[EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

[Diez B. Roggisch]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

> Unnecessary and deliberately provoking question - python is taken[color=blue]
> seriously, e.g. by multi-billion dollar companies like google and zope.[/color]

Of course zope corporation is not amongst the multi-billion dollar companies
- by now. But who knows :)

--
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>Should a professional developer take python serious?[/color][/color]
[...] - (ungentle babbling after disrupting coherence of writings)

"
Should a professional developer take python serious?

I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a
multi-target automated-build-process?

[targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They
could be added/managed/maintained by community members]
"

..

--

http://lazaridis.com

[Diez B. Roggisch]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[color=blue]
> Diez B. Roggisch wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>Should a professional developer take python serious?[/color][/color]
> [...] - (ungentle babbling after disrupting coherence of writings)[/color]

And that from you.... *lol*
[color=blue]
> I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a
> multi-target automated-build-process?[/color]

Repeating nonsense doesn't increase it's validity. Python makes use of
autoconf/automake to support a wide range of platforms and compilers. As
you obviously haven't heard of these and refuse to google, I was so kind to
research the respective links to the tools:

http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/

http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/

http://www.amath.washington.edu/~lf/tutorials/autoconf/

Enjoy the read.
[color=blue]
> [targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They
> could be added/managed/maintained by community members][/color]

You already found the mingw-patch for building python. It is
added/managed/maintained by community members.

Just out of curiousity: How many python extensions are you planning to
write? And how many lines of pure python code have you written in your
life?

--
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:[color=blue]
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:[color=green]
>>Diez B. Roggisch wrote:[color=darkred]
>>>>Should a professional developer take python serious?[/color]
>>[...] - (ungentle babbling after disrupting coherence of writings)[/color]
>
> And that from you.... *lol*[/color]

Of course.

I respect the "coherence of writings" of my conversation partners.

[If they are in-topic / in-context]
[color=blue][color=green]
>>I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a
>>multi-target automated-build-process?[/color]
>
> Repeating nonsense doesn't increase it's validity. Python makes use of[/color]
[...] - (babbling, gentle links)

Thank you for the links.

They are irrelevant for me.

But other readers for sure will enjoy.

-

The automated-build-process-system should allow community-members to add
their targets into an special "incubation section", which does not in
any way affect the "main section" (which contains the official
production targets).

If an "incubation section" target proves over time as stable and
supported, it is moved to the "official-auto-build".
[color=blue][color=green]
>>[targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They
>>could be added/managed/maintained by community members][/color]
>
> You already found the mingw-patch for building python. It is
> added/managed/maintained by community members.[/color]

This is a one-man-show, which does not invite to open collaboration
(feedback is requested to closed email):

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/98fa42dabff68db2

python [foundation, crew, dictator, ...] should engourage open
collaboration, should engourage _collaboration_ .
[color=blue]
> Just out of curiousity: How many python extensions are you planning to
> write?[/color]

I estimate 10 to 100, depending on abstractional capabilities of the
extension system.
[color=blue]
> And how many lines of pure python code have you written in your life?[/color]

0 (zero).

..

--

http://lazaridis.com

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[color=blue]
> Should a professional developer take python serious?[/color]

yes.

</F>

[Diez B. Roggisch]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

> Thank you for the links.[color=blue]
>
> They are irrelevant for me.[/color]

As usual.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Just out of curiousity: How many python extensions are you planning to
>> write?[/color]
>
> I estimate 10 to 100, depending on abstractional capabilities of the
> extension system.
>[color=green]
>> And how many lines of pure python code have you written in your life?[/color]
>
> 0 (zero).[/color]

Awesome. Without any lines of code written, you have already identified the
areas where python lacks features that have to be overcome with C-written
extensions. As usual, I stand with my mouth agape over your near-psychic
abilities to analyze even the complexest matters without any actual
fiddling with the nitty gritty details.

The day where you team up with Uri Geller - who will make even the worst
code running by just putting a printout of it on top of an image of the
master himself - is to be feared by all of us humble developers who
actually _deal_ with problems.

--
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>Thank you for the links.
>>
>>They are irrelevant for me.[/color]
>
> As usual.[/color]

sorry.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>Just out of curiousity: How many python extensions are you planning to
>>>write?[/color]
>>
>>I estimate 10 to 100, depending on abstractional capabilities of the
>>extension system.
>>[color=darkred]
>>>And how many lines of pure python code have you written in your life?[/color]
>>
>>0 (zero).[/color]
>
> Awesome. Without any lines of code written, you have already identified the
> areas where python lacks features that have to be overcome with C-written
> extensions.[/color]

writing code is not the only way.
[color=blue]
> As usual, I stand with my mouth agape over your near-psychic
> abilities to analyze even the complexest matters without any actual
> fiddling with the nitty gritty details.[/color]

Nothing special.

Abstraction, Generalization, Inhibition.
[color=blue]
> The day where you team up with Uri Geller - who will make even the worst
> code running by just putting a printout of it on top of an image of the
> master himself - is to be feared by all of us humble developers who
> actually _deal_ with problems.[/color]

Don't worry.

Mr. Geller will be shortly hired by Sun Microsystems.

..

--

http://lazaridis.com

[A.B., Khalid]

Re: - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:[color=blue]
> A.B., Khalid wrote:[color=green]
> > Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> >>The first step is to make a pyMinGW project.[/color]
> >
> > You are mistaken. The first steps are the following:[/color]
> [...] - (nonrelevant comments)
>[color=green]
> > 3) Realizing that there _is_ already a project called pyMinGW! That[/color][/color]
it[color=blue][color=green]
> > does not fit your requirements-- whatever these maybe-- is an
> > altogether different issue. The fact of the matter remains that a
> > project _does_ exist, one which people (including myself) do in[/color][/color]
fact[color=blue][color=green]
> > use; and because it does exist there is no reason to "make" it.[/color]
> [...]
>
> I've already understood your viewpoint.[/color]


You just say that you do. Your repeating the same arguments using the
same logic testifies that you don't.

[color=blue]
>
> My requirements about an open-source project (or sub-project) are[/color]
very[color=blue]
> simple:[/color]


Your "requiremen ts" are just what they are, _your_ requirements. And
since they are so, maybe you'd like to address them yourself instead of
continuing to complain how "your requirements" (simple or otherwise)
are not being met and that hence the author of this project is this,
and/or the entire language is that. Enough said here.

[color=blue]
> You have the right to refuse this.
>
> I (and any other reader) have the right to derive our conclusions[/color]
about[color=blue]
> you and the reasons that you refuse a _real_ collaborative work.[/color]


Of course I have the right to do what I like (and as regards pyMinGW
this was explained earlier in this thread); your mere pronunciation
that I have that right neither subtracts nor adds to it one iota. And
it seems to me that the community has indeed reached some conclusions
which any reasonable person with a fair grasp of English can quickly
identify from the nature of their responses to you, here and elsewhere.

[color=blue][color=green]
> > You already found the mingw-patch for building python. It is
> > added/managed/maintained by community members.[/color]
>
> This is a one-man-show, which does not invite to open collaboration
> (feedback is requested to closed email):
>
>[/color]
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...fa42dabff68db2[color=blue]
>
> python [foundation, crew, dictator, ...] should engourage open
> collaboration, should engourage _collaboration_ .[/color]


Oh well, I hope it would not come as a shock to you that pyMinGW does
allow collaboration. Here is a quote from the pyMinGW-24 changes
document:

---------------------
pyMinGW-24-0064: Dec 11th, 2004
---------------------
[1] Included \PC\pyconfig.h in the Python24.iss. Thanks to Matthias
Gondan for the report and the fix.
Quoted from http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipy...yMinGW-24.html


So you see, the collaborative effort is there. It is just not
responding to "your requirements" to your liking that is bothering you!
Now if you want to continue complaining about how "your requirements"
are not being met, by volunteers who make their work available for free
in their spare time, to your liking, go ahead. Knock yourself out.


Khalid



--
pyMinGW:

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

[Pat]

Re: - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:[color=blue]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> Just out of curiousity: How many python extensions are you[/color][/color][/color]
planning to[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> write?[/color]
> >
> > I estimate 10 to 100, depending on abstractional capabilities of[/color][/color]
the[color=blue][color=green]
> > extension system.
> >[color=darkred]
> >> And how many lines of pure python code have you written in your[/color][/color][/color]
life?[color=blue][color=green]
> >
> > 0 (zero).[/color]
>
> Awesome. Without any lines of code written, you have already[/color]
identified the[color=blue]
> areas where python lacks features that have to be overcome with[/color]
C-written[color=blue]
> extensions. As usual, I stand with my mouth agape over your[/color]
near-psychic[color=blue]
> abilities to analyze even the complexest matters without any actual
> fiddling with the nitty gritty details.[/color]

If you put yourself into the shoes of someone who decides to use a
Python product that requires compiling, and that product contains C
extensions that also need compiling, you'll see that it doesn't matter
whether or not that individual has actually written a single line of
Python themselves. If the compiling process is not easy, then that
user will be forced to fiddle with nitty gritty details about which
they'd rather remain ignorant.

On Linux, I've installed and used/compiled products in a variety of
languages in which I've never written a single line of source code
myself. In most cases the process works fairly well. When it doesn't,
I'm forced to fiddle with nitty gritty details about which I'd rather
remain ignorant. The result is usually a good deal of frustration and
anger on my part.

On Windows, most users are used to installing precompiled binary
packages, rather than compiling from source. When you do have to
compile from source, it often requires you to fiddle with nitty gritty
details about which you'd rather remain ignorant. The less fiddling
required, the happier the user will be, and the easier it will be for
that product to get adopted on that platform. No psychic abilities are
required. No Python abilities are required, either, for that matter.
;-)

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org

[Martin v. Löwis]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:[color=blue]
> Should a professional developer take python serious?[/color]

Yes.

Regards,
Martin

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Re: - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

A.B., Khalid wrote:
[...] - (comments)

I've just overflown your comments for a few seconds.

And I got my confirmations.

Thank you for your time.
[color=blue]
> --
> pyMinGW:
> http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html[/color]

..

--

http://lazaridis.com

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Fredrik Lundh wrote:[color=blue]
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Should a professional developer take python serious?[/color]
>
> yes.[/color]

Should I take answers serious?

Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?

"
Should a professional developer take python serious?

I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a
multi-target automated-build-process?

[targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They
could be added/managed/maintained by community members]
"

..

--

http://lazaridis.com

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Martin v. Löwis wrote:[color=blue]
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Should a professional developer take python serious?[/color]
>
> Yes.[/color]

Should I take answers serious?

Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?

"
Should a professional developer take python serious?

I mean, if the team does not manage at least the foundation of a
multi-target automated-build-process?

[targets need not to be supported directly by the python team. They
could be added/managed/maintained by community members]
"

..

--

http://lazaridis.com

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[color=blue]
> Should a professional developer take python serious?[/color]

yes.

</F>

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: [EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>Should a professional developer take python serious?[/color]
>>
>> yes.[/color]
>
> Should I take answers serious?[/color]

yes.
[color=blue]
> Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?[/color]

coherence of writings?

</F>