[EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

**Markus Wankus** · Jul 18 '05, 09:05 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
[color=blue]
> Markus Wankus wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>Google his name - he has been banned from Netbeans and Eclipse (and Hibernate, and others...) for
>>good reason. Can you imagine how much of a Troll you need to be to *actually* get "banned" from
>>the newsgroups of open source projects such as those?[/color]
>
>
> have Pythoneers ever "banned" anyone from a public forum? it's not like
> we haven't seen trolls and crackpots before, you know.
>
> </F>
>[/color]

I know - which is why it is even more amazing he can get banned from
other open source groups similarly tolerant as this one...

M.

**Jan Dries** · Jul 18 '05, 09:08 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

Fredrik Lundh wrote:[color=blue]
> Markus Wankus wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Google his name - he has been banned from Netbeans and Eclipse (and Hibernate, and others...) for
>>good reason. Can you imagine how much of a Troll you need to be to *actually* get "banned" from
>>the newsgroups of open source projects such as those?[/color]
>
> have Pythoneers ever "banned" anyone from a public forum? it's not like
> we haven't seen trolls and crackpots before, you know.[/color]

Well, we don't have to ban them because we have the PSU eliminate them
alltogether. So much more efficient. Or do you think it's a coincidence
we've never seen or heard Timothy "autocoding " Rue again?

Be afraid, Xah, be very afraid.

Regards,
Jan

**Fredrik Lundh** · Jul 18 '05, 09:09 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

Jan Dries wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> have Pythoneers ever "banned" anyone from a public forum? it's not like
>> we haven't seen trolls and crackpots before, you know.[/color]
>
> Well, we don't have to ban them because we have the PSU eliminate them alltogether. So much more
> efficient. Or do you think it's a coincidence we've never seen or heard Timothy "autocoding " Rue
> again?[/color]

he's been assimilated:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> "rue" in str(vars(__buil tins__))[/color][/color][/color]
True

</F>

**Ilias Lazaridis** · Jul 18 '05, 09:09 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

Jeremy Bowers wrote:[color=blue]
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 09:26:08 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>[color=green]
>> My question is essentially:
>>
>> How many of those constructs are already supported by python (and
>> the surrounding open-source-projects):
>>
>> http://lazaridis.com/case/stack/index.html[/color]
>
> This post is hard to follow, but I'm going to assume this is the core
> question, as it is labelled as such.[/color]

ok

Thank you for your thorought comments.
[color=blue]
> The first thing that leaps to mind is that you need to play with
> Python for a bit to get a full analysis of it. Due to the nature of
> Python, some of the things you have in that list don't really apply.
>
>
> The most obvious example of this is "code generation": Assuming you
> mean[/color]
[...]

I want to generate things (code, txt, html etc.) out of my object-model,
whilst using with a flexible generator, if possible a standard one.

Does such generator exist?

[...][color=blue]
> "Use of metadata within the design (on text level [code file])" can
> mean a thousand things. For what it's worth, Python tends to make it
> so easy I do it all the time, but for any given way you mean it, I
> can't promise there exists a pre-rolled framework for you.[/color]

I want to add metadata to everything within my design (functions, data,
classes, ...), if possible with a standard way.

Does such metadata-functionality (build-in, add-on-library, framework)
exist for python?
[color=blue]
> So I can only speak generally. Given your list, you may find that
> Python is weak in the "graphical programming" department;
> drop-and-drop GUI generation isn't as well-tuned as VB. (I, for one,
> consider that development methodology toxic and actively dangerous,
> but I can understand why you miss it.)[/color]

I prefere generic GUI's.

But sometimes there is a need for simple predefined GUI's.

Thus: I want to create GUI's in an generic way, and/or in an standard
way (via GUI editor).
[color=blue]
> Skipping down to your evaluation sequence:[/color]

http://lazaridis.com/case/stack/index.html#eval uation
[color=blue]
> * Create a class: Well, I'll show you this one:
>
> class Something: pass
>
> There, a class.[/color]

ok
-

you've missed:

"declare this class as persistent"
[color=blue]
> * Simple GUI: You may wish to check out Boa Constructor, as the
> closest thing to the GUI generator you probably want. There are at
> least 3 major viable GUI toolkits for Python and several other minor
> (but still capable) ones.[/color]

=> {GUI Generator: Boa Constructor}
[color=blue]
> * Embedded DBs: I don't know, Google for your embedded DB name +
> Python. Failing that, there are several ways to wrap your embedded DB
> such that a Python program can use it.[/color]

ok

Clarification: standard way to save python objects into an embedded db
(in conjunction wiht "declare this class as persistent")
[color=blue]
> * Web GUI: There are more Python web frameworks than you can shake a
> stick at, and I don't mean "some guys hacked together templating
> system" either; there are a lot of very mature systems out there,
> expressing a lot of different philosophies. Given some of your other
> requirements, for a web-based application I'd recommend examining
> Zope.[/color]

ok.

Can please someone name some of them?

[they should work together with simple python classes and the standard
metadata]
[color=blue]
> * Deployment: I don't generally have enough problems with this to be
> worth thinking about. I don't know what the state of the remote
> debugging is on Python; Google "remote debugging Python".[/color]

[I like to avoid interaction with google.]

[color=blue]
> * For your "complex updates", I see two distinct things there; half
> of the depend on the database, not Python.[/color]

It depends on how my python-build system binds to the underlaying database.
[color=blue]
> For the other half, it depends on if you mean "while the program is
> still running". If so, they are challenging. If not, they are
> trivial.[/color]

You are right.

New Requirements:

a) While the programm in shutted down.
b) While the programm in still running.
[color=blue]
> * I'd recommend adding "testabilit y" to your stack, and refer you to
> the "unittest" module; others can suggest their preferred testing
> modules, but I tend to stick with that as the general framework is
> available in a lot of languages that I use. If by evolutive
> development you are including the ideas behind "agile software
> development" (hard to tell if you mean that, or a community open to
> change*)[/color]

I don't know "agile software development", thus I cannot answer you.

I'll think about to add "testabilit y" to the stack.
[color=blue]
> Based on what I see here, I have two basic comments. First, yes,[/color]
[...][color=blue]
> have, that even if it isn't perfect it's a helluva lot better than
> Java![/color]

I've not evaluated Java.

Just it's communities.

Thus I can "dive" immediately & fully into python, without any philosoph
switch (if i select python finally).
[color=blue]
> *: Community open to change: One caveat, from what I've seen when
> other people talk about this. The Python community is open to change,
> but it is still a meritocracy, and you will still need to convince
> others your change is good.[/color]
[...] - (standard library etc.)

I understand.

-

A rational change suggestion does not need time to be accepted.

Just rational decision takers (e.g. community).

..

--
http://lazaridis.com

**Stephen Kellett** · Jul 18 '05, 09:09 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

In message <cu2m3q$km1$1@u senet.otenet.gr >, Ilias Lazaridis
<ilias@lazaridi s.com> writes[color=blue]
>[I like to avoid interaction with google.][/color]

Well, use a different search engine.
[color=blue]
>I've not evaluated Java.[/color]

That is strange - the title of this thread indicates that you have
evaluated Java. You have posted similar threads in comp.lang.ruby and
comp.lang.java. *.

You are a troll.

Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information: http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

**Jeremy Bowers** · Jul 18 '05, 09:10 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 16:44:11 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> * Deployment: I don't generally have enough problems with this to be
>> worth thinking about. I don't know what the state of the remote
>> debugging is on Python; Google "remote debugging Python".[/color]
>
> [I like to avoid interaction with google.][/color]

OK, this, combined with a reputation that didn't quite precede you, but
came close, leads me to say this: I've given you what you're going to get.
You want more, you're going to have to put some effort into it. Lots of
effort.

But I can give you this: If you aren't already there, you're a textbook
case of somebody heading for analysis paralysis. It's time to stop
researching and start programming; grab Python, do a couple tutorials, and
start acquiring the skills you're going to need to do these other tasks
you want to do anyhow.

Barring evidence that you are taking responsibility for yourself, I'm not
inclined to help much more.

**Terry Reedy** · Jul 18 '05, 09:10 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

"Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridi s.com> wrote in message
news:cu2m3q$km1 $1@usenet.otene t.gr...

If you ask too much that other people do your searching for you, answers
will dry up. But here are a couple that you might not find on google
anyway, at least not easily.
[color=blue]
> I want to add metadata to everything within my design (functions, data,
> classes, ...), if possible with a standard way.[/color]

You can annotate, by adding attributes to, modules, functions, classes, and
class instances. You can not directly do so with 'basic' types: numbers,
sequences, and dicts -- and some others. You can, however, either extend
or wrap anything with your own classes to get something you can annotate
(but don't ask me for the details).
[color=blue]
> I want to generate things (code, txt, html etc.) out of my object-model,
> whilst using with a flexible generator, if possible a standard one.[/color]

One standard way to generate text from objects is to use custom classes,
each with a custom __str__ method. Assuming you have a hierachical model
without loops, each such method can recursively call each data attribute
object of the instancefor it to generate its substring. (With loops you
need a loop-cutting mechanism to prevent infinite recursion.) I know this
has been done for html (but again, I won't google for you). Define a class
for each type of element and give each instance a list of element instances
it contains. Then 'print html_doc_instan ce' can print the html doc
corresponding to the object model.

Like others, I recommend you spend a day with Python if you wish to learn
more.

Terry J. Reedy

**Courageous** · Jul 18 '05, 09:11 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

[color=blue]
>Well, we don't have to ban them because we have the PSU eliminate them
>alltogether. So much more efficient. Or do you think it's a coincidence
>we've never seen or heard Timothy "autocoding " Rue again?[/color]

Foolish, man! You said his name! It's almost like you said C'thul'hu, ...
you ... ah.... no, no, NO! N'YAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAH

*insert ripping and splashing sounds*

**Ilias Lazaridis** · Jul 18 '05, 09:11 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

Terry Reedy wrote:[color=blue]
> "Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridi s.com> wrote in message
> news:cu2m3q$km1 $1@usenet.otene t.gr...
>
> If you ask too much that other people do your searching for you, answers
> will dry up.[/color]

I don't ask people to search for me.

I ask people for their specific knowledge about specific python language
constructs.

This is a simple cooperation.

I've spend very much time to extract this specifi evaluation template:

Site not found · GitHub Pages

http://lazaridis.com/case/stack/index.html#evaluation

Python community can 'fill' it quickly with the relevant technology (if
it exists).

The evaluation result can serve as a fundamental part for a _practical_
showcase how Python beats Java.
[color=blue]
> But here are a couple that you might not find on google
> anyway, at least not easily.[/color]

thank you.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>I want to add metadata to everything within my design (functions, data,
>>classes, ...), if possible with a standard way.[/color]
>
> You can annotate, by adding attributes to, modules, functions, classes, and
> class instances. You can not directly do so with 'basic' types: numbers,
> sequences, and dicts -- and some others. You can, however, either extend
> or wrap anything with your own classes to get something you can annotate
> (but don't ask me for the details).[/color]

=> {annotation via attributes on modules, functions, classes and objects}

=> {not available with basic types (numbers, sequences, dicts, ...) }

=> {unconfirmed: possibility to extend/wrap basic types with own classes}
[color=blue][color=green]
>>I want to generate things (code, txt, html etc.) out of my object-model,
>> whilst using with a flexible generator, if possible a standard one.[/color]
>
> One standard way to generate text from objects is to use custom classes,
> each with a custom __str__ method.[/color]
[...][color=blue]
> Then 'print html_doc_instan ce' can print the html doc
> corresponding to the object model.[/color]

I understand this procedure.

I would like to use a standard way, which uses the standard metadata
[implicit/explicit defined].

Does such standard exist?
[color=blue]
> Like others, I recommend you spend a day with Python if you wish to learn
> more.[/color]

I am spending "a day" with it's community.

..

--

Site not found · GitHub Pages

http://lazaridis.com

**Terry Reedy** · Jul 18 '05, 09:11 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

"Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridi s.com> wrote in message
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Then 'print html_doc_instan ce' can print the html doc corresponding to
>> the object model.[/color]
>
> I understand this procedure.
>
> I would like to use a standard way, which uses the standard metadata
> [implicit/explicit defined].
>
> Does such standard exist?[/color]

I am not sure of what *you* mean by 'standard way'. That is probably
because Python and the community is not big on 'standard ways' other than
what is specified in the two reference manuals. And even then, Python is
intentionally flexible in various ways (though not all). So the answer to
your question is probably 'no'.

Terry J. Reedy

**Alex Martelli** · Jul 18 '05, 09:11 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

Fredrik Lundh <fredrik@python ware.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Markus Wankus wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Google his name - he has been banned from Netbeans and Eclipse (and
> > Hibernate, and others...) for good reason. Can you imagine how much of
> > a Troll you need to be to *actually* get "banned" from the newsgroups of
> > open source projects such as those?[/color]
>
> have Pythoneers ever "banned" anyone from a public forum? it's not like
> we haven't seen trolls and crackpots before, you know.[/color]

I don't see how banning is technically possible in unmoderated groups.
Shunning, or pelting the troll with abuse whenever he shows up, etc,
etc, sure. But, banning?

Alex

**Ilias Lazaridis** · Jul 18 '05, 09:11 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

Terry Reedy wrote:[color=blue]
> "Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridi s.com> wrote in message
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>Then 'print html_doc_instan ce' can print the html doc corresponding to
>>>the object model.[/color]
>>
>>I understand this procedure.
>>
>>I would like to use a standard way, which uses the standard metadata
>>[implicit/explicit defined].
>>
>>Does such standard exist?[/color]
>
> I am not sure of what *you* mean by 'standard way'.[/color]

a formal standard (like e.g. ODMG for OODBMS).

a quasi standard (e.g. an widely accepted definition/inpementation etc.)
[color=blue]
> That is probably
> because Python and the community is not big on 'standard ways' other than
> what is specified in the two reference manuals.[/color]

I would say this is a "standard".

Can one please point me to a downloadable version of the 2 reference
manuals (did not found them)?
[color=blue]
> And even then, Python is
> intentionally flexible in various ways (though not all).[/color]

Flexibility is of course always very positive.
[color=blue]
> So the answer to your question is probably 'no'.
>
> Terry J. Reedy[/color]

..

--

Site not found · GitHub Pages

http://lazaridis.com

**Stephen Kellett** · Jul 18 '05, 09:12 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

In message <cu4p2e$edq$1@u senet.otenet.gr >, Ilias Lazaridis
<ilias@lazaridi s.com> writes[color=blue]
>Can one please point me to a downloadable version of the 2 reference
>manuals (did not found them)?[/color]

Well, there is an obvious website address to visit and you can see the
word "documentat ion" on that website without scrolling.

Use Google or a different search engine to find the obvious website.

Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information: http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

**Ilias Lazaridis** · Jul 18 '05, 09:12 PM

Re: [EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

Stephen Kellett wrote:[color=blue]
> In message <cu4p2e$edq$1@u senet.otenet.gr >, Ilias Lazaridis
> <ilias@lazaridi s.com> writes
>[color=green]
>> Can one please point me to a downloadable version of the 2 reference
>> manuals (did not found them)?[/color]
>
> Well, there is an obvious website address to visit and you can see the
> word "documentat ion" on that website without scrolling.[/color]

which leads to:

http://python.org/doc/

which leads to:

Download — Python 3.14 documentation

http://docs.python.org/download.html

Download Python documentation.

The conviently downloadable documentation-pack contains 4 "reference"
type manuals.

I assume the mentioned "2 reference manuals" were contained therein.
[color=blue]
> Use Google or a different search engine to find the obvious website.[/color]

Thank you.

I prefere interaction with the community.

..

--

Site not found · GitHub Pages

http://lazaridis.com

[EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

[EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?

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