web authoring tools

[Brandon J. Van Every]

As is easily noticed, my website sucks. Enough people keep ragging
on me about it, that maybe I'll up and do something about it. However,
I currently have FrontPage 2000 and I hate it. Ideally, I would like an
open source website + html design tool implemented in Python, so
that possibly someday I can fix whatever's broken about it. That said,
I would like a tool that actually saves me work as a web designer. I
don't feel that FrontPage 2000 does this. I'm saying there's a certain
level of maturity that has to exist in the app, it can't be some "alpha
quality" thing. If you know of such a beast in Python, please
let me know.

Here are some examples of reasonable website designs for my purposes as
a game developer or consultant:

http://www.igda.org/seattle/

http://www.cyphondesign.com/

http://www.alphageeksinc.com/

http://www.gamasutra.com

The first 3 sites "breathe well," they aren't cluttered. Gamasutra is a
little cluttered, but has good aesthetics. Also when I write articles
for other people's consumption, this is the standard I'd measure them
by.

I'm not sure if I want a blogging capability, or something more like
Gamasutra. That's a quality vs. quantity issue. I don't know if I want
a web forum. I generally don't like web forums and I've tended to let
Yahoo! Groups do the mailing list job.

I believe my webhost can take either Unix or Windows stuff. My local
machine where I do all development is Windows. I'd be interested to
know about Linux solutions too though.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur

[Ron_Adam]

Re: web authoring tools

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:14:47 GMT, "Brandon J. Van Every"
<mylastnamerunt ogether@mycompa nyname.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>As is easily noticed, my website sucks. Enough people keep ragging
>on me about it, that maybe I'll up and do something about it. However,
>I currently have FrontPage 2000 and I hate it. Ideally, I would like an
>open source website + html design tool implemented in Python, so
>that possibly someday I can fix whatever's broken about it. That said,
>I would like a tool that actually saves me work as a web designer. I
>don't feel that FrontPage 2000 does this. I'm saying there's a certain
>level of maturity that has to exist in the app, it can't be some "alpha
>quality" thing. If you know of such a beast in Python, please
>let me know.[/color]

I've always found a html aware text editor works best. Programs like
front page tend to try to insert things when and where you don't want
them. So you end up fighting the program and/or having to get their
bugs out of your web site. I'm sure there are probably some good
visual what you see is what you get editors, but Just have't found any
I like.

I would use commercial software package if I was doing an internet
store with an inventory database, and shopping carts. That's a
situation where you want your web sight to be in a standard proven
format. But you hand over a lot of design freedom also.
[color=blue]
>Here are some examples of reasonable website designs for my purposes as
>a game developer or consultant:
>
>http://www.igda.org/seattle/
>http://www.cyphondesign.com/
>http://www.alphageeksinc.com/
>http://www.gamasutra.com[/color]

These top three where done with text editors. If you view the source,
you will notice the formatting has good consistent indenting and there
isn't a lot of extra tags or other information needlessly inserted.

They make good use of CSS for formatting also. If this is the type of
thing you want, save the pages and study how they did it. Use your
own text and graphics of course.

The fourth one in your list uses something called SiteCatalyst, which
I'm not familiar with. The web site to it is listed in the source.
You'll notice it has empty spaces and inconsistent indenting due to it
being assembled from templates.
[color=blue]
>I'm not sure if I want a blogging capability, or something more like
>Gamasutra. That's a quality vs. quantity issue. I don't know if I want
>a web forum. I generally don't like web forums and I've tended to let
>Yahoo! Groups do the mailing list job.[/color]

Since you're unsure of what you want, you should probably follow the
rule, 'if in doubt, leave it out', you can always expand or add
features later.
[color=blue]
>I believe my webhost can take either Unix or Windows stuff. My local
>machine where I do all development is Windows. I'd be interested to
>know about Linux solutions too though.[/color]

Here's a good place to start, to find python web site software.

http://www.python.org/topics/web/

Hope this helped,

Cheers,
Ron

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: web authoring tools

Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
[color=blue]
> Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool implemented
> in Python[/color]

didn't you just say that ideally, you wanted a tool written in lisp or scheme?

did you try the one frank wrote for you?

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6df9eb74bfd16310

(for python tools, start here: http://www.python.org/topics/web/ )

</F>

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Re: web authoring tools

"Fredrik Lundh" <fredrik@python ware.com> wrote in
news:mailman.16 71.1113204815.1 799.python-list@python.org :
[color=blue]
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool
>> implemented in Python[/color]
>
> didn't you just say that ideally, you wanted a tool written in lisp or
> scheme?[/color]

I honestly got a little tired of the tone of the answers I was getting
from that crowd, about what an idiot I am. My query there is still
ongoing and perhaps genuinely useful answers will arise, but in the
interest of time I thought I'd initiate Plan B. The Python universe has
a much larger cadre of web designers than the Lisp / Scheme universe, so
I figured the answers here would be of a higher quality. I don't think
Python is appropriate to all programming tasks, but it's definitely
appropriate to web development and I wouldn't mind using / contributing
to open source web development tools written in it.
[color=blue]
> did you try the one frank wrote for you?
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...g/6df9eb74bfd1
> 6310[/color]

No, because although it's amusing, it doesn't accomplish anything I wish
to accomplish. Currently my website does exactly what I intend it to do.
I want to see how long it is before I actually do something about it, and
when people say "Your website is down" it actually amuses me. Plus
reminds me that perhaps I should do something.
[color=blue]
> (for python tools, start here: http://www.python.org/topics/web/ )[/color]

Thanks!


--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Re: web authoring tools

Ron_Adam <radam2_@_tampa bay.rr.com> wrote in[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>>http://www.igda.org/seattle/
>>http://www.cyphondesign.com/
>>http://www.alphageeksinc.com/
>>http://www.gamasutra.com[/color]
>
> These top three where done with text editors. If you view the source,
> you will notice the formatting has good consistent indenting and there
> isn't a lot of extra tags or other information needlessly inserted.
>
> They make good use of CSS for formatting also. If this is the type of
> thing you want, save the pages and study how they did it. Use your
> own text and graphics of course.[/color]

Thanks for that insight. It may not be the answer I exactly wanted to
hear, but it does ring true with regards to my FrontPage 2000 experience.


--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur

[Pierre-Frédéric Caillaud]

Re: web authoring tools

[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool
>>> implemented in Python[/color]
>>
>> didn't you just say that ideally, you wanted a tool written in lisp or
>> scheme?[/color]
>
> I honestly got a little tired of the tone of the answers I was getting
> from that crowd, about what an idiot I am. My query there is still[/color]

You mean you are interested in a web application programming framework in
the spirit of Seaside, or in a HTML/CSS editor in the spirit of
Dreamweaver ?

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Re: web authoring tools

=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Ca illaud?= <peufeu@free.fr > wrote in
news:op.so2yz4b lqfv3if@localho st:
[color=blue]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>> Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool
>>>> implemented in Python
>>>
>>> didn't you just say that ideally, you wanted a tool written in lisp
>>> or scheme?[/color]
>>
>> I honestly got a little tired of the tone of the answers I was
>> getting from that crowd, about what an idiot I am. My query there is
>> still[/color]
>
> You mean you are interested in a web application programming
> framework in
> the spirit of Seaside, or in a HTML/CSS editor in the spirit of
> Dreamweaver ?[/color]

I believe Dreamweaver-esque. I see myself writing articles and eventually
doing snazzy eye candy layouts. I do not see myself engaging in elaborate
flow control or anything terribly programmatic. I want to concentrate on
the content, not the mechanism.


--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur

[Steve Holden]

Re: web authoring tools

Brandon J. Van Every wrote:[color=blue]
> =?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Ca illaud?= <peufeu@free.fr > wrote in
> news:op.so2yz4b lqfv3if@localho st:
>
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>>Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool
>>>>>implemente d in Python
>>>>
>>>>didn't you just say that ideally, you wanted a tool written in lisp
>>>>or scheme?
>>>
>>>I honestly got a little tired of the tone of the answers I was
>>>getting from that crowd, about what an idiot I am. My query there is
>>>still[/color]
>>
>> You mean you are interested in a web application programming
>> framework in
>>the spirit of Seaside, or in a HTML/CSS editor in the spirit of
>>Dreamweaver ?[/color]
>
>
> I believe Dreamweaver-esque. I see myself writing articles and eventually
> doing snazzy eye candy layouts. I do not see myself engaging in elaborate
> flow control or anything terribly programmatic. I want to concentrate on
> the content, not the mechanism.
>
>[/color]
I've stayed out of this one so far because of a natural disinclination
to join religious discussions, but sine we are now talking good common
sense I'd like to ask whether a *batch-oriented* system for folding
database content into a static web site with common look-and-feel would
be of interest.

Now PyCon is over I've been able to blog about the techniques used to
generate the web site at http://www.holdenweb.com/, and most recently
about using reStructured Text in the database to ease authorship
problems for the less-taxing content. See

http://www.holdenweb.com/blogs/2005/04/versioned-reviews-implemented-post.html

to determine whether the overall approach would work for you.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Re: web authoring tools

Steve Holden <steve@holdenwe b.com> wrote in[color=blue]
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> I believe Dreamweaver-esque. I see myself writing articles and
>> eventually doing snazzy eye candy layouts. I do not see myself
>> engaging in elaborate flow control or anything terribly programmatic.
>> I want to concentrate on the content, not the mechanism.
>>
>>[/color]
> I've stayed out of this one so far because of a natural disinclination
> to join religious discussions, but sine we are now talking good common
> sense I'd like to ask whether a *batch-oriented* system for folding
> database content into a static web site with common look-and-feel
> would be of interest.
>
> Now PyCon is over I've been able to blog about the techniques used to
> generate the web site at http://www.holdenweb.com/, and most recently
> about using reStructured Text in the database to ease authorship
> problems for the less-taxing content. See
>
> http://www.holdenweb.com/blogs/2005/...implemented-po
> st.html
>
> to determine whether the overall approach would work for you.[/color]

I have 2 goals:

1) to worry about plumbing as little as possible, as I generate articles
and content. Once a framework is established, this can be handled
"cookie cutter."

2) to create a unique brand identity based on good eye candy. For this
part of the problem, the website cannot look generic. At a minimum, I
would need a facility that allows me to painlessly arrange my own 2D
artwork.

--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur

[Steve Holden]

Re: web authoring tools

Brandon J. Van Every wrote:[color=blue]
> Steve Holden <steve@holdenwe b.com> wrote in
>[color=green]
>>Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>I believe Dreamweaver-esque. I see myself writing articles and
>>>eventually doing snazzy eye candy layouts. I do not see myself
>>>engaging in elaborate flow control or anything terribly programmatic.
>>> I want to concentrate on the content, not the mechanism.
>>>
>>>[/color]
>>
>>I've stayed out of this one so far because of a natural disinclination
>>to join religious discussions, but sine we are now talking good common
>>sense I'd like to ask whether a *batch-oriented* system for folding
>>database content into a static web site with common look-and-feel
>>would be of interest.
>>
>>Now PyCon is over I've been able to blog about the techniques used to
>>generate the web site at http://www.holdenweb.com/, and most recently
>>about using reStructured Text in the database to ease authorship
>>problems for the less-taxing content. See
>>
>>http://www.holdenweb.com/blogs/2005/...implemented-po
>>st.html
>>
>>to determine whether the overall approach would work for you.[/color]
>
>
> I have 2 goals:
>
> 1) to worry about plumbing as little as possible, as I generate articles
> and content. Once a framework is established, this can be handled
> "cookie cutter."
>[/color]
The purpose of the software is precisely to deliver database content in
a "fully-plumbed" fashion. You still have to maintain the content, and
there are clearly no drag-and-drop tools, but a set of database rows in
a page table is what the system uses to generate www.holdenweb.com.
[color=blue]
> 2) to create a unique brand identity based on good eye candy. For this
> part of the problem, the website cannot look generic. At a minimum, I
> would need a facility that allows me to painlessly arrange my own 2D
> artwork.
>[/color]
That's what stylesheets are for, and this design is fully stylesheet-driven.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/