they are listed how can robust programmes be written? The
httplib does list the HTTPException based exceptions but there is no mention
of the 'socket' exceptions that can be thrown. This leaves the programmer
with using a catch all (frowned upon) or scanning through hundreds/thousands
of lines of code in possibly deeply nested modules.

The beer's run out so I'll stop here.

keep at it everyone, best regards,

John Pote

[Kay Schluehr]

Re: Python Evangelism

Magnus Lycka wrote:
[color=blue]
> They do this on purpose in the U.S. A country full
> of religious fanatics, where it's impossible to be
> elected president unless you claim that you are a
> devoted Christian and say "God bless America" every
> time you open your mouth.[/color]

Maybe Pythonistas should make a cultural investment in emergent
markets?

http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm

Kay

[Tim Churches]

Re: Python Evangelism

Kay Schluehr wrote:[color=blue]
> Magnus Lycka wrote:
>[color=green]
>> They do this on purpose in the U.S. A country full
>> of religious fanatics, where it's impossible to be
>> elected president unless you claim that you are a
>> devoted Christian and say "God bless America" every
>> time you open your mouth.[/color]
>
> Maybe Pythonistas should make a cultural investment in emergent
> markets?
>
> http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm[/color]

I notice the above page mentions Glykon - see also

http://www.livius.org/gi-gr/glykon/glykon.html

I think that Glykon should be invited to be the sponsoring divinity for
PyCon next year. I hear that worship of pagan gods is, like everything
else, bigger in Texas.

Tim C

[Juho Schultz]

Re: Python Evangelism

Magnus Lycka wrote:[color=blue]
> rtilley wrote:
>[color=green]
>>
>> I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer.
>> Think about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in
>> your pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away.[/color]
>
>
> I think you have a point, but I also think it's a bit
> late to change it after 15 years or so, considering all
> books, web sites etc. We're stuck with Python, and can
> only do the best of that. Actually, in Swedish, "Jag
> mår pyton" i.e. "I feel like python" means "I feel
> sick", and "det luktar pyton" i.e. "it smells python",
> means "it stinks". That doesn't make Python easier to
> sell here... Still to late to change...
>[/color]

In Finnish "ajaa käärme pyssyyn" ("force a snake into a rifle") means
doing something almost impossible. If you have to put a snake into a
rifle, try Python - a bite does not kill you. So it works both ways.
[color=blue]
> I think a good example on the problem with letting
> techies like us do naming is that grand successor
> of Unix developed by the great minds at Bell Labs.
>
> First, they name it after a movie which is famous
> for being exceptionally bad--Plan 9 (from outer space).
> Really grand company there!
>
> Then, when they make a real product of it, they call
> it Inferno, and some part of it gets called Limbo.
>[/color]
"Inferno - the Lamborghini Diablo of operating systems"
What is the problem here?

[Ant]

Re: Python Evangelism

> It's not too late to rename the cheese shop though.[color=blue]
> (We don't need even more stink...)[/color]

What kind of cheese do you guys eat anyway ;-)

It's not the names that are the problem as far as markleing goes - they
are not dull names, which means they won't be forgotten. This is a good
thing! As is the humour - who amongst us are going to forget where the
repository for community projects are? Unlike RubyJewels, RubyBaubles
or whatever ;-)

As long as the names are memorable, marketing isn't an issue if it
want's to be done. For example the famous British inventors Wallace and
Gromit could be asked to endorse Python, ("Look Gromit - a Cheese
shop!"). And there is a successful web-based credit card called an Egg
card.

A Python is a good powerful image to have associated with the language.
What does Ruby say? That the language is pretty? And Perl? Misleading
advertising there then ;-) Ever seen a Python? Powerful, elegant, and
can digest just about anything you can feed it... good image I reckon!

I'm obviously not suggesting we do such a thing, just pointing out a
couple of things:

1) There's nothing wrong with the names we've got.
2) Some people on this newsgroup need to clean their fridges out more
often!

--
Ant...