Python Graphing Utilities.

[Robert Kern]

Re: Python Graphing Utilities.

Bill Mill wrote:
[color=blue]
> Tha's cool, I saw what you wrote. First off, I wasn't sure what you
> meant by "hardcopy", so I thought I'd let you know that matplotlib has
> PS output. Second, the page I linked to talks about all the font-type
> features of matplotlib, which I thought might interest you. Having not
> gotten funky with them, I cannot vouch for their quality.[/color]

They're not TeX-quality. Yet.

A pslatex backend certainly would be interesting. A Gnuplot backend
would probably not be feasible. Does it expose its raw drawing operations?

--
Robert Kern
rkern@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

[Torsten Bronger]

Re: Python Graphing Utilities.

Hallöchen!

Robert Kern <rkern@ucsd.edu > writes:
[color=blue]
> [...]
>
> A pslatex backend certainly would be interesting. A Gnuplot
> backend would probably not be feasible. Does it expose its raw
> drawing operations?[/color]

Probably not raw enough, but I don't know how basic matplotlib
wants it to be. You could switch the axes off and draw everything
as lines using plot coordinates, but I don't know how sensible this
would be.

On the other hand, the "pslatex" output of Gnuplot is one of the
very few things that hold me there. If matplotlib produced
something equivalent, (at least) I wouldn't call for a Gnuplot
backend anymore.

Tschö,
Torsten.

--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus

[Fernando Perez]

Re: Python Graphing Utilities.

Torsten Bronger wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hallöchen!
>
> Fernando Perez <fperez.net@gma il.com> writes:
>[color=green]
>> [...]
>>
>> And I'd also second the matplotlib suggestion, to which I've by
>> now fully switched after years of faithful gnuplot usage.
>> Matplotlib is very good, has an active development community, and
>> it is designed from the ground up not only as a library for
>> rendering plots to screen/disk, but also for embedding into guis
>> (with support for Tk, WX, GTK, QT and FLTK).[/color]
>
> Why not for Gnuplot, by the way?
>
> On sceen, matplotlib looks extremely good, however, I still need
> Gnuplot for the hardcopy version[*]. It *seems* to me that the
> programming interfaces are quite different, so a Gnuplot backend for
> matplotlib would be helpful for me.[/color]

Well, it's true that the latex-type (called mathtext) support in matplotlib is
not really up to par with true latex (kerning is off in places, mixed
text/math doesn't work well, etc). I've been willing to live with it so far,
but an alternative option is to use the PS backend and then play psfrag
tricks. I've yet to experiment with it, but it might (with some additional
handywork) give final results identical to those of the pslatex backend in
gnuplot.

I used gnuplot for about 14 years, so I'm not about to bash it: it's a
fantastic tool. But there are a number of things it simply can't offer due to
its design as a standalone program, which matplotlib (being a library/widget
collection) can do much better. And John Hunter (matplotlib's author) has
been _extremely_ receptive to my long list of "gnuplot has this and I won't
switch to matplotlib until you add it" requests. Today, mpl has a number of
things which have been added by explicitly trying to match either features,
performance or quality against gnuplot after my repeated pestering to him.
Given these improvements (many of them quite recent), I finally made the
switch and I'm extremely happy. Even though rough edges remain (like the tex
support), I'm confident that the quality of the library and the team behind it
is such, that they'll be overcome in short order.

But again, this shouldn't be read as anything against gnuplot: it's a very good
tool, M. Haggerty's python support makes it a pleasure to use from python, and
if it does what you need, by all means use it! I just wanted to fill in a bit
the picture regarding matplotlib, just to be fair to John and his dedicated
team.

Regards,

f

[Torsten Bronger]

Re: Python Graphing Utilities.

Hallöchen!

Fernando Perez <fperez.net@gma il.com> writes:
[color=blue]
> [...]
>
> Well, it's true that the latex-type (called mathtext) support in
> matplotlib is not really up to par with true latex (kerning is off
> in places, mixed text/math doesn't work well, etc). I've been
> willing to live with it so far, but an alternative option is to
> use the PS backend and then play psfrag tricks.[/color]

The problem is that mostly, you'll have a *lot* to substitute.
[color=blue]
> I've yet to experiment with it, but it might (with some additional
> handywork) give final results identical to those of the pslatex
> backend in gnuplot.[/color]

What do you mean with this? Do you want to mimic TeX's quality as a
typesetter, or do you think the goal should be output in real LaTeX
format (like pslatex does)? The latter would be more useful in my
opinion, and much easier, too.
[color=blue]
> [...] But there are a number of things it simply can't offer due
> to its design as a standalone program, which matplotlib (being a
> library/widget collection) can do much better. [...] I finally
> made the switch and I'm extremely happy.[/color]

I'm not a fanatic Gnuplot user either. I use it for 11 years, and I
like exactly two things about it: its simplicity and the pslatex
backend. I think for my thesis I'll still use it, because its
integration in a batch process that builds my thesis is much easier
than to write Python programs.

But if you have measurement programs in Python (I work in a project
making this feasible) with on-line plots with mpl, it'd be nice to
have the possibility to direct them to a file for high-quality
typesetting as well.

Tschö,
Torsten.

--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus

[Robert Kern]

Re: Python Graphing Utilities.

Torsten Bronger wrote:[color=blue]
> Hallöchen!
>
> Fernando Perez <fperez.net@gma il.com> writes:[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>>I've yet to experiment with it, but it might (with some additional
>>handywork) give final results identical to those of the pslatex
>>backend in gnuplot.[/color]
>
> What do you mean with this? Do you want to mimic TeX's quality as a
> typesetter, or do you think the goal should be output in real LaTeX
> format (like pslatex does)?[/color]

Both! There is a need for mathematical typesetting in matplotlib without
a dependency on TeX. Not everyone is making plots destined for inclusion
in their LaTeX-typeset papers. However, some people, like you and me,
*are* making such plots and a pslatex-based solution would be a perfect
fit for that use case.

--
Robert Kern
rkern@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

[Fernando Perez]

Re: Python Graphing Utilities.

Torsten Bronger wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hallöchen!
>
> Fernando Perez <fperez.net@gma il.com> writes:
>[color=green]
>> [...]
>>
>> Well, it's true that the latex-type (called mathtext) support in
>> matplotlib is not really up to par with true latex (kerning is off
>> in places, mixed text/math doesn't work well, etc). I've been
>> willing to live with it so far, but an alternative option is to
>> use the PS backend and then play psfrag tricks.[/color]
>
> The problem is that mostly, you'll have a *lot* to substitute.
>[color=green]
>> I've yet to experiment with it, but it might (with some additional
>> handywork) give final results identical to those of the pslatex
>> backend in gnuplot.[/color]
>
> What do you mean with this? Do you want to mimic TeX's quality as a
> typesetter, or do you think the goal should be output in real LaTeX
> format (like pslatex does)? The latter would be more useful in my
> opinion, and much easier, too.[/color]

Easier... psfrag tricks can be done right now, while full latex output requires
writing a new matplotlib backend. It would certainly be a _great_ project,
but not one I'm about to undertake, while it's reasonable for me to use psfrag
to fix a few labels here and there to use proper latex. So while I agree with
you that in the long run a latex backend would be ideal, as a stop-gap
solution I can live with psfrag.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> [...] But there are a number of things it simply can't offer due
>> to its design as a standalone program, which matplotlib (being a
>> library/widget collection) can do much better. [...] I finally
>> made the switch and I'm extremely happy.[/color]
>
> I'm not a fanatic Gnuplot user either. I use it for 11 years, and I
> like exactly two things about it: its simplicity and the pslatex
> backend. I think for my thesis I'll still use it, because its
> integration in a batch process that builds my thesis is much easier
> than to write Python programs.[/color]

well, unless your batch process _is_ in python :) Mine was, so my
make_plots.py was a single script, which ironically (for this discussion) was
all gnuplot.py-based, since this was a few years ago.

Cheers,

f

[Petr Mikulik]

Re: Python Graphing Utilities.

> A pslatex backend certainly would be interesting. A Gnuplot backend[color=blue]
> would probably not be feasible. Does it expose its raw drawing operations?[/color]

There is a patch
[ 1027032 ] Connect gnuplot_x11 to exterior application window

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1027032&group_id=2055&atid=302055

which allows to "Connect gnuplot_x11 to exterior application window...".

If you test it, please write a note there and the patch can go to cvs.

---
PM

[Petr Mikulik]

Re: Python Graphing Utilities.

> A pslatex backend certainly would be interesting. A Gnuplot backend[color=blue]
> would probably not be feasible. Does it expose its raw drawing operations?[/color]

There is a patch
[ 1027032 ] Connect gnuplot_x11 to exterior application window

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1027032&group_id=2055&atid=302055

which allows to "Connect gnuplot_x11 to exterior application window...".

If you test it, please write a note there and the patch can go to cvs.

---
PM