Python is incredible!

[Tolga]

Hi everyone,

I am using Common Lisp for a while and nowadays I've heard so much
about Python that finally I've decided to give it a try becuase Python
is not very far away from Lisp family.

I cannot believe this! This snake is amazing, incredible and so
beautiful! You, Pythonists, why didn't you tell me about this before?
:-)

Actually I loved Lisp and still don't want to throw it away beacuse of
my interest of artificial intelligence, but using Python is not
programming, it IS a fun! It is so friendly and soft and nice and
blahblahblah... .

I'll be here!!!

[Sebastjan Trepca]

Re: Python is incredible!

Welcome to Python world :)


On 12 Dec 2005 03:44:13 -0800, Tolga <tolgacavdar@gm ail.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am using Common Lisp for a while and nowadays I've heard so much
> about Python that finally I've decided to give it a try becuase Python
> is not very far away from Lisp family.
>
> I cannot believe this! This snake is amazing, incredible and so
> beautiful! You, Pythonists, why didn't you tell me about this before?
> :-)
>
> Actually I loved Lisp and still don't want to throw it away beacuse of
> my interest of artificial intelligence, but using Python is not
> programming, it IS a fun! It is so friendly and soft and nice and
> blahblahblah... .
>
> I'll be here!!!
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>[/color]

[Luis M. Gonzalez]

Re: Python is incredible!


You are not the first lisper who fell inlove with Python...
Check this out:

http://www.paulgraham.com/articles.html

[Cameron Laird]

Re: Python is incredible!

In article <1134387853.596 182.123060@o13g 2000cwo.googleg roups.com>,
Tolga <tolgacavdar@gm ail.com> wrote:

[Tolga]

Re: Python is incredible!

Oh, Mr(s) Laird, you've indicated to a very important thing for me:

Let's suppose that I actually want to leave Lisp totally but what about
AI sources? Most of them are based on Lisp. Oh yes, yes, I know, one
may study AI with any language, even with BASIC, but nearly all
important AI books start with a short Lisp intro. They say that "you do
not have to use Lisp, you can use another language with this book".
Ohmigod, does somebody explain me how can this be possible? You're
trying to learn something you don't know, and you will try to read some
important examples written in a language you don't know. This is so
weird!

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: Python is incredible!

"Tolga" wrote:
[color=blue]
> Let's suppose that I actually want to leave Lisp totally but what about
> AI sources? Most of them are based on Lisp. Oh yes, yes, I know, one
> may study AI with any language, even with BASIC, but nearly all
> important AI books start with a short Lisp intro. They say that "you do
> not have to use Lisp, you can use another language with this book".
> Ohmigod, does somebody explain me how can this be possible? You're
> trying to learn something you don't know, and you will try to read some
> important examples written in a language you don't know. This is so
> weird![/color]

on the other hand,

http://www.norvig.com/python-lisp.html

"Python seems to be easier to read than Lisp for someone with no
experience in either language. The Python code I developed looks
much more like the (independently developed) pseudo-code in the
book than does the Lisp code. This is important, because some
students were complaining that they had a hard time seeing how
the pseudo-code in the book mapped into the online Lisp code
(even though it seemed obvious to Lisp programmers)."

</F>

[Tolga]

Re: Python is incredible!


I cannot remember where was it, but I saw a sentence in the Internet:
"When programming, programmers spend more time for reading than
writing". This is definitely true. We don't only read others' code but
we also read our code again and again and again. Thus, a language which
is easier to read can make the programmer very comfortable. I read many
statements that "Python is a clean language". Now, I see what means
"clean".

By the way, Python IDEs are so nice and powerful. I have downloaded
Komodo and WingIDE and I've found them amazing! Of course, Lisp has
also very good IDEs but even just these two Python IDEs can attract
people to Python. Hmm, or shall I crack them? Gosh, no, no, this is
illegal ;-)

[Xavier Morel]

Re: Python is incredible!

Luis M. Gonzalez wrote:[color=blue]
> You are not the first lisper who fell inlove with Python...
> Check this out:
> http://www.paulgraham.com/articles.html
>[/color]
Paul Graham is not in love with Python though, he's still very much in
love with Lisp.

He merely admits being unfaithful to Lisp from time to time (and clearly
states that Python is one of the non-Lisp languages he likes best).

[Tom Anderson]

Re: Python is incredible!

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Cameron Laird wrote:
[color=blue]
> While there is indeed much to love about Lisp, please be aware
> that meaningful AI work has already been done in Python[/color]

Wait - meaningful AI work has been done?

;)

tom

--
limited to concepts that are meta, generic, abstract and philosophical --
IEEE SUO WG

[Tom Anderson]

Re: Python is incredible!

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Tolga wrote:
[color=blue]
> I am using Common Lisp for a while and nowadays I've heard so much about
> Python that finally I've decided to give it a try becuase[/color]

You read reddit.com, and you want to know why they switched?
[color=blue]
> Python is not very far away from Lisp family.[/color]

That's an interesting assertion. LISP certainly had an influence on
python, but i don't think it's really related - they're pretty different
in fundamental ways.

On the other hand, i sort of see what you mean - it has this lightweight,
magical feeling, a sense of effortless power, as LISP does.
[color=blue]
> using Python is not programming, it IS a fun![/color]

+1 QOTW.
[color=blue]
> I'll be here!!![/color]

Good to hear it - welcome!

tom

--
limited to concepts that are meta, generic, abstract and philosophical --
IEEE SUO WG

[Cameron Laird]

Re: Python is incredible!

In article <Pine.LNX.4.62. 0512130045460.2 5381@urchin.ear th.li>,
Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.ea rth.li> wrote:[color=blue]
>On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Cameron Laird wrote:
>[color=green]
>> While there is indeed much to love about Lisp, please be aware
>> that meaningful AI work has already been done in Python[/color]
>
>Wait - meaningful AI work has been done?[/color]

[Tom Anderson]

Re: Python is incredible!

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Xavier Morel wrote:
[color=blue]
> Luis M. Gonzalez wrote:
>[color=green]
>> You are not the first lisper who fell inlove with Python...
>> Check this out:
>> http://www.paulgraham.com/articles.html[/color]
>
> Paul Graham is not in love with Python though, he's still very much in love
> with Lisp.
>
> He merely admits being unfaithful to Lisp from time to time (and clearly
> states that Python is one of the non-Lisp languages he likes best).[/color]

Oh come on - he loves LISP but he plays away with python every chance he
gets? What he has with LISP is a hollow sham - he's only keeping up the
pretense for the children.

;)

tom

--
So the moon is approximately 24 toasters from Scunthorpe.

[Tom Anderson]

Re: Python is incredible!

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Cameron Laird wrote:
[color=blue]
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.62. 0512130045460.2 5381@urchin.ear th.li>,
> Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.ea rth.li> wrote:[color=green]
>> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Cameron Laird wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> While there is indeed much to love about Lisp, please be aware
>>> that meaningful AI work has already been done in Python[/color]
>>
>> Wait - meaningful AI work has been done?[/color]
>
> I richly deserved that. As penance, I follow-up with <URL:
> http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/ >.[/color]

I think that document actually sells AI a little short: it's true that
little progress has been made with language or reasoning, but vision's
actually done rather well; the recent winning of the Grand Challenge drive
across the Mojave is proof of that.

But then, i don't think AI was ever really the goal of the AI movement -
it was basically a time when DARPA gathered together smart, curious
people, and threw torrents of resources at them to use as they pleased. We
didn't get AI out of it, but we did get a hell of a lot of cool stuff. It
was a bit like the Apollo programme, but without the air force dudes
planting flags at the end. An AI refugee, who worked at SAIL in the 70s,
recently told me "AI was always just a sandpit, now it's become a tarpit
the clever people have moved on" - because it was the environment and the
opportunity to do neat stuff, rather than AI per se, that drove them.

tom

--
So the moon is approximately 24 toasters from Scunthorpe.